 Poster: A snowHead
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@zikomo, you’re the only one here who doesn’t get the big picture.
It’s one thing well to do parents indulge in some level of luxury because the parents themselves want it, or wish to shower any level of luxury on their kids. It’s quite another when the kids “won’t”, “can’t” accept perfectly reasonable accommodation/meals.
I didn’t read anything in @pam w’s posts against the former. But I share her disdain of the latter.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 29-01-23 18:19; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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School trips at £1700 are a LOT more expensive than mine and Dr Lawn's at £40 and £50 measured on the Bank of England deflator but I don't know how average wages would compare. My brother in law was 70 in the week and one of his cards had a load of prices on. Was interesting. Cars were relatively a lot more expensive compared to houses in 1953 and beer was relatively cheaper compared to a loaf of bread. I was at the top girl's grammar school in Cardiff and nobody I knew had ever been skiing. None of the girls on the school trip had been skiing before. I could only afford to go because I chose to spend my savings account (all those stamps with little pictures of Princess Anne and Prince Charles!) And I couldn't afford to go again till I was nearly 40! I didn't fly anywhere till I was 22, and a graduate - first flight was to Johannesburg and paid for by a study grant, not me or my family.
All sorts of travel, including ski holidays, have become more accessible, cost-wise, I guess.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I learnt to ski as a child in the early 00s but never went with the school trips which were too expensive. Would go s/c with parents usually at Christmas or Easter. However one factor which made that significantly easier was that my secondary was a private school so holidays can have an extra week tacked on Vs state schools, and this extra week can be cheap. (Obviously not enough to make up the difference between paying out for years of private school and going on peak week ski trips at half term, assuming you were not on a scholarship or bursary!).
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And yes, travel generally has become more accessible probably due to the rise of low cost flights. Like I don't think we could replicate the £380 we paid to Sauze recently through driving and DIY (tolls add up, tunnel is expensive, ferry is slow and requires extra stops therefore maybe an extra night in a hotel etc etc). And the low cost flights are still there even after covid...In November we paid £59 return each to Reykjavik which is a 3 hour flight....it's cheaper than getting the train to Birmingham. I'm not saying that this is a good thing environmentally but there is definitely still low cost air travel available for the flexible.
Obviously it's entirely a different kettle of fish if you are taking a family out in school holidays and particularly so if you have multiple kids.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Things are supposed to get better. Your children are supposed to have a better life than you had. I don’t know why anyone would complain if they do to be honest.
And I think there is a wee bit of misunderstanding what I object to and my intent. Probably my fault for the way I have worded things. So I will take the perceived perception and leave it at that.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Things are supposed to get better. Your children are supposed to have a better life than you had.
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That was the dream, wasn't it, for some people in the world, for a while? And for many of us, particularly the much-despised "boomers", it happened - most of us had a "better life" in material terms than our parents. But I think we're seeing the end of it. I had "free" top class secondary education and seven years tertiary education, access to good health care, never thought about whether I could afford to keep my kids nice and warm in winter. Took them skiing (provided the little sods didn't expect me to buy them lunch  ) retired early on a good pension, got on the housing ladder in a small flat a year after getting married and then rode the property ladder upwards. Didn't think much about the fate of the planet. Assumed wars in Europe didn't happen any more.
My kids can't really count on any of that and my grandchildren certainly can't.
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IIRC the consensus of a long thread about school ski-trips costs a few years ago was that:
a/ Some schools choose to go to North America as the kids will not be able to obtain alcohol, and the teachers won't have to deal with consequences 
b/ The major source of above-inflation price increases over time is liability, particularly the cost of all-day ski-lessons vs. "free-skiing" or teacher-accompanied half-days, as used to be the case. This because either the teachers or their insurers will no longer accept the legal exposure.
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It's all a bit argumentative eh?
Look, people's budgets are different at the end of the day. If you can afford a week at half term up high with lunches out every day then I say well done!
Personally I'm more like Money Saving Ski Expert. Yes, I'm tied to half terms at the moment, but I make it work to suit my budget.
All it comes down to is priorities. Eating out at lunch isn't one for me but ski in/out is for example.
I'd love to eat out everyday but then I also want a family summer and autumn holiday. So you tighten your belt in the right places to make it work.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@prometheus, Yes it was Pertisau, I've never been back ... I should do.
