I was replying to Pam (message above) rather than quoting/replying to your post. Just a high level summary of how it works for the layman who isn't sure if they have the feature or why it may be important.
I'm familiar with the myriad systems used for traction, braking and stability control (back in the early 1990s I was driving development cars for Ford as they began to roll out their next generation ABS that would appear in the Mk1 Mondeo and have done "stuff" with JLR) and could write an awful lot more if I were really really bored
And if I weren't bored, everyone else soon would be
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
LaForet wrote:
This emphasises the importance of reading the Owners Manual to see what traction setting you use for snow and chains. They usually also apply equally to sand and fine gravel. Sometimes there's just a clear button to push with a snowflake symbol on it but often the descriptions get mired in acronym-speak and lack of clarity of what buttons to press when. This isn't something you want to be reading through as the snowline rapidly approaches.
In most BMWs you press the 'car-with-wiggly-lines' button next to the shift stick when you move onto snow/sand/gravel and TRACTION is displayed on the instrument cluster in front of you. When you move back onto tarmac, you press the button again and the TRACTION disappears. You can do this while the car is on the move - you don't have to stop. When you turn the ignition off, it reverts to the default, so if you're starting on snow, you need to go through the process again. You can safely do this as a test on dry roads back home, just for familiarisation, but be aware it alters the usual traction safety settings that prevent oversteer, so it's something you want to do a quiet, straight bit of dry road at low speed.
What confuses the 250-word description in the BMW Owners Manual are lengthy references to DSC, DTC etc. and what each does in terms of stability control in different conditions and how they overlap functionally. When all you want to know is 'What button do I press when I'm on snow?'.
And if you have an auto box then it's also worth knowing how to disengage the auto when the engine isn't running, in case you're being pulled out of a snowdrift. While you can engage [N] with the engine running, it defaults to [P] if the engine is off and you can't normally set it to [N]. However, it is possible - but you have to follow a particular sequence of brake pedal and shift stick settings to do so. Again, not something you want to be researching in a driving crisis. It's also useful to know how to do this for when your car is being loaded onto a flatbed recovery vehicle, but with the engine off.
More recently we've used a Audi A6 estate that has 4 wheels driven + torque biased mechanical centre differential, it needs absolutely no settings or interferance to cope with any conditions.
The only concession I make is to use manual gear selection for slow slippery decent as any good 4WD practice will usually benefit from engine braking distributed through all four wheels. Its genuinely very good given any situation.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
NoDosh wrote:
I was replying to Pam (message above) rather than quoting/replying to your post. Just a high level summary of how it works for the layman who isn't sure if they have the feature or why it may be important.
I'm familiar with the myriad systems used for traction, braking and stability control (back in the early 1990s I was driving development cars for Ford as they began to roll out their next generation ABS that would appear in the Mk1 Mondeo and have done "stuff" with JLR) and could write an awful lot more if I were really really bored
And if I weren't bored, everyone else soon would be
Do you understand the direction to switch it off as it would appear to be advantageous to layman driving, looks odd to me. Is there an equipment limitation that could force that direction.
While it will depend on the logic for that particular car/manufacturer, the idea is that when using chains you actually *want* the wheels to lock a little when braking (to build up a ramp of snow in front of the wheel and aid stopping) and you want to avoid even small instabilities across axles, such as alternate braking of wheels by the DSC / TC triggering because it sense a loss of traction. The rationale is that the vehicle will be proceeding relatively slowly - while the functions of DSC and other anti skid behaviour in particular are geared towards a vehicle moving a fair bit faster.
Particularly important with 4wd, where DSC may also send more power to the "slower" wheels and cause additional instability.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Certainly interesting input @NoDosh, s5ill I don't see why they've given a hard advice to switch off a safety feature.
More pertinent for me is that Ford advise this way in this instance, but Volkswagen are happy to leave it on in my manual. They say you "can" switch it off by preference for a short list of suggested scenarios, but advice is it should ordinarily be used all the time.
@pam w, VAG vehicles usually call this "ESP" and sometimes locate a button down out of the way on central console in front of gear lever.
