 Poster: A snowHead
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rjs, ah, thanks.
Longer lead time within each turn, but turn radius not really limited if one is ready in advance, is how I see it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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comprex, There is a Slalom example here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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comprex, I don't think so. Those short skis probably wouldn't support you in this sort of manoevre. I don't think the turn has to be long, long, but certainly a good medium radius - not short and it was a response to the remark about the fallline ...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'll pitch in a few comments here to what's turning out to be a good conversation.
easiski, I would tend to say ILE is more suited to arc to arc, and less to pivot entry turns. Radius is more a function of degree of edge angle, and how fast you get to the max. Here are some freeski arc to arc slalom turns initiated with ILE. To get much shorter radius than this will require a pivot, or going to silly high edge angles. http://www.youcanski.com/video/grandi_fr2.wmv
As to counter: it's really a balancing aid, and should be used in amounts as needed for that. Generally, the more edge angle, lower the speeds, and less sidecut built into the ski, the more angulation and counter will be needed to achieve outside ski balance. At low edge angles, over countering serves no purpose, and can result in the back and inside problems you guys are talking about. But even at low edge angles, a small amount of counter in the pelvis is helpful for pronating the outside foot, which directs pressure to the big toe edge of the ski.
One important thing I'll say about the creation of counter: how you get there can play a big role in whether you end up forward and on the outside ski, or back and on the inside ski. Rotate the pelvis about the ball of the outside femur to create counter (as you do when you drive the inside hip forward, as I advised) and weight goes forward and to the outside foot. Rotate the pelvis about the ball of the inside femur (which in essence is dropping the outside hip back) and weight falls aft and to the inside foot.
Hurtle, ILE doesn't really play a role in the creation/existence of A-frames. A-frames are typically the result of a skier being uncomfortable with the sensation of moving their pelvis inside their feet as they turn, so they tip their outside ski on edge by angulating at the outside knee, and keep their hips over top of their feet. It's a habit that will persist regardless of the type of turn transition being used. The fix is achieved by getting more skilled at lateral balance. By getting proficient and comfortable skiing on the inside ski, the comfort zone expands, and the fear of falling onto that ski while trying to get the hips inside the feet will start to melt away. Also, a way to encourage elimination of the A-frame is to think about keeping space between your knees while you ski. Imagine riding a horse, and try to maintain that bowlegged position while you ski, especially as you enter each new turn. This will encourage you to strongly tip the inside knee into the turn, which does away with A-frame and pulls the hips into the turn.
One last consideration in the A-frame dilemma: sometimes persistent A-framing can be a result of individual body structures, or poor boot setups, but that is beyond what we can do anything about here. Everyone should be skiing in ski boots that are setup by the best boot fitter available to them. Only a small percentage of people have naturally perfect alignment. Why make the challenge of learning more difficult than need be?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 13-11-07 19:20; edited 1 time in total
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| FastMan wrote: |
| Generally, the more edge angle, lower the speeds, and less sidecut built into the ski, the more angulation and counter will be needed to achieve outside ski balance. |
Hey, that's the DavidM Base Of Support thing again (not that it ever went away, but I don't remember a discussion of counter). Hunh.
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| comprex wrote: |
| FastMan wrote: |
| Generally, the more edge angle, lower the speeds, and less sidecut built into the ski, the more angulation and counter will be needed to achieve outside ski balance. |
Hey, that's the DavidM Base Of Support thing again (not that it ever went away, but I don't remember a discussion of counter). Hunh. |
David did great work in this area. Especially in the workings of the foot, and how counter and gait mechanics lends to it
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GrahamN,
No, I said he 'looks' crap, but of course, he is doing it for a reason and style goes out the window then, of course, and the method would/should reflect in their times.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="GrahamN"]
| JT wrote: |
| I have to say that the first Grandi clip looks the least secure to me - balance looks a bit suspect to me and he looks as if he grabs at quite a few of those turns. |
I agree, GrahamN. He is not nearly as smooth and fluid as Guay and Nyberg. I wish they had a video of those two doing slalom turns that I could have used in my post above.
JT, I agree, the first guy is way overdoing the arm bit for freeskiing. Just an imbedded movement pattern from his racing. That's why I don't use him as an individual example.
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| Quote: |
At low edge angles, over countering serves no purpose, and can result in the back and inside problems you guys are talking about. But even at low edge angles, a small amount of counter in the pelvis is helpful for pronating the outside foot, which directs pressure to the big toe edge of the ski.