I bet its fabulous in the summer.
They may have a lift now, but probably no Juke Box.
It was the time when Harold Wilson impossed a £50 limit on taking money abroad, that did not really bother me with though with my £5 pocket money for the week.
@pam w, Wow! dorms and communal showers .. I wish I was there.  We had twin rooms but I can't remember anything about the showers. Too many of those 9d beers perhaps.
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@shep, Exactly right about (b). The days when the kids had lessons in the morning and then skied around the mountain in their own groups or with teachers are gone for good. I was happy as a leader to do it, but the school SMT said they weren't prepared to accept the liability. My school made up the cost of additional lessons by agreeing to reduce the number of staff going which seemed fair given the pupils were supervised all day on the slopes. So overall, kept the cost about the same.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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in a word, yes.
Its not really the skiing as such as lift prices in europe i've seen are still reasonable enough.
But travel, food, and especially accommodation prices have gone absolutely tonto.
If you can share with a few people, go off season, and shop around a bit then you can still make it worth it. Trying to do it on your own or as a family though just means skiing a lot less.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@pam w, Your Granddaughter's coach trip for £1700, does sound a lot of money to me though.
But she is a lucky girl and she will remember it forever.
Well done on cashing in your saving stamps ... money well spent, you like me have remembered that week all our lives as your granddaughter will.
I got the money by taking a Saturday job in a Motorcycle shop, but mostly an insurance that expired when I was 14.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Things are supposed to get better. Your children are supposed to have a better life than you had.
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That was the dream, wasn't it, for some people in the world, for a while? And for many of us, particularly the much-despised "boomers", it happened - most of us had a "better life" in material terms than our parents. But I think we're seeing the end of it. I had "free" top class secondary education and seven years tertiary education, access to good health care, never thought about whether I could afford to keep my kids nice and warm in winter. Took them skiing (provided the little sods didn't expect me to buy them lunch ) retired early on a good pension, got on the housing ladder in a small flat a year after getting married and then rode the property ladder upwards. Didn't think much about the fate of the planet. Assumed wars in Europe didn't happen any more.
My kids can't really count on any of that and my grandchildren certainly can't. |
Things are getting better. It’s just our expectation quite often exceeds reality.
The “dream” of children having a substantially better life than their parents can only be very noticeable for those parents at the lower half of the social ladder. But once the generation (or two) of parents approaches the top end of the social ladder, there’s limited places “up” to go. Then, even if life is getting better, we don’t feel it any more.
Trouble is, posters on this board, many of whom are closer to the top end than the bottom end of the social ladder, tend to take what got us here for granted, and still expect the next generation to have an easier time than us, AND reach higher in their life position.
Free education is still available for all. But now we question about the quality of that “free” education and many choose to pay for “better” quality of it. Same with healthcare.
Peace in Europe had always been precarious. Nuclear annihilation scare was real for some part of our lifetime. Fate of the planet was part of that scare too.
It’s nature that parents wish to provide for their children to have a “better” life. But sometimes people forget there’re periods of rapid improvement of our life and there’re also slow period too.
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Things are supposed to get better. Your children are supposed to have a better life than you had.
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That was the dream, wasn't it, for some people in the world, for a while? And for many of us, particularly the much-despised "boomers", it happened - most of us had a "better life" in material terms than our parents. But I think we're seeing the end of it. I had "free" top class secondary education and seven years tertiary education, access to good health care, never thought about whether I could afford to keep my kids nice and warm in winter. Took them skiing (provided the little sods didn't expect me to buy them lunch ) retired early on a good pension, got on the housing ladder in a small flat a year after getting married and then rode the property ladder upwards. Didn't think much about the fate of the planet. Assumed wars in Europe didn't happen any more.
My kids can't really count on any of that and my grandchildren certainly can't. |
Things are getting better. It’s just our expectation quite often exceeds reality.
The “dream” of children having a substantially better life than their parents can only be very noticeable for those parents at the lower half of the social ladder. But once the generation (or two) of parents approaches the top end of the social ladder, there’s limited places “up” to go. Then, even if life is getting better, we don’t feel it any more.
Trouble is, posters on this board, many of whom are closer to the top end than the bottom end of the social ladder, tend to take what got us here for granted, and still expect the next generation to have an easier time than us, AND reach higher in their life position.