@ski3 That's interesting as my Audi A3 Quattro needed me to press an enabling button for snow and chains. But perhaps the latest Audi traction can handle all situations without having to be told, in effect.
And as @NoDosh implies, we're dealing with two mutually-exclusive scenarios here in terms of many traction control systems: winter snow versus dry performance. What you want your modern engine and braking control system to do for snow is to turn off their usual intervention for oversteer/understeer and give you the maximum traction in the snow. This assumes you're not careering around at high speed and are driving very carefully. You'll often read rather equivocal advice in the owners manual because some owners can't be trusted to reset their traction control properly, or misunderstand that when returning to tarmac, it won't automatically reset itself, which could cause problems. And then you're always going to get a small minority who will say "I pressed the snow button and still crashed the car!" and blame the manufacturer's for their accident.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The A3 is not the "traditional" Audi quattro system that originated for their rally/road cars.
It's essentially a golf chassis, transverse engine, quill shaft to rear with hydraulic clutch pack connection of front to rear on demand. More marketing (in Audi nomenclature) than technical design and effectively a front wheel drive platform with rear assistance only when slip is detected above pre defined criteria.
The A4 and upward chassis are longtitudinal engine with three permanent differential to consistently drive all the wheels all the time ordinarily with a torque sensing (limited slip facility on centre) to prevent traction problems.
I believe BMW 3 series X drive and upward are also more oriented in this direction ( longtitudinal 3 differential etc) to compete. Plus the longtitudinal engined Mercedes of the same sectors.
The transverse engined BMW are also same platform design concept as A3 too, all of these type transmission use a "Haldex" supplied rear system to give that function to front wheel drive designs.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I had a BMW 330d xDrive Touring before my current car and this still needed me to set the Traction up as described*. I think the lesson here is just to check what your Owners Manual says about setting traction controls for snow, if necessary. If not, that's great but you may need to do one or more things and it's best to know what they are in advance, and ideally to have tried it out (under suitable conditions).
*Press the 'car-with-wiggly-lines' button next to the shift stick when you move onto snow/sand/gravel and TRACTION is displayed on the instrument cluster in front of you. When you move back onto tarmac, you press the button again and the TRACTION disappears. If you turn the engine off, it defaults back to the standard tarmac setup. This assumes you're driving relatively slowly on snow, sand or gravel and/or have chains on.
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Not looking forward to arriving up this 15pct road tonight at 1:30am in an estate rental from Alamo CH. Photo taken earlier today and it’s currently -8c. I doubt we will have access to chains.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Ozboy, Looks similar to our road in La Chapelle which my fwd BMW 2 Series with all season tyres made it up ok this afternoon. The snow is completely dry and not that polished ice surface.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Ozboy, you may be lucky with swiss side tyre spec, interesting to hear of success or not.
At least it looks very decent coverage in comparison to just recently. Happy days.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
ski3 wrote:
A friend running a chalet used self tensioning chains on front wheel drive minibus, absolutely hated them as they never RELIABLY did this.
Interesting Note about "we recommend that you switch the stability control system off" and could be quite significant.
So I‘m guessing they don‘t want you to use self tensioning chains because they can be unreliable and end up getting wrapped round the car’s brakes or axle etc.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Mine never got wrapped round anything, but they did need "tightening up" manually; you can soon hear/feel if they're not right and it doesn't do, tempting as it is, to drive on and hope for the best.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The car had different drive modes too, this is what it says about the slippery mode -
"Slippery mode adjusts ESC and Traction Control settings for increased confidence on surfaces with reduced grip such as snow and ice; reducing straight-ahead wheel spin, including when pulling away from stationary. Slippery mode also helps drivers maintain control when cornering or changing lanes in slippery conditions by delivering small adjustments to the throttle and brakes to prevent excessive understeer or oversteer“.
Always thought the traction control should be turned off so both the driven wheels could „bite / chew“ into the compacted snow / ice.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB wrote:
ski3 wrote:
A friend running a chalet used self tensioning chains on front wheel drive minibus, absolutely hated them as they never RELIABLY did this.
Interesting Note about "we recommend that you switch the stability control system off" and could be quite significant.
