 Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, which goes further to make me wonder how representative or widespread David's experience is. I think I may have overestimated it.
It's a bit like the bloke jumping of the Eiffel tower with no parachute who shouted "I'm doing well so far". Like Russian roulette, absence of bad stuff happening so far does not guarantee future safety.
Bode Swiller, totally with you on training. But would you not let those people ski off-piste if they spent 48 weeks a year behind a desk? It isn't after all the safety gear that lets them go off-piste. Do you, as an experienced skier and chap with close links to the industry, wear the kit?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother, in fairness, snowball's evidence is equally anecdotal. It really would be interesting to see some hard figures. (And of course everybody's who's said that there's no point carrying these things if one can't use them, or one is incompetent to assess risk in the first place, is quite right. I am beginning to question my own new-found enthusiasm for going off-piste, actually - I'm far too ignorant and blindly reliant on other supposed experts.  )
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ordhan, yes of course the subjective part of risk taking changes with personal factors- over the course of your life- recent events, intoxication/hangover, urge to get some nice snow in (the really dangerous bit) feeling safe because everything has gone ok so far....etc
and yes I suspect that risk taking is inversely proportional to belly size(squared) in my case.....
as for calculating th estatistical chances of getting caught in an avalanche this depends on
number days skied in avalanche terrain per year
number of prone slopes crossed per day
stabilty of snow on slopes crossed
the chance of getting caught in an avalanche you trigger
chance of getting buried
chance of getting killed in a burial
less chance being rescued
there is a little table in 'staying alive in avalanche terrain' with the odds of getting caught assuming 100days skied/year , 10 slopes/day/ 95% stability/ caught 33%/ killed in 10% of avalanches caught in.
You have to make alot of right decisions to stay alive with this frequency of skiing......
but for an average uk skier- say 5 off piste days per year- rarely if evr coinciding with large snowfall not skiing very long per day.....the risks are alot less.
Most avalanche deaths seem to happen in clsters just after large dumps of snow- which is exactly when most people want to ski off piste........
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vetski,
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I've been looking for some stats, but don't find anything that collates, say, the Alps in any specific year. I may well not be using a sensible search string. Any suggestions?
(VolklAttivaS5 - great name, great skis!)
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Cheers vetski! I have to say I have been very pleased with them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Like Russian roulette, absence of bad stuff happening so far does not guarantee future safety. |
Only a doctor could make a comment like that.
Patient: "Doctor, what are my prospects?"
Doctor: "Death"
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Doctor to patient - "I haven't seen you in here for a long time".
Patient - "No, I've been ill".
PS Yes my experience is also anecdotal, of course.
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the 'my chances of being killed by and avalanche = number of deaths from avalanche per year / number skiing off piste per year' is a bit silly.
that ignores all the individual factors both relating to the days skied in particular, where , when , how, and by who- as well as with what risk management (ie route selection, safety drill, and finally avvy gear).
It is an interesting argument or sum if you are very fatalistic- the odds are low- so why bother doing anything- bad things happen- you can't do anything about it (why bother wearing a seat belt/ condom etc...) but even if you are quite fatalistic- what is so hard about carrying £300 worth of equipment - given tah this is just a fraction of the total spent by regular skiers???? that I just don't understand.
but the overly deterministic approach suffers too- everything can be known - predicted- therefore controlled (not true)- so when something bad happens there must have been an error- someone was wrong- someone must be to blame- someone must pay (- money prison loss of livelyhood etc)- this is the 'never ski off psite without a qualified guide to hold your hand....a SCGB rep is not qualified...therefor do not ski with SCGB...SCGB are all charlatains.....etc etc etc etc.....it leads to a very rubbish sort fa world where no risk can exist- nobody can do anything without a permit/test/note from the state and anybody that dares do anything different is a dangerous reckless fool....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| It's a bit like the bloke jumping of the Eiffel tower with no parachute who shouted "I'm doing well so far". |
I'd say that's a mild exaggeration of how I feel when I go off-piste skiing, though my experience is limited to veering off the edge of Alexandra Palace artificial ski slope in 1973.