Free education is still available for all. But now we question about the quality of that “free” education and many choose to pay for “better” quality of it. Same with healthcare.
Peace in Europe had always been precarious. Nuclear annihilation scare was real for some part of our lifetime. Fate of the planet was part of that scare too.
It’s nature that parents wish to provide for their children to have a “better” life. But sometimes people forget there’re periods of rapid improvement of our life and there’re also slow period too. |
Very true all of that.
I well remember the threat of nuclear war and the government warning films
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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When I were a lad we never ‘ad skis. We used smash up John Smiths’ barrels and nail the staves from them to ow’r bare feet. We’d ski down them slag eeps and our dad wud beat us with a rusty trey ‘e used as a snowbord. Ye’ tell the kids today that an’ they just won’t believe thee.
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Poster: A snowHead
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too right @Ski lots, them were the days.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Ski lots, oooh we used to dream of John Smiths barrels.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well when I say barrels, I meant ‘ollowed oot logs - rotten at that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Luxury I tell thee, we had to get up two hours before we went to bed and work down t'pit for 25 hours a day and only had bits of coal top eat and drink pit ponies wee wee
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
| And you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya |
But they will believe vaccines jabs implants a micro chip in your arm. 
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| robs1 wrote: |
| Luxury I tell thee, we had to get up two hours before we went to bed and work down t'pit for 25 hours a day and only had bits of coal top eat and drink pit ponies wee wee |
You were lucky if you had a bed and bits of coal to eat. 
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Near to us we have an Odalys apartment block and as soon as the high season holidaymakers leave, they fill up with coaches of Croatian / Polish sub 25yr olds as well as Frenchies of a particular vintage.
You never see them out in restaurants or even bars in the evening, but you do see their coaches on a Saturday in the various super-market car parks stocking up.
One of these days I must ask what they pay and if the lift pass is included in that price etc
25th March you can get a 4 person 2 room apartment for €575 and a larger one for €663 !!
If they get a deal on the lift pass, even at €200 that's a cheap week as I doubt they pay that much for the coach!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, 
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| pam w wrote: |
@DavidYacht, the demise of the old "catered chalet" arrangements is a blow for families skiing on a budget, as are the Draconian punishments for taking kids out of school. We had some great holidays in "low end" chalets with good value food and good company too. Knowing they could get "chalet tea" when lifts close, and fill up on "free" baguette and jam, cake and endless cups of tea dissuaded my kids from needing lunch on the mountain and the free "ski guiding" in the old days was invaluable too. I always took bags full of snack/choc/squirrel shit biscuits for them to stuff in their pockets to keep them going and they soon learnt to eat a hearty breakfast, even if hungover.
We did several holidays with Ski Olympic in La Rosiere with coach travel to the door. I still remember the exciting day we were dropped off when the "ski guide cum washer upper" was still clearing the paths after a heavy snowstorm. It was not luxurious. Shared bathrooms, domestic-rated electricity supply which often tripped out in the heavy hour before supper, hot water didn't always work, bus up to the ski slopes.
But we NEVER went in school holidays. Those were the days!! |
I'm pleased to see the end of the catered chalet business model. I only had to endure it on two holidays (once in 3v, then in Wengen) because I was with a group of other people who thought it was a good idea but then vowed I never to do it again. It was more like skiing prison where everyone in the chalet had to be up at the same time for breakfast, and back again for dinner, there was no choice of food and it was cheap and nasty stuff, though the 'free' wine was worse still, more like industrial cleaner.
We were a group of guys in our 20s and my previous experience of apres-ski was beer and shots in all the mountain bars before going out for food and more beer, so I was less than impressed by the idea of cake and tea while people sat around reading books, waiting for a miserable dinner in the chalet. it wasn't my thing back then, and still isn't even now I'm in my 50's. The second time in Wengen was better, at least we only stayed in the chalet for dinner then went out but there was some miserable people in the chalet that continually complained we were disturbing them when we came back from the bars late at night even though we were actually very quiet when returning.
I agree about school holidays though, I don't see what the big deal about missing a week of school is (except during GCSE/A-level years).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My kids' school trip this Xmas was £1200 all in (pre-spending money). Flights rather than coach, decent resort (Sestriere), small groups (6-8 ) for coaching, "great" food according to the kids, evening entertainment etc.. Even an unlimited dessert buffet for dinner. They were 3-5 to a room, but that seemed to be part of the fun of it.