So I‘m guessing they don‘t want you to use self tensioning chains because they can be unreliable and end up getting wrapped round the car’s brakes or axle etc.
I'd guess at that and bodywork damage. They were a very significant named brand and looked competent, but just didn't seem too be abke to be completely trusted. He'd have to get out and force them to compensate wge he heard them loose.
As pam, sane with me, manual set, drive a few hundred mtrs, then winch them tight again to take up any accumulated space, usually OK afterwards.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
The car had different drive modes too, this is what it says about the slippery mode -
"Slippery mode adjusts ESC and Traction Control settings for increased confidence on surfaces with reduced grip such as snow and ice; reducing straight-ahead wheel spin, including when pulling away from stationary. Slippery mode also helps drivers maintain control when cornering or changing lanes in slippery conditions by delivering small adjustments to the throttle and brakes to prevent excessive understeer or oversteer“.
Always thought the traction control should be turned off so both the driven wheels could „bite / chew“ into the compacted snow / ice.
Traction control in conventional form, tries to stop too much wheel slip in all conditions. Think that approximately 15% is the maximum a dry tyre/road surface give the highest acceleration rate, likey its set at something like this. My view is that you really don't want chained wheels to spin as it raises damage potential significantly
Something else can be done though, called EDL "electronic differential lock" in VAG terminology. This is far more useful on very slippery surfaces, with one wheel spinning then all of tge engine torwue just passes out through tgat wheel, the opposite wheel may have grip but it'll get no power. What EDL then does is to squeeze the single brake on that spinning wheel, further and further until the opposite one start to drive ax well, this usually gets you moving as now the two wheels can attempt to pull the vehicle along. Modulation reduces as vehicle speed start to climb. You can feel it when going slow, a little like a drunk person walking side to side as the ecu pulses brakes on whichever wheel exceeds the other in rotation.
So traction control at the tyre, but with overlay of using the differential in leverage to fulfill an electronic equilibrium.
Pretty efrective when working and you don't need to select anything, just leave it alone and drive carefully.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@ski3,
So what‘s the difference between EDL and normal traction control?
My understanding was that with the traction control off the chains dig in as the wheels turn. With traction control on the car’s brakes are applied and throttle pulled back and the car isn‘t given enough power to move up a steeper hill. I‘ve experienced this first hand.
Suspect that a lot of snowchain breakage occurs when people floor the throttle and the chains finally cut through the snow and ice to hit the road surface underneath. The throttle should be used lightly/carefully/gently.
@Ozboy, you may be lucky with swiss side tyre spec, interesting to hear of success or not.
At least it looks very decent coverage in comparison to just recently. Happy days.
We made it and no issues at all, perhaps as we chose to upgrade to a 4wd at the airport for additional CH135 for the 3 day rental. Was an easy decision as split 4 ways and the road will only get more icey over the course of our stay. We have a band new VW Passat estate AWD instead or a Renault Megane.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@DB, traction control as a defined action has developed to control slip at the wheel, this is the significant bit "by modulation of engine torque" that's effectively a reduction of power output and arrived into road vehicles with another piece of equipment "the fly by wire" throttle. This is a potentiometer accelerator pedal making request to the engine ecu as to what speed you want, as compared to an old type cable throttle that was direct acting on engine throttle.
Handing ultimate fine control to the computer opens the possibility of that modulation to take place. So that's traction control in evolutionary terms.
I could see this as a possibility of why they may by advising to switch it off if they feel it interfered with driver desire to go faster up a hill and torque was reduced by comparison. I disagree though, as breaking traction won't ordinarily help you anyway, also ecu processes and application has just got faster through development.
I'd argue that chains are a particular good scenario for those algorithm to help with. If it can keep traction without overstepping the limit then the vehicle will move.
It hasn't ordinarily made use of brakes as a general principle. But as more development engineers may see advantages in carefully applying brakes (remember that first A-class Mercedes in moose test scandal, withdrawn from sale to have "stability control" added) to provide another layer of monitoring and action to deploy. Some of these features once available (that's usually via ABS control unit, these are often common supply to most manufacturers, Teves being a prominent industry supplier) are the picked up by different development teams, use of brakes one of them, and often labelled by their marketing teams. You see DTC, DSC, EPS etc etc on different manufacturers cars, but all using derivative equipment.
