 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
albinomountainbadger, Not even the French could claim that ski hosting was an act of terrorism... although they DO sometimes wear balaclavas...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, Not even the French could claim that ski hosting was an act of terrorism... although they DO sometimes wear balaclavas... |
Perhaps not the act of ski hosting, but allowing a group of Brits to 'ski like goats' without French supervision is surely the definition of a danger to Gallic public order.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
forgot to mention that the ESF do not have to pay french TVA tax so in effect the French taxpayer subsidises them 20%, another way they are cheaper. Ask the ESF chappies why other French ski schools who belong to the ESI trade union (a break away union) do not receive the same tax break...
Oh and ask why the ESF trade union is the representative member for France of the International Ski Instructor Association a worldwide group of 40 Member States yet has only attended one meeting in the last two years. (they decided to turn up to vote against adding an age allowance to the international version of the Eurotest)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Interesting about the TVA. I will take a wild stab in the dark and say it's because each moniteur is an individual business not earning enough to be subject to TVA where as the UK model is to set a school up as a business and pay instructors to work for it, thus pooling their revenue. A school with five instructors will easily break the turnover threshold for VAT, but would a sole trader do so in a four month season?
On a side note, I recently stumbled upon the judgement from Albertville in the Le Ski case - this seems as good a place as any to leave it: http://www.annoncesdelaseine.fr/index.php/2013/04/29/sanction-des-moniteurs-de-ski-etrangers-ne-respectant-pas-le-droit-francais/
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
That's why France's economy is in the toilet...they couldn't run a bath never mind a country
Probably why London is now the 5th largest French City!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Haggis_Trap, I do actually and I hope that our MEP politicians that they insist they play by EU rules... unfair state aid could be added to the list... The Brits do have some influence as it happens as voting members in the EU and when it comes time for EC directives to be voted on by all member states we may be in for a surprise that not all members share your view that it is their mountains and they can do what they like... The Austrians are under investigation by the EU for unfair practice in ski schools so momentum is building...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
albinomountainbadger, Interesting isn't it... ESI ski schools operate on a similar model but don't get a tax break.... Not exactly a coop of one man bands, the ESF has a headquarters, marketing budget, employs a management and legal staff..
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap, I do actually and I hope that our MEP politicians that they insist they play by EU rules... unfair state aid could be added to the list... The Brits do have some influence as it happens as voting members in the EU and when it comes time for EC directives to be voted on by all member states we may be in for a surprise that not all members share your view that it is their mountains and they can do what they like... The Austrians are under investigation by the EU for unfair practice in ski schools so momentum is building... |
If UKIP get their way then Britian will be out of the EU by 2017 
Either way the EU courts will ultimately decide if EU laws are being broken.
Plus nations will always be able to negotiate opt outs.
So I wouldn't pin all your hopes on Simon Butler suddenly opening the flood gates.
FWIW agree the reasons for a euro-test being required to teach snowploughs are questionable.
However it is nothing to do with being anti-British. So lets moan about it for the right reasons.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 24-10-14 15:35; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Interesting about the TVA. I will take a wild stab in the dark and say it's because each moniteur is an individual business not earning enough to be subject to TVA where as the UK model is to set a school up as a business and pay instructors to work for it, thus pooling their revenue. A school with five instructors will easily break the turnover threshold for VAT, but would a sole trader do so in a four month season? |
Sorry wrong.
The majority of ski instructors in France are self employed (individual business). Other ski schools, i.e EV2, who have self employed instructors have to pay TVA.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, Interesting isn't it... ESI ski schools operate on a similar model but don't get a tax break.... Not exactly a coop of one man bands, the ESF has a headquarters, marketing budget, employs a management and legal staff.. |
Nation wide workers Co-ops, with tax breaks, are common place in France.
It is not just a ski industry thing.
It is how they do business nationwide - the idea being that some of the power is transferred from the corporation to the people / workers themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, Interesting isn't it... ESI ski schools operate on a similar model but don't get a tax break.... Not exactly a coop of one man bands, the ESF has a headquarters, marketing budget, employs a management and legal staff.. |
Can't comment on ESI so will take your word on it, and it's very curious if it's the case. However the ESF set-up could be explained to Anglo ears as a franchise, with each operator running his own business but paying subs to a centralised office for all the things you list - it doesn't mean head office accounts for each franchisee's income.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Interesting about the TVA. I will take a wild stab in the dark and say it's because each moniteur is an individual business not earning enough to be subject to TVA where as the UK model is to set a school up as a business and pay instructors to work for it, thus pooling their revenue. A school with five instructors will easily break the turnover threshold for VAT, but would a sole trader do so in a four month season? |
Sorry wrong.