That's pretty similar in real terms to the 1960s prices people were quoting earlier, for possibly a slightly more "advanced" experience in terms of resort quality (snowmaking!), food and other ancillaries. It was certainly a more sophisticated offering than I had on my school trip in the early 80s!
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@JohnS4, who pissed on your chips?!
Clearly your experience of catered chalets wasn't the norm, given the huge popularity of the model with UK holiday makers.
My experience was always a decent breakfast, out skiing with your friends, some après with your friends, back for a shower and scavenge any cake if its left, a reasonable meal, perfectly drinkable wine and then either carry on drinking and playing games with your friends in the comfy chalet, or hit the sauna up, or head back out for the bars.
Sounds like the problem was maybe the friends you chose to holiday with weren't compatible with your idea of fun if they liked reading and you liked shots. You're also not obligated to eat at the chalet, they don't lock the doors to keep you in!
I loved it. No cooking, no cleaning, no mucking about trying to book a table for 14 people for dinner every night. No pesky issues like being stranded in resort and paying for a new flight cos your self-booked transfer hasn't turned up in the snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
I didn't fly anywhere till I was 22, and a graduate - first flight was to Johannesburg and paid for by a study grant, not me or my family.
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around 1970 then?
Package tourism via jet travel to Spain started in 1957 so by the time you flew flying was already familiar to millions of Brits who were holidaying in Benidorm not Blackpool each summer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowdave wrote: |
My kids' school trip this Xmas was £1200 all in (pre-spending money). Flights rather than coach, decent resort (Sestriere), small groups (6-8 ) for coaching, "great" food according to the kids, evening entertainment etc.. Even an unlimited dessert buffet for dinner. They were 3-5 to a room, but that seemed to be part of the fun of it.
That's pretty similar in real terms to the 1960s prices people were quoting earlier, for possibly a slightly more "advanced" experience in terms of resort quality (snowmaking!), food and other ancillaries. It was certainly a more sophisticated offering than I had on my school trip in the early 80s! |
80 quid for my school ski trip, that would be 800 quid today for the same services as you describe above: Flights, instruction, ski hire, lift pass, food and hotel rooms. So that again proves me point that skiing is getting more expensive compared to general inflation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
flying was already familiar to millions of Brits
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and your point is? I was speaking about my own experience as part of a discussion about how skiing holidays have become hugely more accessible to many families, over the longer term, even if, in the shorter term, current circumstances are creating difficulties for families struggling with rising costs of all kinds.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
@JohnS4, who pissed on your chips?!
Clearly your experience of catered chalets wasn't the norm, given the huge popularity of the model with UK holiday makers.
My experience was always a decent breakfast, out skiing with your friends, some après with your friends, back for a shower and scavenge any cake if its left, a reasonable meal, perfectly drinkable wine and then either carry on drinking and playing games with your friends in the comfy chalet, or hit the sauna up, or head back out for the bars.
Sounds like the problem was maybe the friends you chose to holiday with weren't compatible with your idea of fun if they liked reading and you liked shots. You're also not obligated to eat at the chalet, they don't lock the doors to keep you in!
I loved it. No cooking, no cleaning, no mucking about trying to book a table for 14 people for dinner every night. No pesky issues like being stranded in resort and paying for a new flight cos your self-booked transfer hasn't turned up in the snow. |
They were popular with UK holiday makers and almost no other nationality, maybe that says more about the average UK holiday makers expectations than anything else.
The people I went with were a good laugh, we worked together and back in the UK we spent most nights in the pub, and one of the guys in particular I went of lots of ski holidays and we always enjoyed going out. It was him who got the most complaints about 'being too loud' in the following years chalet. It seemed that the 'chalet experience' turned a group of 20yr olds into middle aged people who couldn't be bothered to do anything else but sit around in the chalet.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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OK so you weren't a chalet type person. But it doesn't mean they weren't great for lots of people. My parents were wary but sans kids they went on one and made lifelong friends who they took many more hols with.