Diff lock, usually associated with 4WD off road tyoe vehicles in very low friction environments, and usually unsuitable for high grip surfaces, generally not used on road cars but really effective in this snow scenario. It's not a true mechanical lock as in 4WD (that physically locks the two opposite wheels together) but specific manipulation of only one brake (leaving engine torque alone) on the spinning wheel, it forces the opposite and often stationary wheel to accommodate drive torque. This is clearly limited by surface traction but it's likely not monitoring that for this function. So it provides a virtual differential lock via the ecu making use of a mechanical error inherent in differential design.
Mechanical differential are quite simple and work fine all the time the two driven wheels have near balanced traction, loose it for one wherl and its compromise is that all of the torque goes to the "wrong" wheel with the two wheel drive vehicle effectively becoming just one. Now all the torque is trying to drive through one tyre patch rather than two, making it even worse.
Differential modulation by selective brake pulsing is just that and not traction control in a design sense, but the lines are getting more blurred certainly.
I still can't see why you'd turn down modulation in scenario when you'd use chains, those video don't explore that, they just say the same old things time and again.
You can probably see just from this discussion the nuance within this topic. It should bring the question "are those people on screen fit to tell us anything in the way of advice" ?
They don’t seem to know enough about the subject to inform themselves, let alone dispense advice to the greater internet
Look at this video from 2:17 to see why you should turn traction control off in certain conditions. The winter tyres are spinning and throwing the snow back while the tyres dig into the snow,eventually the tyres get grip on the road below and move forward. Eventually the car gets enough momentum so that the car moves forward without having to cut all the way through the snow. I wouldn't advise spinning your wheels so fast with chains as when the chains hit the tarmac they could well break. Just let them spin slowly and cut into the snow. Once you are moving and not cutting all the way to the road below (you will hear/feel this) the snow you can give a little more throttle (max. 30 mph that's 50 km/h. but in reality you will probably be traveling around 5 to 15 mph). Should the wheels with chains spin again, come off the throttle and go through the same proceedure again. Don't give it even more throttle as you could well break the snow chains.
Typically with traction control - as soon as one wheel spins the power is taken away from the non-spinning wheel. The car "slumps" and momentum is lost. Without traction control the power isn't reduced and one wheel gripping with chains is often enough to keep the car moving forward until both wheels grip again (e.g. when driving over a small ice patch with one wheel).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Ski3
Quote:
‘ you don't need to select anything, just leave it alone and drive carefully.’
This is very misleading - as a general principle, it's simply not true for 95% of modern vehicles. Perhaps I'm reading this out of context? But it's important that people follow a simple strategy:
Just read your Owners Manual and do what it recommends for driving on snow/chains
If your manual says no settings are needed, great. If it tells you they are, then follow the recommendations.
Yes, it's important to separate traction settings from the parallel question of wheel and tyre choice and how this relates to the use of chains. And it's interesting to understand the relevance of things like limited slip differentials, eDiffs and mechanical vs electronic differential locking, as some owners will have these as well. But traction settings are an easy one: read the manual and see what it says, then follow it. Wheel/tyre and chain selection is a much more convoluted topic, but it shouldn't confuse the simplicity of at least getting your traction settings organised in advance of needing them. Which is easily done by reading your Owners Manual.
You also say that you have an Audi A6 Quattro. In the online Owners Manual for the 2020 model p.113 it says: "The ESC Off button is located in the center console ... it may make sense in some situations to limit the ESC:" then lists them, including "Driving in deep snow, on unpaved ground or with snow chains", so you'll understand why your advice seems contradictory.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Looking at snow chains with a max width of 9mm, that don‘t have an automatic adjuster plus won‘t scratch the alloy winter wheels.
Found something but Pewag Servomatik @ €340 delivered is more than twice as much as I wanted to pay.
Although they are very easy to mount and performed very well in recent tests.
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Sylas wrote:
Damn, thought that might be the case, the investment in snow tyres now seems a waste! But I feel more comfortable at least looking for just 1 pair of socks, compared to 2 pairs of chains as I was going to do.