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VolklAttivaS5, I'm completely in love with mine...they even have special travel socks!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
I'd say that's a mild exaggeration of how I feel when I go off-piste skiing, though my experience is limited to veering off the edge of Alexandra Palace artificial ski slope in 1973. |
 Now, now, David, we know you're experienced! (probably even visited Milton Keynes!)
You'll notice none of my own experiences ended in death or injury (beyond a few bruises) but several could have done.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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vetski,
Off topic of thread I know....perhaps I should be asking you this under Equipment! I've never come across special travel socks for skis? Do you use Sportube? Or a ski bag and is that why you have ski cosies? Also never met anyone else who has same skis-until now. Cooool.
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VolklAttivaS5, they're the kind of socks that Japanese schoolgirls wear - white cotton and really long (Japanese girls tend to hate their legs, so they wear these long socks all bunched up from ankle to knee). I bought them for amusement in Tokyo a few years ago, and realised when I got the Attivas how useful they would be. Seems to amuse the hell out of everyone who sees them, can't think why! 
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You know it makes sense.
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vetski,
That would be why I'd never heard or seen anyone else using cosies for their skis before! A unique idea generated by yourself. Thought it must have been your own invention! I have heard of people putting a layer of bubble wrap between their skis and poles to avoid damage in transit but that was about it.
No more comments about skis now from me to avoid distraction from the original thread. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's OK, I've revised the heading:
“Anyone venturing off piste should be carrying a transceiver, a shovel, a probe, and a pair of Japanese schoolgirl's amusing socks"
Any other burial or rescue suggestions welcome.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, totally with you on training. But would you not let those people ski off-piste if they spent 48 weeks a year behind a desk? It isn't after all the safety gear that lets them go off-piste. Do you, as an experienced skier and chap with close links to the industry, wear the kit? |
An interesting question. My big forays into the outa bounds were in the 80s and very early 90s (a few full seasons in France and Scotland). Have to say we didn't give a moments thought to safety, we just went skiing, followed others' tracks  . Our biggest concession to our life was a Recco on each boot and we knew some basic rules. Of course we all now know that Reccos are mainly useful for locating the dead because of the time taken to get the gear to the scene, but back then we thought this was a hi-tec way of staying alive and it was a kind of fashion accessory to set you aside from the rest. Makes me laugh now when I see Reccos built into down jackets etc that would likely get ripped off in an avalanche - IMO Recco is basically just a device for skiwear makers to "add value" and squeeze more margin. Some went with avalanche cords, probe and shovel but honestly, most simply didn't bother. Helmets? Didn't exist for recreational skiers. Back then there was scant info available (other than say Eric Langmuir's works) and BASI barely touched on the subject of off-piste safety. There were no forums like this of course, no snow reports, the stores didn't stock any of the gear and the magazines didn't talk about it. You had local advice and that was it... if you knew where, or could be bothered, to look for it. I saw a few avalanches, even set one small one off but was never anywhere near being actually in one and that, I reckon, is purely down to luck. What I did get to try (on the Head Wall of Cairngorm for example) was to probe/dig in the debris of a slab avalanche... I'm happy to report that it's almost impossible. I know that lots of avalanches aren't massive slabs of wind-blown snow but I do know that they are basically killers and maimers. The odds, whoever quotes the numbers, aren't great!
These days my fun is more inbounds and that's thanks to kids, responsibilities and a more laid back approach to the sport. Perhaps I've been lucky but I've always managed to find lots of thrills inbounds. I can think of many inbounds powder days as good as anything I've ever done off-piste but... give me a mogul field any day. So, to answer the question, I don't own transceiver, shovel, probe but I have been handed a transceiver by a guide on several occasions over the last few years. I'm fairly confident with the drill but only one has bothered to demonstrate, another said (and I'm not joking) "You all know how to use these don't you? Let's go". Sadly, I think, like our 80s Reccos, the whole transceiver/probe/shovel/ABS/pit-digging stuff has become (for some) a bit of a badge, less to do with safety, more to do with (dare I say?) fashion, PR, relative cheapness and ignorance. I'm not saying don't go off-piste, but I am saying beware of the enthusiastic amateurs who'll have you believe "all the gear" is the way to go. Apologies to those who really study the art but you're few and far between.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cunners,
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For touring skiers the 'death rate' seems lower, despite often being in nominally higher risk terrain, and I think that's largely because the protocols for crossing avalanche prone terrain are taken so much more seriously - Unless you have to; don't, and if you must at least plan an escape and go one at a time.
