 Poster: A snowHead
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, bit confused. Why doesn't S&B have to break even? |
Well a large proportion of the copies are sent out to members as part of their subscription, rather than being sold through newsagents. So they don't enjoy any "real" income from those copies, and can't possibly sell the rest for enough to make a profit (or even break even) overall. |
Roughly that. From the accounts I've seen it is shown as losing lots of money even when ad revenue was aplenty. The club are clearly happy about that as it is seen as being a cost of membership. If it was a stand-alone publication it wouldn't be viable. The future will be much harder... I'm told that ad revenue for most mags has hit the buffers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, I'm amazed magazines are still so popular in general. I can see the publishing industry dieing a death within 20 years in favour of digital format.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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...and the SCGB is improving it's appeal to the younger market, there is a section in the Chat room for younger members, the last post in that section was in November 2008 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Boredsurfing, yeah, good to see kids are getting out more these days.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Boredsurfing, yeah, good to see kids are getting out more these days. |
Yes, we encourage Nanny to give them as much fresh country air as possible.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Boredsurfing, Is that the new 'release into the wild' policy?
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Boredsurfing, do we have a teensy bit of an agenda here? 
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achilles, moi?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, RAF in the bar keeping me up late again 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Boredsurfing, Hic! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Boredsurfing, do you know why the RAF are called crabs?
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PJSki, Oi! are you some pongo?
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You know it makes sense.
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PJSki, I can't repeat what was said, on a family forum
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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PJSki, aha!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, Yep, the explaination is there
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Boredsurfing,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, I'm amazed magazines are still so popular in general. I can see the publishing industry dieing a death within 20 years in favour of digital format. |
20 years?!? What? 2029? You kidding? Newspapers and the top glossies might still be limping along in 20 years but I give most ski mags 20 months.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, wasn't taking about ski mags specifically. But anyway, the clock is running on your prediction.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Boredsurfing, night, night...mind the crabs don't bite.
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PJSki, so, in 20 months minus 24 minutes, you are going to remind me that I was wrong/right? Perfect. I fully expect this thread to still be going then (not another prediction matey, I'm not trying to be another Nostradamus).
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| The Grim Swiller wrote: |
| ... I give most ski mags 20 months. |
Ronnie Biggs should be very pleased to hear that, Swiller. The News of the World says he'll be out in August, ready to buy a final flush of ski mags for next winter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| we're left with something that is actually quite important: a man's loss of life, after two other lost lives, connected by some common factors. |
That is quite the innuendo. Just because the factors were common does not mean they were connected and certainly does not mean they are causal; which would be the implication many people would take from your statement. The fact that three 40 year old ladies were involved in motor vehicle accidents while driving red BMW's in the last 20 years does not mean that we should ban BWM from offering red versions of their cars to 40 year old ladies.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ...and securing the future of a Club that in its heyday published some of the most important information in the ski world, supported by some of the most distinguished skiers in the world, with objectives that were admired internationally. |
You appear to yearn to bring something back that can never return. Skiing has gone from a sport led by elements of the British upper class who seasoned in Switzerland to become a global industry. By virtue of sheer numbers, the locus of influence has shifted to the continent and the USA. Get over it.
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Boredsurfing, still looking in web forums aimed at children eh??
Levitt, quite.
As regards Mags - I cannot think of a time when we have had more come in to our house than now. But I am sure S&B would go to the wall in an open market, or perhaps even if club members got offered a differential sub minus the net cost.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stoatsbrother, there's no point in pursuing that line of argument. Publishing - paper or electronic - is the key to the Club's future. And the key to ski publishing is effective journalism (or the type of people's journalism and information/observation input we see on this channel).
If you're going to promote the argument that members could be offered subscriptions based on more accountable accounting (yes please) then you should shift your focus to the reps (£275k annual budget). By all means keep your reps, but at least offer members the option of opting in or out of this premium service - with differential sub rates. I think we're approaching a crunch point, where some fairly important strategic decisions are made. Let's hope they're the right ones.
Levitt, I'm not advocating a reincarnation* of the ruling classes. No.
* or should that be resuscitation?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| Publishing - paper or electronic - is the key to the Club's future. |
I very much doubt that. Discounts and direct services such as Club holidays and repping are tangible offerings which are difficult to get from other sources. The provision of information and informed comment is readily available, often at no cost, all over the place.
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Well, I assume that you see snowHeads as having a future, Rob. The funny thing is that the SCGB was arguably this site's mother. Admin was its midwife.
One shouldn't rule out that the SCGB could be greatly slimmed down to a webforum-controlled democracy. Whatever the members decide on the forum happens. achilles touched on this type of strategy.
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| Well, I assume that you see snowHeads as having a future, Rob. |
Yes, for as long as people want to chat about skiing and other stuff, make and maintain friendships and occasionally meet on and off the slopes. The biggest threat to snowHeads is the turn-off (should that be log-off) from boring, inane conversations cluttering up the place.
One of the many differences between snowHeads and the Ski Club is that snowheads has relatively little financial overheads it needs to cover each year. No expensive property in south London, no employees, no repping service (although I've been guided on and off-piste by a fair few members of the forum), no paper-based publication to cross subsidize, etc, etc. I don't think the Ski Club could survive only as a publishing entity because I think the membership would shrink dramatically if that was all it did. As I said earlier, I might join to take advantage of the superb repping service in Les Arcs, without that there is no chance of me joining whatsoever.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| One shouldn't rule out that the SCGB could be greatly slimmed down to a webforum-controlled democracy. Whatever the members decide on the forum happens. achilles touched on this type of strategy. |
Just ripe for take-over by a small group of zealots. Yeah, that'll guarantee a healthy future for the club
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Poster: A snowHead
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Rob, next time you see the Les Arcs rep, maybe find out the cost of stationing him/her (and colleagues) there for the winter. Then ask how many SCGB members ski with the Les Arcs reps per winter. Add up the subs. As I've said, in resorts where the Club is having to meet the accommodation and sustenance costs, the disbalance must be enormous, and the members' subscriptions have to cover many other non-repping things.