Is a pair of socks going to be ok, or do they specifically have to be chains?
Not a waste at all. They are far far superior in snow that normal tyres.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
LaForet wrote:
@Ski3
Quote:
‘ you don't need to select anything, just leave it alone and drive carefully.’
This is very misleading - as a general principle, it's simply not true for 95% of modern vehicles. Perhaps I'm reading this out of context? But it's important that people follow a simple strategy:
Just read your Owners Manual and do what it recommends for driving on snow/chains
It was in context of talking about the VAG facility of EDL electronic differential lock specifically in that post.
The manual states also " the ESP (the only control option) should generally be left switched on at all times. In specific circumstances where you require LESS traction, you can switch off the ESP"
Of course reading your own manual is sensible. Unless you know the reason why you need less traction, id argue that their direction to leave all functions operating takes precedence. They engineered it, coded it with algorithm, R&D analysed it, that's difficult to argue against.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DB wrote:
@ski3,
As far as I can see, most car manufacturers advise the driver to switch off the traction control when using chains.
Why should I believe someone on the internet and not the car manufacturers ?
Thats a very broad statement, the first part, you need to state verbatim what is actually written, are they saying you can, or saying there maybe a preference in your circumstances? Presumably you have "most" manufacturers manual to hand and can quote from them or is that just a sweeping internet statement?
For the second part, we are both here debating the topic, there's no instruction on my part, the details are a point of interest, also the systems and how they may differ from one vehicle to the next relevant in any technical understanding.
It's entirely your preference how you conduct you vehicle.
My question to you would be, do you fully understand what they are telling you in the manual ?
The VAG vehickes seem to me (by their instruction in their manual) to say just drive it with the system we have developed as primary directive, have you any observable facts written by them that state clearly the opposite ?
That would be part of the discussion we could all consider.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Ozboy wrote:
ski3 wrote:
@Ozboy, you may be lucky with swiss side tyre spec, interesting to hear of success or not.
At least it looks very decent coverage in comparison to just recently. Happy days.
We made it and no issues at all, perhaps as we chose to upgrade to a 4wd at the airport for additional CH135 for the 3 day rental. Was an easy decision as split 4 ways and the road will only get more icey over the course of our stay. We have a band new VW Passat estate AWD instead or a Renault Megane.
Good result there then, they are v-good for traction, more reliant on anti lock going down though, so hopefully good tyres too.
Looks likely you've had a powder day too
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ski3 wrote:
DB wrote:
@ski3,
As far as I can see, most car manufacturers advise the driver to switch off the traction control when using chains.
Why should I believe someone on the internet and not the car manufacturers ?
Thats a very broad statement, the first part, you need to state verbatim what is actually written, are they saying you can, or saying there maybe a preference in your circumstances? Presumably you have "most" manufacturers manual to hand and can quote from them or is that just a sweeping internet statement?
For the second part, we are both here debating the topic, there's no instruction on my part, the details are a point of interest, also the systems and how they may differ from one vehicle to the next relevant in any technical understanding.
It's entirely your preference how you conduct you vehicle.
My question to you would be, do you fully understand what they are telling you in the manual ?
The VAG vehickes seem to me (by their instruction in their manual) to say just drive it with the system we have developed as primary directive, have you any observable facts written by them that state clearly the opposite ?
That would be part of the discussion we could all consider.
Manufacturers manuals are often available on the internet. There are also many articles on the subject and most say it's probably best to turn off the traction control when using chains but check the manual to be sure.
e.g. https://blog.tiremart.com/when-to-turn-off-traction-control-in-winter/
Ford manual says in the Using Snow Chains Section "Note : We recommend that you switch the stability system off."
Yes I understand what they are saying, it's not rocket science. The videos I have posted also demonstrate why. I've also experienced the car "slumping" in winter conditions because of the traction control system being activated (with and without chains) and understand why it is better to deactivate it in certain conditions.
