 Poster: A snowHead
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| idkwia wrote: |
| Again I fail to see what the argument is here. If your qualification is not on a par with the French system you cannot get a job in the same way as if you want to work in a profession in the UK, if your qualification is not considered equivalent you cannot get a job. This is perfectly clear and perfectly fair. |
Did you read the thread on Facebook? I don't think there is much that is perfectly clear at the moment, and "perfectly fair" and "the law" don't always seem to go hand in hand.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| idkwia wrote: |
| Again I fail to see what the argument is here. If your qualification is not on a par with the French system you cannot get a job in the same way as if you want to work in a profession in the UK, if your qualification is not considered equivalent you cannot get a job. This is perfectly clear and perfectly fair. |
In simple terms, being a member of the European Union means that European citizens have the right to conduct their 'profession' in other EU states. So if you do a job in in the UK (or in any of the other EU countries) then you have the right to work in any other EU member state.
You will note that the argument isn't about working in Switzerland or Japan or Argentina or anywhere else that's outside of the EU.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque. If the other nations want equivalence then they just need to set a test the same as the Eurotest. There are thousands of French guys who would love to be ski instructors but whilst they may be the same standard as BASI 1, 2, or 3 they cannot work in France either because they are not good enough. So there is no discrimination about this.
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idkwia, I wasn't being specific about the Eurotest, though I don't think it should be needed to teach at a lower level of student. I'm far too old unless I train for at least a season specifically just for the Eurotest and if I'm lucky enough to get through that without injury . . . It would still be highly unlikely to snowflake in hell's chance of me passing.
And even then there is a dam good chance, based on past history, that the French would still nit-pick about equivalence standards.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, if the French were to allow lower level instructors to teach lower level students then it would be even more difficult for us Brits to get a job because as I have said earlier there are thousands and thousands of French people who would like to be ski instructors; there are many more of them than us Brits so there would be no jobs for us left.
If somebody has trained hard to become qualified under the French system it is surely not fair that someone like me comes along i.e. a BASI 2, and takes away his work because I am cheaper for a ski school to employ than he is.
If we want to work as a ski instructor then there are plenty of opportunities to do so in Austria, Switzerland, Andorra, Japan, NZ, Bulgaira and Canada so where's the problem.
Far more concerning in my opinion is the lack of British ski schools in Austria. At least the French allow us to open ski schools as long as everyone is adequately qualified and hence there are many. But to my knowledge there are none in Austria, why is that? This is a much more compelling concern I feel.
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idkwia, Can't argue with that 
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idkwia, the French do allow lower level instructors to teach though... just through their training system.
The problem comes presumably because people want to instruct in France and see that under EU law they should be entitled too?
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Meh, I am aware that lower level instructors can teach in France, I believe as Stagieres i.e. trainees, but they do need a certain level of qualification and can only teach for a limited time period which again is fair enough.
EU law states that you are entitled to work in another member country but only if your qualification is at least equivalent to the qualifications required by the relevant country. This of course only applies if the job requires a qualification. For example, if someone from another country wanted to work as a ski instructor in Aviemore they would have to hold at least the equivalent of the qualifications required. It is no good them crying "foul" if they cannot work because their qualifications are not considered at least equal to BASI 2.
The overriding problem here is the need for a worldwide agreement on equivalence or even a worldwide qualification. I believe it will happen one day but it is a long way off at the moment. As we all know there is a strong feeling in the UK at the moment that we should keep our national identity and not give up everything to Europe. This feeling no doubt exists in the other member states and so we cannot really admonish the French ski instructor association for wanting to keep a qualification system that they believe is appropriate, after all we wouldn't like it if we were being told what to do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| idkwia wrote: |
EU law states that you are entitled to work in another member country but only if your qualification is at least equivalent to the qualifications required by the relevant country. . |
It is not quite that. A country can't put up ridiculous requirements for equivalence that are not relevant to the job. The Eurotest may fall into that category. The Commission (under Savoyard commissioner Barnier) says the Eurotest is reasonable as countries can put up an additional qualification if they feel safety is an issue. However lower French courts have not found it proven that the Eurotest is a necessary part of the qualification system as SBS demonstrated. However this doesn't form any case law. It would require a decision under the current directives/legislation and for the French government to appeal any decision from the lower courts to a high court - they are not stupid and probably won't do this preferring SBS to have his local victory with little relevance to anyone else.