The majority of ski instructors in France are self employed (individual business). Other ski schools, i.e EV2, who have self employed instructors have to pay TVA. |
But why do they have to pay TVA? Like in the UK it's only triggered on revenue, so either they do something differently in their accounts or, yes, the ESF have a magic exemption. I've tried searching in the French tax law but can't find any mention of it (other than bits making clear that they do have to pay taxe fonciere etc on their premises)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
albinomountainbadger, I could be in error on the ESI situation but was told by someone in the know, be good to hear Stewarts view as a red coat
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
albinomountainbadger, skimottaret,
I don't know why other ski schools have to pay TVA whilst I believe the ESF don't.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 24-10-14 15:48; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
If UKIP get their way then Britian will be out of the EU by 2017
Either way the EU courts will ultimately decide if EU laws are being broken.
Plus nations will always be able to negotiate opt outs.
So I wouldn't pin all your hopes on Simon Butler suddenly opening the flood gates.
FWIW agree the reasons for a euro-test being required to teach snowploughs are questionable.
However it is nothing to do with being anti-British. So lets moan about it for the right reasons. |
Wrong again on pretty much all your statements...
UKIP obtaining a majority in the commons in 2017 is about as likely as Scottish independence.. We may be out of the EU if a referendum goes forward but UKIP will only be a side show..
Delegated acts of EC directives don't have opt outs
I am not pinning anything on the SBS court case, although it brings attention to the matter ultimately it will be EU directives that are to be voted on that will decide what is or isn't legal. Not a cartel of trade unions and ski instructor associations.
Although you keep repeating yourself I have never stated the French are anti British rather they are not abiding by EU statutes.
When did I "moan" about the Eurotest
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Did I say UKIP would get a majority ?
And why bring up Scottish independence ?
| Quote: |
| Although you keep repeating yourself |
Oh the irony...
Like I said before the EU courts will decide the exact letter of the law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Perhaps you should correct yourself and say if the UK through a referendum "gets their way" and decides to leave the EU we could be out, why keep throwing UKIP in the mix...
again wrong the EU courts wont decide the EC directives, our civil servants and BASI get to vote on the delegated act in the first instance. But hey why listen and learn when you have all the answers...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
^ UKIP is relevant as they are formally backing Simon Butler
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the relevant EU law. The EU law is that countries should recognise equivalent qualifications. EU law is not about countries imposing lower standrards on countries with higher Standards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Haggis_Trap, So what, an anti EU political party sees an opportunity to make a point regarding unfairness in Europe by "formally backing" a citizen... Boris Johnson "formally backed" Simon Butler. Maybe the Green Party might join the fray if they perceive an injustice... All good to raise awareness.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TTT, for Right of Establishment yes the top level qualification is required as my long post above but the current EC directive is clear in that Temporary Working rights to promote free movement of labour allows for lower level qualifications to practice for short periods. The EQF mapping process should help with this and hopefully a simple system of comparison will be implemented. A pilot programme for pan EU Personal Trainer qualifications is underway and although not directly comparable will be interesting to see how it works in practice.
Here is a document "everything you ever needed to know about the recognition of professional qualifications" makes for interesting reading and specifically mentions examples relating to ski instruction
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| TTT wrote: |
| There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the relevant EU law. The EU law is that countries should recognise equivalent qualifications. EU law is not about countries imposing lower standrards on countries with higher Standards. |
Quite right but the core point is that even where equivalence is established "right to run a training school" is restricted to solely French certs.
Imagine it's like running a restaurant - you can work as a plongeur, waiter, chef if you have the equivalent qualifications but you can only be an owner if you graduated a specific catering management course at a fixed number of French Lycees. Or you could only be a Chief Exec if you had an MBA from Insead; LBS, Harvard, Stanford, Oxbridge etc all no good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
the irony of Simon Butler being supported by UKIP is beautiful  |
Yes, it probably is. SB has come in for quite some flack because of it. However, his local MEP is a member of UKIP so I don't believe that SB chose to enlist UKIP's support in particular, he simply went to his local MEP which seems like the correct think to to do if you have a problem relating to EU legislation. Obviously him choosing to appear (by video) at a UKIP meeting lays him open to criticism, but I think it is a shame that once again the particular circumstances of SB's case are distorting what is a much wider debate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, There are several MEPs representing the South East region, he could have picked a different one to ask.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Thx Scott - will have a look when not skiing.