One important thing I'll say about the creation of counter: how you get there can play a big role in whether you end up forward and on the outside ski, or back and on the inside ski. Rotate the pelvis about the ball of the outside femur to create counter (as you do when you drive the inside hip forward, as I advised) and weight goes forward and to the outside foot. Rotate the pelvis about the ball of the inside femur (which in essence is dropping the outside hip back) and weight falls aft and to the inside foot.
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FastMan, Thanks that was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FastMan, Thanks for that. I wouldn't say I was a 'persistent A-framer' just guessing that concentrating on extending the inner leg might bring the condition on. Sounds like I'd have to concentrate on the hip (comprex' advice) and knee (your advice) to avoid that happening. Not impossible. But difficult to practise whilst sitting at a desk. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FastMan,
Accept that these are drills and that skiing gates may brings it own constraints and goals
I think it might be time to divide this thread into reacreational desires and race techniques as I see them as two distinct goals.
I can't recall whethe the original poster made that obvious.
I say this, because if someone said to me, I want you to ski like...assuming I could... so and so in some of the examples, or at least try to ski on those lines, my first reaction would be, why..? If they said they could promise me fasters times thru' gates and that is what I wanted to do, then I might say ok....
Personally, I am not that enamoured with it stylistically for free-skiing.
And to the oriaginal point, I think of ILE as a modern step off the inside ski....... scaled down massively as you don't need to do it like that anymore due to skis etc
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Couple of questions:
What about the A frame, do you point your uphill knee towards the ground or am I missing something here - how do I stop doing an A frame?
When you have got the body over, do you distribute the weight equally on both skis, then execute the little toe uplink thing when ready to turn?
Does this work well with big turns, small turns and different gradients, are there any general rules of thumb in different conditions?
What part of the whole movement, do you pole plant?
Do you lean forward when shifting over the skis?
Do you lift up (standup) slightly when shifting over the skis?
Let me get this straight - you are saying we are paddling the feet and pressing down on individual feet instead of keeping the weight balanced?
Wish I could do this now now now.... Milton Keynes here I come 
thanks
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You know it makes sense.
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Hurtle, My previous post to you was in answer to your earlier quesion about why I couldn't distill ILE into 2 sentences - not the question about why you have an A frame. In 'old school' skiers the A frame is usually because they try to edge only the outside ski and do not move the inside knee/leg out of the way ... thus limiting the amount of edge you can get. It's one reason why we used to tuck our outside knee behind the inside one (horrid habit/technique). I can't say whether this is your problem, just a comment on the most usual problem I see with people who learnt on straights and haven't been 'updated'. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| easiski wrote: |
| It's one reason why we used to tuck our outside knee behind the inside one (horrid habit/technique). |
I was taught to do that 
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, Ditto, and it's a pig to get rid of. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Turning left, my left knee is behind my right knee...gets rid of the A frame..which is THE worst. This is a problem for both old and new school, IMV
Not a huge fan of two footed carves (50-50)on the majority of skiers and you have to work really hard to get the bottom half of skiers in the videos, working. Not withstanding talent and time on snow, of course.
After a while, you have to get your own feel of what is working and a reference from someone who knows, would be good. And the 1st thing you'll have to deal with, IMV, is how wide aprt you want your skis as getting this wrong can trigger the above. If you are pretty skilled, then getting close to hip-width is pushing it, IMV.
I not so much a fan of trashing an old idea for a new one just for the sake of it as you can spend your life in lessons.
Just a few thoughts, not gospel... and look at the variations on a few themes when people are singing from the same song book. Nothing wrong with that, tho, in my book either. You can spend so much time working on this and that, and we only have so much time on the snow...
FWIW, I have thought of a refresher this year...but don't know how I can fit it in...!!!!!! guess, I say that most years of late..!!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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With my compliments.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Another thought to add on A-frames. Back in the day they were legitimately considered good technique. The reason was that straight skis, when put on edge, created only a fraction of the centripetal forces our shape skis of today do, so to maintain balance on the outside ski the hips had to be kept more above the feet. Knee angulation (A-framing) provided that. Drop the hips too far inside and you'd quickly fall onto the inside ski, and the outside ski would track away from you.
Today we have just the opposite problem. Now we strive to help people get comfortable with moving their hips more inside their feet, and learn to tip the inside shin into the turn, so to remove the potential block to higher edge angles a non tipped inside leg can create.
Do we always have to have perfectly parallel shins? Nope. It's quite common for even the best in the world to frequently display non parallel shins, and a bit of knee angulation is a great tool for fine tuning balance and turn shape. The important thing is to not allow an inadequately tipped inside leg to block free flowing lateral movement of the hips.