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If you take a look at the Piste Hors web site I think you will find that ski tourers are hugely over represented compared with their numbers than off piste skiers.
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/French-Avalanche-And-Off-Piste-Accidents-2006-2007
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Beer edit. This is too serious and at the moment I'm not. Gotta do the subject justice. However: Those stats suggest I should start boarding.. Ewwwww.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bode Swiller, Interesting post. I need to re-think my skiing goals... Maybe more trips to N America are the answer for someone as ignorant as me - more chance of enjoying powder in-bounds, n'est-ce pas?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, The advice is not expensive at all. To hire a ski probe, shovel and tranceiver is a very small almost negligible charge.
I am hiring for 7 days a tranceiver for 40 CHF for the whole week!
David, when venturing off piste you can only predict how the day will span out. Decisions change because you are in the wilderness. 90% of the off piste may be low avalanche risk but becuase of these conditions when discovering a seemingly powder rich are one may change their route to include this area. When far away from the resort it is impossible to suddenly change your equipment and it is highly likely that temptation will cause someone to venuter unprepared.
Out of all safety messages that are given in skiing, this alongside that of getting suitable medical rescue insurance is the one I stand by the most.
Also I would like to point out that many of 06/07 season St Anton deaths were from near piste Rendl skiers who probably felt that because they were close to the piste they did not need knowledge or safety equipment. I much prefer the message that when verging off piste at all times it is adviseable to carry safety equipment.
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Interesting thread. I think that the definition of "off-piste" is the key here as many people have ssaid. I also think that it depends on which country or resprt you are in. Wear the Fox Hat has a very good point regarding the US resorts for example. In Squaw Valley or Mammoth Mountain you can take all your gear with you and not really need to use it but be skiing un prepared slopes and be waist deep in powder. The ski area boundaries are out of bounds (a bit like they used to be in Jackson Hole) and anything inside the rope ismade safe and patrolled. I feel pretty safe in these places in bounds skiing powder in steep slopes without the need for all my gear.
On the flip side of that in say Tignes its a very grey area for me as to when to take all the kit if i'm honest with myself. If you are hiking away from the main areas then its clear cut, however if you are next to the piste or crossing over then it may seem a bit OTT. How many people ski to the couloirs in Tignes and dont take any gear? They think its only a small blast accross the glacier and then a 10 minute hike up followed by a nice bowl and then the couloirs. But how wrong could you be. The bowl is a good 35+ and is also glacial. Any rescue would take a while to reach you and having the gear is a must IMO. But lots of people take the risk and feel safe once they are in the couloir and skiing "back" to the piste. Its russian roulette.
The truth of the matter is you cant be too safe though and its all about personal choice. The club's statement is the safe option, albeit not that practical or realistic. I suppose they hope that by doing that a few people who previously wouldn't have taken the gear do and are saved.
I like the way that Jackson Hole makes the whole issue totally balck and white. Inside the resort ropes there is no need for any gear and plenty of really tough skiing and powder to be had. You can then enter the back country through 7 designated gates. Once you go through these you must wear all the gear and know how to use it. You are on your own. The trouble is European resorts couldn't do that easily as they are just so big. Also within the ski area there are areas that are deadly. Liek Tuffs in Tignes as seen most years.