Agree BASI trainers should be able to run training programmes like the ones they do in CH but also in my job in the UK you have to be trained by someone UK qualified so not a french issue per se.
It was indeed sweet irony SB getting into bed with a party that advocates all brits not working in France. I think it became very clear that SB only has his own interests at heart and does not care who he damages in the process.
He also posted a letter to him from a former BASI CEO confirming hie does not have grandfather rights despite posting he had received the std legal advice not to comment publicly. Seems he is his own worst enemy and I agree he has an unhelpful distraction and impediment to resolving broader issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
you out skiing, nice !!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cheersskimottaret, because as much as I find this debate strangely interesting given it has no direct impact on me other than potentially changing nationality to keep skiing regularly if SB gets his way it's time to check that fresh snow rather than read EU law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| rjs wrote: |
| rob@rar, There are several MEPs representing the South East region, he could have picked a different one to ask. |
I understand that Emma McClarkin, Conservative, also spoke to the European Commissioner about SB's case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
There are indeed a few people who would have done well to do some research and get some info such as Phil Smith's excellent article. Just highlighted what some are really like.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
So after reading 5 pages the answer to the original post is that there is no reason to be anything other than polite to ESF representatives at any show they may be at.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I would certainly tell them politely why I had no intention of ever using them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| the irony of Simon Butler being supported by UKIP is beautiful |
Yes, it probably is. SB has come in for quite some flack because of it. However, his local MEP is a member of UKIP so I don't believe that SB chose to enlist UKIP's support in particular, he simply went to his local MEP which seems like the correct think to to do if you have a problem relating to EU legislation. Obviously him choosing to appear (by video) at a UKIP meeting lays him open to criticism, but I think it is a shame that once again the particular circumstances of SB's case are distorting what is a much wider debate. |
Sorry but I don't think that's correct in any way at all.
It seems Paul Nuttall was the UKIP MEP involved e.g. http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_880_UKIP-stands-up-for-victimised-British-Ski-Instructor.html. Paul Nuttall represents NW England. SB, afaik, is from Guildford.
As others have pointed out, European constituencies elect multiple MEP. SE England elects 10 and if you live here and want to approach your "local MEP", you can choose from Conservative, Labour, LibDem, Green and UKIP. SB commented that UKIP was the only party taking action to support him. He clearly chose to accept the help. More fool him, IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I would apologise to ESF for the attitudes and behaviour of some Brits. I think that SB lost the sympathy of a lot of people after the UKIP stunt and the BASI meeting rant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| TTT wrote: |
| There are indeed a few people who would have done well to do some research and get some info such as Phil Smith's excellent article. Just highlighted what some are really like. |
Do you have a link to the Phil Smith article you refer to? without seeing the article it is hard to make sense out your statement of "highlighted what some are really like"
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
skimottaret, I don't as PS took it down unfortunately after comments from that European outdoor organisation that is associated with an invidual who is backing SB and has had legal problems themselves. It understandably did not cover the legal matters that are at the core of the issue but I thought it was a very balanced piece on the different perspectives that are the background to the debate.
What I do know is that SB is seen as an anomaly and and his situation is not helping negotiations. He could have done the precursor to the ET, the ET or got his French grandfather's rights but chose to do none of these.
Another issue of course is what happens when it comes to renewing his license/CRB check given the charges of instructing illegally, employing under qualified staff and employing staff illegally. I think he has alienated himself and surrounded himself with people who have given him poor advice because of their own personal agendas. All the evidence I have seen is that he has put himself in a difficult position and it could well become more difficult.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TTT, can you explain what "French grandfather's rights" are please? I presume it's something different from the grandfather rights that converted an old-style BASI 1 to a BASI L4/ITSD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
laundryman, there was a time limited process in France that enabled people to get the carte pro without the ET/EMS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| TTT wrote: |
| There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the relevant EU law. The EU law is that countries should recognise equivalent qualifications. EU law is not about countries imposing lower standrards on countries with higher Standards. |
It isn't that simple. There's also a requirement for qualifications to be "proportionate" (a favourite word in EU law) and there are plenty of instances where national regulations have been overturned as disproportionate.
If France passed a national law that all plongeurs needed a post-graduate qualification in bacteriology, that would certainly be disproportionate and France would not be at liberty to enforce such a law. The Eurotest is, in my view, disproportionate as a mandatory qualification for teaching all recreational skiers. If that question ever reaches the ECJ, I don't think the view they would take can be pre-judged.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