This is a very important principle for the successful execution of ILE started turns. As I've explained, ILE is only a transition,,, a means of connecting two turns. ILE sets the center of mass into motion out of the old turn, across the skis, and into the new turn. To be able to continue that lateral CM motion to the eventual edge angle we want to create the shape of turn we desire, that inside leg/shin/knee needs to get out of the way. We need to tip it. Striving for parallel shins promotes that tipping. [/img]
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Hey, that's Greg!
That's it.
I'm no longer listening.
All-powerful ski god coaches are supposed to be a mysterious presence on the internets, not real-life people.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 14-11-07 19:49; edited 2 times in total
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| Quote: |
Quote:
At low edge angles, over countering serves no purpose, and can result in the back and inside problems you guys are talking about. But even at low edge angles, a small amount of counter in the pelvis is helpful for pronating the outside foot, which directs pressure to the big toe edge of the ski.
One important thing I'll say about the creation of counter: how you get there can play a big role in whether you end up forward and on the outside ski, or back and on the inside ski. Rotate the pelvis about the ball of the outside femur to create counter (as you do when you drive the inside hip forward, as I advised) and weight goes forward and to the outside foot. Rotate the pelvis about the ball of the inside femur (which in essence is dropping the outside hip back) and weight falls aft and to the inside foot.
FastMan, Thanks that was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me.
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Me too. Never heard it put like that...
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Newbies please note in the old days the importance of the three ski poles with olden day techniques Completed right arm poles is what we called it I forget the acronym though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
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move the inside knee/leg out of the way
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Nice. Light bulb glows!
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JT,
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Turning left, my left knee is behind my right knee
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Er... splat.....?! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hurtle,
Nope... 
easiski,
I can see point 'a' coming into play but how much you'd suffer when it is a posey turn, which is mostly when you might do it, I'm not sure.
Don't agree with point b...can't see that happening in my thinking although of course, I accept if you say this happens in your experience and therefore you structuure your teaching to that end.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, my recollection was that I was taught "a-framing" so that I could still achieve reasonable edge angle while keeping my legs "reasonably" together?
What seems apparent to me from FastMan's pix are that if you rotated them so that they were being taken from the same skier angle, I reckon the amount of parallel, or not, angle to the legs would be much the same?
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski,
When I posted, I then tried the knee tuck and realised that I rarely do it nowdays..but I am not sure why....??
I can see that you saying you could lose an edge on the inside ski with that hip flaring out and again, how big an issue that would be, depends on your weight spread.
The other thing is....do people actually have to think about all this when skiing...? could be very tiring, I'd say.
Talking to a few at MK the other day and within the confirms of that place all I could think about was what was ahead...
Mind you, it was only a few runs at the end when I made a few conscious efforts that I was happy with what I was doing.
I tend to like doing things in auto'....
I know style can be subjective but I can see some modern skiing as ...... most brute force than finesse, and just as we fought against gorilla turns then, I'd rally against them now.... and whilst there may have been an excuse on skinny planks, with super turney skis today, is isn't good to look like you've done 10 weeks, say, when you have done 40-50...!!!
I'll pay most attention to this, this season.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| JT wrote: |
The other thing is....do people actually have to think about all this when skiing...? could be very tiring, I'd say.
Talking to a few at MK the other day and within the confirms of that place all I could think about was what was ahead...
Mind you, it was only a few runs at the end when I made a few conscious efforts that I was happy with what I was doing.
I tend to like doing things in auto'.... |
Mostly I ski instinctively just looking at terrain, other skiers, etc. I might have, at most, one thought on what I'm trying to achieve or change. This is particularly so when skiing even vaguely close to my limit. If I am trying to make a determined effort to change something I have to slow down and try to remove as much 'clutter' from the rest of my skiing to focus on the one thing I'm trying to do differently.
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Poster: A snowHead
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JT, If people think about how to do it when they're skiing they'll end up looking like little robots. The whole point of exercises is that if you practice them on a regular basis the improvements come on their own, and the 'posey' skiing becomes natural. Any routine or technique becomes automated if you practise it enough. Before some people jump in and say "oh but that's not fun" I'm only talking about half an hour a day, probably as a warm up - not all day! The issue is to convince people to actually practice their exercises in the first place!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
Yep, as in golf, train slowly.