Alex
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| Alex A wrote: |
| Interesting thread. I think that the definition of "off-piste" is the key here as many people have ssaid. |
Is it? I've heard a number of people who should know what they're talking about espouse the view that off piste is like pregnancy to the extent that you either are or you aren't. Once you are, you have to accept that anything can happen (when you're off piste I mean; pregnancy has a limited number of outcomes). I was talking about this to an off piste guide during a lesson, and he pointed out within a couple of hundred yards of where we were standing (on a piste) half a dozen spots less than 20 yards off the piste where a skier might cause an avalanche, trivial to look at but ample to bury and possibly kill them. Nothing spectacular, little corner cuts between joining pistes, bits by the side of the piste, that sort of thing. They were places where skiers had skied (without incident), and I probably would if I'd felt like it.
I don't think that unsafe off piste close to the piste is indicated as such, in general, in Europe.
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Well, I think it's stretching a ski resort's responsibilities to point out varying levels of danger beyond the pisted area ... short of roping off areas of extreme danger - cliffs etc.
I think a skier takes on pure personal responsibility for skiing any terrain and snow conditions beyond the piste, and heeding any general warnings of avalanche risk.
Certainly, as your guide pointed out, even normally benign slopes can turn deadly in the wrong conditions. I'm researching an avalanche in southern England that killed eight people. 'Closer to home', the avalanche that killed several dozen people in Galtur a few years ago was an extremely low statistical risk.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| richmond wrote: |
| Alex A wrote: |
| Interesting thread. I think that the definition of "off-piste" is the key here as many people have ssaid. |
Is it? I've heard a number of people who should know what they're talking about espouse the view that off piste is like pregnancy to the extent that you either are or you aren't. Once you are, you have to accept that anything can happen (when you're off piste I mean; pregnancy has a limited number of outcomes). I was talking about this to an off piste guide during a lesson, and he pointed out within a couple of hundred yards of where we were standing (on a piste) half a dozen spots less than 20 yards off the piste where a skier might cause an avalanche, trivial to look at but ample to bury and possibly kill them. Nothing spectacular, little corner cuts between joining pistes, bits by the side of the piste, that sort of thing. They were places where skiers had skied (without incident), and I probably would if I'd felt like it.
I don't think that unsafe off piste close to the piste is indicated as such, in general, in Europe. |
Which is exactly the same as I mention below is regard to Tuffs in Tignes. I've seen someone get buried on;ly 50 metres from the Trolles piste. I agree with you. I go on to mention about the difference between US and Europe which is key in this discussion.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| . 'Closer to home', the avalanche that killed several dozen people in Galtur a few years ago was an extremely low statistical risk. |
Too true...as was the one in Chamonix that year.
I ws in Val Thorens in October 1992 with a coach load of students from Chambery and there were 2 coaches of people from Lyon also. I think it was 7 people that died that day when an avalanche came down onto the piste and killed innocent piste skiing skiers. Resort should have been shut in hindsight.
Trouble is its never going to happen that everyone wears the gear. You have to take responsibility for your own actions.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I for one will not ski off piste with anyone who is not equiped with Transiever shovel and probe. If i'm caught in a slide (and I have been) the thought that my companions are correctly equipped to effect a rescue is key in my decisoin making process of whether to ski off-piste. You have a responsibility firstly to yourself and then others to take the necessary precautions. This is an individual decision and I am happy to make it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BOD, do you make that stipulation even if the avalanche risk is '1' or '2' on the 1-5 scale?
I'd also be interested to know which number on the scale you'd regard as too high a risk, generally, even when fully equipped?
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You know it makes sense.
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How about the possibility that carrying the kit could make off-piste skiing MORE dangerous? Having all the gear does give you a feeling of reassurance, and perhaps you are more likely to push the limits and go to places you otherwise wouldn't risk because you are too terrified of getting avalanched. Also, how may people borrow a transceiver and don't actually know how to use one effectively? Best prognosis for survival is if you are dug-up within 15 minutes of an avalanche, so it is important that everyone knows what they're doing. I can very much recommend the avalanche safety lesson offered at the EOSB last year.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Mountainbug wrote: |
| How about the possibility that carrying the kit could make off-piste skiing MORE dangerous? Having all the gear does give you a feeling of reassurance, and perhaps you are more likely to push the limits and go to places you otherwise wouldn't risk because you are too terrified of getting avalanched. Also, how may people borrow a transceiver and don't actually know how to use one effectively? Best prognosis for survival is if you are dug-up within 15 minutes of an avalanche, so it is important that everyone knows what they're doing. I can very much recommend the avalanche safety lesson offered at the EoSB last year. |
great point- this is called risk homeostasis- where risk ameliorating measures results in further risk taking behaviour- but what normally happens is you end up taking just as much risk as before the measures.