Many manufacturers have different names for the stability / traction control systems but as far as I can tell they essentially all do the same thing. Why most say turn off the traction control but VAG say differently is puzzling. Have you got a link to the VAG manual or can you post what it says about traction control here?
https://www.vwserviceandparts.com/digital-resources/online-owners-manual/
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
ski3 wrote:
DB wrote:
@ski3,
As far as I can see, most car manufacturers advise the driver to switch off the traction control when using chains.
Why should I believe someone on the internet and not the car manufacturers ?
Thats a very broad statement, the first part, you need to state verbatim what is actually written, are they saying you can, or saying there maybe a preference in your circumstances? Presumably you have "most" manufacturers manual to hand and can quote from them or is that just a sweeping internet statement?
For the second part, we are both here debating the topic, there's no instruction on my part, the details are a point of interest, also the systems and how they may differ from one vehicle to the next relevant in any technical understanding.
It's entirely your preference how you conduct you vehicle.
My question to you would be, do you fully understand what they are telling you in the manual ?
The VAG vehickes seem to me (by their instruction in their manual) to say just drive it with the system we have developed as primary directive, have you any observable facts written by them that state clearly the opposite ?
That would be part of the discussion we could all consider.
Let's not over-complicate the issue. We all seem to be agreeing that you read the Owners Manual for your specific vehicle and take the advice that's in it when you drive on snow or fit snow chains. Which for 95% of modern vehicles is that you override the default traction aid settings, usually by pressing a button. It's very simple.
If your manual tells you to do nothing - which you say yours does - then fine, do nothing. But if says to press a button, as in the case of the Audi A6 Quattro manual I read, or my current BMW 2 Series Manual, or my previous BMW 3 Series xDrive manual, or my previous Audi A3 Quattro manual, or my previous Mercedes C-Class manual, or .... whatever, then do that.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 20-01-23 23:15; edited 4 times in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB wrote:
Many manufacturers have different names for the stability / traction control systems but as far as I can tell they essentially all do the same thing. Why most say turn off the traction control but VAG say differently is puzzling.
They don't. VAG also say you should turn off ASR (Traction Control) in deep snow or when using chains. See "Switching off" https://www.auditech.org/acont-467.html
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Raceplate wrote:
DB wrote:
Many manufacturers have different names for the stability / traction control systems but as far as I can tell they essentially all do the same thing. Why most say turn off the traction control but VAG say differently is puzzling.
They don't. VAG also say you should turn off ASR (Traction Control) in deep snow or when using chains. See "Switching off" https://www.auditech.org/acont-467.html
Thanks, that doesn’t surprise me. I‘ve yet to see a car manual that specifically says leave the traction control on when you put chains on the car. Most if not all say otherwise.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I still can‘t work out why Ford advise against chains that automatically tighten - anyone have any idea?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Its this statement from @Raceplate, link that causes me to ask why you'd not leave it on
"The traction control system should normally remain switched on at all times. It should only be switched off manually in particular circumstances where a certain amount of wheel slip may be desirable."
That MAY inserted in there brings many questions to me.
If you've just put chains on, to gain traction, most of us acknowledge that it's undesirable to spin chained wheels in deference to material integrity, then how is someone deciding that they want wheel slip.
I've never switched it out on VAG vehicles and they've never been stuck even in the most severe surface conditions.
You do not need chains if you have winter tyres in France under the new legislation :- Quote
To improve road traffic in mountainous areas and the safety of users, it is mandatory to equip your vehicle with winter tyres or to hold snow chains or socks of the 1to November 2022 to March 31, 2023 in certain mountainous areas. Entry into force 1to November 2021, this winter obligation is fixed by a decree issued in Official Journal October 18, 2020. Which vehicles, equipment and departments are involved?
If you have proper winter tyres, you won't need chains, despite the crap above from some posters, hence you don't have to have them by law, if you have the proper winter tyres. In fact, chains are far more likely to cause you problems unless you are completely incompetent .
In Austria you do net legally need to carry chains in winter if your vehicle is under 3.5 Ton (anything over 3.5 Ton does). However in servere winter conditions where chains are required and you don't have them, then the police can legally prevent you from continuing your journey. To continue your journey there is a legal requirement to have chains.