Of course, we never put aside time on the hill for that in my group.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="GrahamN"][quote="JT"]I think the gospel according to PMTS in the comments section is total ballcocks though - the descriptions of what's going on (even putting aside the shibboleth words) just do not match what I see.
...I looked at this too and I agree with the pmts comments - the point that sometimes gets missed with using video is everything happens so fast it is very hard to see what initiates a certain movement and pmts is not a unique movement..it is what the skier is focussing on..what he is thinking about to initiate his turn...the result is an extension of the inside ski, early pressure on new outside ski etc etc etc..I mentioned elsewhere that you can't see what the skier is thinking...pmts is about what he is thinking about...well it always has been for me and that's the way I teach it. I thought the youtube comments were ok but I am familiar with the concept. It is a very basic level principle - I even teach it to first week skiers. If I have a group of beginners we look at this by the 4th day. I teach this to every level of private lesson I get - the problem is it works spectacularly and it's so obvious and immediate that they don't need many more lessons after that... but they come back for the sarcasm and mick taking. I am interested to hear that so many here are fascinated by the concept of ILE...it isn't at all new...I was on a holiday ski course years ago before I went through BASI and it was taught as one of many movements then...the problem in teaching all these movements is the instructor assumes that evryone has an adequate balance/posture to be able to execute them - 75% of my pupils turn up needing significant work on balance and posture..at all levels...it's a bit of horse and cart arranging- whereas pmts teaches balance and movement at the same time almost by default. Bxxger..it's raining !
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
Inside Leg Extension
Sounds great, anyone know where I can get one cheap? |
...Good gag. A gag like that opens the skylight just enough for the methane to dissipate for a few moments.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PMTS....I have been talking bolloxxx...hooray..I have learned something....forget my use of the term PMTS...I should have used my own phrase that I stole from someone else and has formed the basis of su much of my teaching ...phantom move....it is a concept used by harb but I concentrate and simplify this. The truth is I have never actually seen one of his films all the way through so I have no opinion of his other ideas..just this one and I am pretty sure i have taken it further than he did in the video i saw. So forgive me for that error..the youtube comments have also misused that acronym...I thought he meant "phantom move turn sequence"...but that just shows how I don't read everything properly. He sounds foreign anyway. Seeing as the weather looks horrid again I can feel the need to expand on this and attempt my first technique/movement script...hello....hello.....anyone left...hello......hellooooooooo...anybody awake ???? NO...thought not.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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krunchie63, the comment I just think complete rubbish was
| olliedebrabant wrote: |
| The PT is the lifting and actively placing the NEW INSIDE ski onto it's uphill edge (tip first) momantearily before you do anything with the new outsode ski. IE initiate the new left turn by lifting, tipping and placing on the snow the left ski before you do anything with the right (what will be the new outside ski) - it happens very fast so it's hard to spot unless in slomow |
particularly as these clips have been cited above as examples of ILE - i.e. initiating with the OLD inside leg...so the complete opposite from what this guy is saying.
Look particularly at Cuche and Grandi. Each of them is lifting the inside ski, yes, and then placing it back on the ground little-toe-edge first, but it doesn't get back onto the ground until well after the transition is complete - i.e. they've fully extended the outer leg, rolled onto the new inside edge and inclined into the new turn. I don't see anything special or "phantom" about that, and certainly not what he's describing - in the clip of Grandi #16 it's almost the last thing he does in the transition rather than the first. Guay does it a bit too, and only Nyberg seems to be making true two footed transitions.
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GrahamN, Initiating the turn with the inside tip can be useful for low intermediates who are struggling to get rid of the plough. This is usually because they can't commit to the new turning ski, so by focussing on the other one the weight/pressure is transferred automatically, largely because they can't move the tip of the inside ski if they're standing on it!  HHs system is a bit different, and the 'phantom move' is overly complicated to my mind.
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I see what you mean...we'll never know what they were thinking unless we ask them. My interpretation of phantom move is incredibly simple and not remotely complicated and - we obviously have different understandings of it. Maybe I will come up with another term for it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, agree entirely with that, and concentrating on what the new inside leg was doing was a bit of a breakthrough for me a year or so ago (there's probably even a post on here from me about it somewhere). AIUI this is a big Warren Smith thing as well (when he's talking about something other than ankle flex ). It's just that what the guy was describing as demonstrated on the video quite clearly (to me at least) .... isnt.
krunchie63, true, what you need to think about to initiate something is frequently quite different from what actually happens. Confusing the two is where arguments start.
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Graham - I read it again and now I see your point - I think the comments were not well worded ..what is AIUI ?
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FAQ