Again this goes along the lines of- ABS brakes let people drive faster, helmets get others skiing faster.... avvy gear gets off piste skiers sking in higher risk areas/on days when they would otherwise stay on piste/at home.....in essence this is David Goldsmiths argument- if it is risky enough to need avvy gear it's too risky.....but lots of deaths at risk 3.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Considering that over the years I've had two close encounters with avvies on piste I think this whole discussion is specious. Both of them were big enough to bury me and wuld have done so had I been in that spot a couple of seconds earlier! Also considering how many avvies I've seen over the years I don't think it is as unlikely an occurence as David claims. There is no such thing as safe off piste, and if you go off piste then don't be surprised if you end up cemented into a cold grave! It turns out that carrying the right gear improves your chances significantly, so I think that it possibly might be a good idea to carry such gear 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller", really interesting post - and there is some truth in your conclusion, I think.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| Bode Swiller", really interesting post - and there is some truth in your conclusion, I think. |
'swot I thought too. I think he's more or less single-handedly scared me back on to the piste again! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well, there you go.
Scaremongering has always had its part in folklore! In days of old, mariners used to venture to the high seas, wihout the faintest clue as to what the weather would hold and whether they would live or die. There was a fair chance they would die, sometime or other, as their tall-masted sail ships fell victim to the perils of huge storms. The bounty was the hugely valuable cargoes they carried (viz: the huge buzz of powder skiing).
Maybe our psychological vulnerability to 'the death scare' lies in what used to be the genuine risks of going into unknown places with limited skills on inadequate vessels.
Anyone who tells you that off-piste skiing is dangerous, and that you might die, is exaggerating things enormously. The statistical chance of death, if simple sensible precautions are taken, is really tiny.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Anyone who tells you that off-piste skiing is dangerous, and that you might die, is exaggerating things enormously. The statistical chance of death, if simple sensible precautions are taken, is really tiny.
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That's what I was also saying, albeit in a more verbose way, and I wasn't scaremongering. I believe your statement too and, getting back to the original debate, IMV the answer is "No".
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Mmmmm, going back to the original SCGB advice, my concern is that statements like that remove the requirement for intelligent reasoning on the part of the individual. Surely something along the lines of
"always assess the likely risk of avalanche before venturing off-piste and ensure you are equipped appropriately. If you don't feel confident of your ability to assess the risk, ask someone who is"
would be more appropriate and underline the importance of individuals taking responsibility for their own behaviour and most importantly the potential consequences of that behaviour?
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Steve Sparks, I don't agree. I always take my full kit when I set out to ski, regardless of plans. You never know when you might see someone caught in an avalanche or decide to ski something you hadn't planned to ski.
Beginners off piste should ski with a teacher or high mountain guide and they will use their more developed judgement to decide if what they are going to take you on requires it. For anything beyond the most basic and safe off piste they will probably lend or rent you some.
As soon as you reckon you want to go off piste without a guide or you decide you want to go off piste on a more regular basis, you need the kit. If you carry the kit you should learn how to use it.
For nearly 15 years I have skied mostly off piste and the last 10 almost entirely so. For several years I have skied 18 days a year with a guide and about another 6 or 7 mostly off piste without a guide.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowball, which bit don't you agree with?
You choose to take the kit with you all the time. I don't. I have the kit and I know how to use it (I think, it's never thankfully come to that, which I guess is the ultimate test of ability).
It means sometimes I don't ski things that would be fun, but which I hadn't anticipated skiing when I set out, my loss.
For the last 38 years I have skied mostly in David Goldsmith's tracks, ocasionally wearing a goretex cod piece
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Very fetching, and preferable to full nudity.
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FAQ