The last one I went on was a good laugh with the overgrown kids regularly retreating to the lounge to school assorted kids in highly competitive Uno while parents continued to knock back wine.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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When I first started skiing we found a company called silver ski by accident we loved the chalet way of skiing accommodation and went pethsos five times before I got divorced then carried on with silver ski with my best mate for a good few years until I met my current wife and took her, her kids and mine so started going self catering. We met some lovely people while with silver ski and usually bumped into the same faces on the plane each year, the price was really good and the food and wine was perfectly acceptable, we did have one bunch in a bigger chalet that were complete knobs, were fussy about the food etc, took food from the fridge as well, we didnt ski with them as it was my wifes first time so did our own thing.
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Conversely I would say that thank god the old conventional tour operator model is dying.
Of all the ski holidays I've had, it was the Inghams ones that were most regimented. Forced to have dinner in the exact same seat at the exact same table with the exact same other guests for the entire week. At least with the chalet trips there'd be a bit of swapping around and more often than not even though there'd be a cliquey group or a family in the chalet there'd be 1-2 that would want to ski with someone else, so far more social.
Same on the MTB trips. Sometime ridden with other guests, other times not.
At least now, judging by other threads, there is no rep on those tour op holidays, so nobody trying to sell addons / excursions / etc. and not trying to create fake social groups to go on apres-ski pub crawls where the rep would basically get free beer night thanks to the guest generosity.
Spose what works for some doesn't for others, and vice versa.
Only reason I stopped going on chalet trips was because the chalet I often went to swapped from catered to self catering, and SnowHeads started pretty much around the same time. Far better social to price ratio. Even if the beer consumption tripled.
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| Quote: |
Forced to have dinner in the exact same seat at the exact same table with the exact same other guests for the entire week
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I've never been on one of those. All our TO trips were catered chalets and it was up to the guests where we sat. There was one group of three who were snooty. The single bloke was sharing a room but the sharer hadn't turned up at the first supper, so naturally he was pleased. when the sharer arrived very late he slept on the sofa rather than disturb his room mate - he was that considerate. But there were still moans in the morning, and he wasn't thanked for his consideration. They were showing off about having come first class on the train and I took great delight in showing off in return how we'd had tea with the British Ambassador in Paris (an old friend) to while away the time changing trains. On that occasion my OH went home after the first day to deal with extreme damage to our roof and I stayed on, joined the ski lessons the very pleasant other group in the chalet were in, and skied with them the rest of the week. The three snotties kept themselves to themselves all week, but the rest of us had more fun! It was very early January (cheapest week) and the young chalet hosts were inexperienced but very hard working and learning fast. They were great jobs. Ours was a last minute booking (hence the train, as flights were full) and very cheap. Plagne 1800.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| andy wrote: |
Conversely I would say that thank god the old conventional tour operator model is dying.
Of all the ski holidays I've had, it was the Inghams ones that were most regimented. Forced to have dinner in the exact same seat at the exact same table with the exact same other guests for the entire week. At least with the chalet trips there'd be a bit of swapping around and more often than not even though there'd be a cliquey group or a family in the chalet there'd be 1-2 that would want to ski with someone else, so far more social.
Same on the MTB trips. Sometime ridden with other guests, other times not.
At least now, judging by other threads, there is no rep on those tour op holidays, so nobody trying to sell addons / excursions / etc. and not trying to create fake social groups to go on apres-ski pub crawls where the rep would basically get free beer night thanks to the guest generosity.
Spose what works for some doesn't for others, and vice versa.
Only reason I stopped going on chalet trips was because the chalet I often went to swapped from catered to self catering, and SnowHeads started pretty much around the same time. Far better social to price ratio. Even if the beer consumption tripled. |
Yeah I can agree on that, it amazes me that tour operators still exist.
I've been doing DIY trips since 1999. I was regularly traveling to Germany for work in the late 90s and got used to finding my way around places so I decided to do my first DIY trip. I rang up a hotel that I'd stayed at before in St Anton with a TO and made a booking on the phone. Then on my next work trip I booked some days vacation, took my ski clothes and boots and bought a train ticket from Frankfurt station. 4 trains later and I was in St Anton which I knew from my previous trips. I Hired skis from the nearest shop to the lift and realized I would never do another tour operator trip again, they were not adding any values as I could see and I don't like being herded around by people.
Since then most trips have been by car from the UK, occasionally by air then rental car, and a few times air/train but never since with a TO.
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FAQ