The rep service is politically sustainable, for as long as the Club is run by the reps. It's not economically sustainable, with fewer than 20% of members using it per season.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| ... the SCGB could be greatly slimmed down to a webforum-controlled democracy. |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Just ripe for take-over by a small group of zealots. |
Hopefully not. Have you noticed that quite a few people use the internet these days? The Club's AGM is attended by about 100 people in a good year. The Chairman holds another 100-or-so proxy votes from members in a good year. The size of the electorate is actually (I think, because families are allowed 2 votes) around 25,000.
These forums have quite a few active participants, you'll notice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I see a 4 tier membership structure now emerging. I have been working on this all night and here it is:
Level 1 (£0.00 p.a.) - The "Get a life and just go skiing with other non-clubby pals" membership
Level 2 (£0.00 p.a.) - The "Stand there in WHSmith for 10 minutes and read S&B cover-to-cover for free" membership
The Ski Show Special Promo Level 1 & 2 Combo (£0.00 p.a. with reduction for senior citizens - includes free banning from the forum)
Level 3 (£275,000 divided by 'x' p.a. where 'x' is the number of people in level 3) - The "follow me awf-piste" membership
Level 4 (46.00 p.a.) - The "Enviroment-friendly" membership - includes levels 1 & 2 and a working ski trip by donkey cart to Salisbury Plain
I agree it's not perfect yet but I think we're getting somewhere.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David Goldsmith, of the 25,000 how many participate in the Ski Club's forum? I understand that there was an attempt at the last AGM to elect a number of people to the Club's Council who had a particular agenda. Much easier to orchestrate this online I think, and the natural apathy of the 25,000 could easily be a factor in allowing minority interests to take over. Just look at how much space on snowHeads is wasted on pointless discussion about T&Cs for example
On the repping service, which is one of the USPs of the Club, how many of the 20% who currently use it would cease membership if the service was withdrawn or neutered? What about the people who don't use it, some of whom might aspire to using it. Would some of those also cease membership? I'd guess they would. What about people like me who might join solely for the use of the service. Could the Club's finances survive perhaps a 20% reduction in subscription fees without major disruption? If it could I think the members should examine carefully just how much reserves are being accrued each year.
Earlier in this thread, or maybe one of the similar ones currently meandering along this part of the superhighway, you extolled the virtues of taking a vicarious interest in skiing unusual places. Laudable perhaps, but for the vast majority of skiers those unusual places are not in the far flung parts of the world featured in Ski & Board, but they are the great off-piste routes just over the next ridge in your favourite ski resort that a Club rep could guide you to. It seems contrary of you to hold up the magazine's promotion of taking an armchair interest in skiing unusual places, but to deny the much more realistic extension of Club members' personal skiing horizons by withdrawing the rep service. Very odd behaviour indeed, IMO.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
| It's [the repping service] not economically sustainable, with fewer than 20% of members using it per season. |
Just had a message from an impeccable person within the ski club, saying that Goldsmith is again being dishonest in his reportage.
| Quote: |
This subject has been discussed and it was agreed that all the members in the club who had been signed up by reps should have their subs attributed to the repping service.
There are thousands of members who are only members due to the reps. Let's say there are 10,000 memberships (conservative estimate) directly attributed to the reps this year. That's: £50 x 10,000 = £500,000.
And if you were to offer different packages, the repping service would still net a profit from sub each year. The idea (Goldsmith's) that only the subs of new rep sign ups should count each year is rubbish. He knows this but still he bangs on. A Ski Club Rep |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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[Context point: This is not the first website to call me Goldfish. mysnowsports.com demoted yours truly to 'fishlife' status on 27 June 2007:
http://mysnowsports.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1440&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
You gotta love webmeisters.]
rob@rar, we're at one in not believing that it's acceptable for a Club to be controlled by zealots or special interest groups. As I've pointed out earlier in this thread, the SCGB's constitution imposes a requirement that the Club's Council be representative of the membership (that's effectively the meaning of the clause).
I do know that Electoral Reform Ballot Services, which counts votes at the Club's AGM, has expressed concern at the very very low number of votes cast. I don't know if comparable organisations have introduced electronic voting, or other techniques.
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David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
| I do know that Electoral Reform Ballot Services, which counts votes at the Club's AGM, has expressed concern at the very very low number of votes cast. |
Did you say that officially? If they didn't and if you can't produce evidence that it was actually said officially, then it has to be taken with a pitch of salt. We don't live in a world where your word counts for much.
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David Goldsmith, I believe it was one of the highest turnouts for a long while - am I wrong?
I agree web publication will become more and more important - but S&B - which sometimes seems like one of those free mags you get on planes, has a fair amount of advertorial (and some of the other articles are writtien in the same style) and relatively little club specific material - may be doomed.
The rep service - as you well know - is rather highly valued - and even by those who have not skied with it in the last year - but your apparent animosity and obsession with it might blind you to that.
But you won't be happy untill the club exists exactly as you want it - and that ain't going to happen
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PJSki, I know that because an official from ERBS told me so. As a branch of the Electoral Reform Society you might expect them to express such a view. They're not a basket of bananas.
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FAQ