So taxi costs to a hotel, hotel costs, the risk of your car being damaged or broken into while parked in the middle of nowhere at the side of the road, losing at least a days skiing - you pays your money you takes your chances.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 21-01-23 12:08; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
ski3 wrote:
Its this statement from @Raceplate, link that causes me to ask why you'd not leave it on
"The traction control system should normally remain switched on at all times. It should only be switched off manually in particular circumstances where a certain amount of wheel slip may be desirable."
That MAY inserted in there brings many questions to me.
If you've just put chains on, to gain traction, most of us acknowledge that it's undesirable to spin chained wheels in deference to material integrity, then how is someone deciding that they want wheel slip.
I've never switched it out on VAG vehicles and they've never been stuck even in the most severe surface conditions.
Traction control can't cope with extreme conditions. The power is taken away from the non spinning wheel and the brakes are used on the other wheel to try and get traction (which if it is on a spot of ice is useless). The vehichle "slumps" and doesn't go anywhere. I've had this happen on a VW Sharan I was driving too, don't kid yourself that VAG has some sort of magical system that will get you through all winter conditions. The Audi A3 I used to drive wasn't much better either. The sharan was probably the worst car I've driven in the snow. It was heavy, the wheels were too wide to put chains on (winter tyres same dimension as summers, the owner should haave gone for narrower winter tyres), it aqua-planed really badly and on the snow/ice the traction control system didn't save it either.
With chains on the wheels and traction control off, either the wheel with grip brings the car forward (no power is taken away) or both wheels rotate and dig into the snow/ice below until they gain grip and the car moves forward. You want the wheels to rotate (not spin fast) so you can gain grip.
ski3 wrote:
I've never switched it out on VAG vehicles and they've never been stuck even in the most severe surface conditions.
Then you probably just think you have experienced extreme conditions. Drove a friends 4WD SUV with winter tyres to a local ski tour. A local farmer with a tractor had to rescue me from a forest track, I was expecting the SUV to conquer almost anything, well at least a forest track with snow.
I've had to stay in hotels because the avalanche risk was too high and the direct route was shut. The locals showed me an alternate route down the back roads the next morning. I had one of the best powder days of my life that day.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 21-01-23 12:18; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
ski3 wrote:
DB wrote:
I still can‘t work out why Ford advise against chains that automatically tighten - anyone have any idea?
You're probably going to require a question to Ford for that, I wouldn't believe anyone on the internet if I were you
Was at the Ford garage yesterday. First guy laughed and said "do you really think you will need snow chains" (the winter has been really warm / bad in Eastern Austria this season). The second guy said we don't stock / offer snow chains. I asked him what the preferred chains are and he said "look in the manual". Didn't bother asking why ford don't like self-tensioning chains, I'll probably get a better response from Forstinger (Halfords equivalent in Austria).
Then this morning I woke up to this -
Last edited by After all it is free on Sat 21-01-23 12:57; edited 2 times in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
In my experience, the problem with traction control isn't when it starts braking individual wheels, it's when it cuts the power to the engine because both wheels are spinning. In that scenario, the car just stalls. You have to turn it off to keep the revs up and force the car out of the situation. Hence why the Audi page I quoted says:
It should only be switched off manually in particular circumstances where a certain amount of wheel slip may be desirable.
For example:
• when driving with snow chains
• when driving in deep snow or on loose surfaces
• when rocking the car backwards and forwards to free it.
If you've got a Quattro with suitable tyres, it's unlikely that you'll ever need to turn it off (I haven't had to in mine, even in a blizzard up to Val Thorens) but if your car is 2WD, it's highly likely you will have to turn it off to maintain momentum.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Raceplate wrote:
if your car is 2WD, it's highly likely you will have to turn it off to maintain momentum.
I know this from first hand experience, learning the lesson the hard way. I worked in the car industry for 30+ years and had a brand new Mondeo as my company car in 1994. The car had traction control, a first at the time. In some light snow and faced with trying to go up a not particularly steep hill on summer tyres (no-one knew what winter tyres were in the UK then), I thought, "Great, my cutting edge car's got TC, get up here no problem." Er, no. It just cut the power and stalled, time after time. So I turned it off, span the wheels and went up the hill old school style. Lesson learned!
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