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idkwia, if they didn't want to be told what to do then why on earth did they sign the treaties binding them to do just that?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| idkwia wrote: |
| EU law states that you are entitled to work in another member country but only if your qualification is at least equivalent to the qualifications required by the relevant country. |
It's not that straightforward. It depends on whether the profession is regulated or not, it depends on how long you have been practicing your profession in your home country, it depends on whether you wish to provide a temporary service or to become fully established in the host country, it depends on who or how qualifications are compared, it depends on how the host country has enacted EU law into their statutes, and it depends on whether the national laws are actually followed by the local administration. It is anything but clear cut, and while I'm absolutely no expert on the law it seems to me that even within the French judicial system the different levels of court are reaching different conclusions.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| idkwia wrote: |
| For example, if someone from another country wanted to work as a ski instructor in Aviemore they would have to hold at least the equivalent of the qualifications required. It is no good them crying "foul" if they cannot work because their qualifications are not considered at least equal to BASI 2. |
Can you point me to the UK regulation that specifies that BASI 2 is the minimum level required to teach skiing in Aviemore ?
My understanding is that for the UK there is no Governmental regulation for ski instruction. It's actually up to the ski school, or more to the point their insurers. It is they who may state that L2 or equivalent is the minimum.
This points to the actual (but seemingly forgotten) reason why Instructors join organisations like BASI. That is to gain Professional Liability insurance which in turn gives work opportunities. If you are saying that L2 or L3 are not appropriate qualifications to teach skiing in a mountain environment then I have to wonder how BASI's insurer will take the news.
But hold on, but you do say that L2 is appropriate to teach in the mountains of Scotland. Perhaps the argumentis that the Scottish mountains (and some other European ones) are in some way easier or safer to teach in than the French ones?
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Andanotherthing, you are missing the point and interpreting what I said to suit your own argument.
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You know it makes sense.
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Rob@rar yes very interesting and what you say certainly makes sense and hence no doubt the crux of the problem.
Personally I hope to try for the Eurotest although the chances of me passing are nil. However, I think that the Eurotest has things in its favour in that pass or fail is not based on an assessor's opinion which is always problematical. There is an argument I suppose to make the pass time easier.
As I said in an earlier post if the level required in France drops then there will be many less jobs for us Brits as there are 1000s of French guys who would like to teach but cannot pass the current test. This would then cause the wages to drop which would have an effect in other ski countries.
Some people think that BASI Level 2 is too difficult and does not need to be that difficult to teach beginners.
Overall I think that the exam should be very tough. If I am not good enough then so be it. I can always work in Austria, Switzerland, Andorra, Bulgaria etc., so no problem.
How a court are going to be able to decide
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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idkwia, first, I think public laws should be put in place to serve the (skiing) public, not keep wages (and lesson prices) artificially high for a small group of workers. Second, I think competition is a good thing. I compete on service, not price. Other schools might aim to be the cheapest. That's fine, there is room in the market for innovation and quality as well as pile it high, sell it cheap. If getting the top level qualification is so demanding presumably it will make those instructors with that qualification stand out from other schools or instructors, therefore no need to worry about more competition from lower level instructors?
Why is it OK for you to work in Austria but not in another EU country? Seems a bit strange to me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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idkwia,
If we return to your carefully selected comparitor, ie the medical profession. Let us consider the following: Would one assess a doctor's competence by the speed with which he conducted a consultation?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
idkwia, first, I think public laws should be put in place to serve the (skiing) public, not keep wages (and lesson prices) artificially high for a small group of workers. Second, I think competition is a good thing. I compete on service, not price. Other schools might aim to be the cheapest. That's fine, there is room in the market for innovation and quality as well as pile it high, sell it cheap. If getting the top level qualification is so demanding presumably it will make those instructors with that qualification stand out from other schools or instructors, therefore no need to worry about more competition from lower level instructors?
Why is it OK for you to work in Austria but not in another EU country? Seems a bit strange to me. |
+1 on all counts.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bindingcheck, ha ha, obviously not a serious comment. If it is then you need to know that in order to get through a GS course at a certain speed your technique has to be top notch, that is why they test that way. So it is not left to the opinion of an assessor because as we all know that opinions can vary greatly. The test is designed to identify those candidates who have the best skiing ability. If a candidate has faults in his technique he won't pass, simple.
rob@rar, ok why don't we make the standard that you have to ski down a red run without falling over, then you can teach up to basic parallel, would that be ok?
In the meantime I have to admit that I don't know if it is a state law in France regarding the qualification of ski instructors, is that indeed the case?
It is OK for me to work in several other European states because their ski authorities have decided that I have attained the level of skiing ability to be equivalent to at least their lower level of qualifications. This is life. I wanted to go to Cambridge University but my grades weren't good enough, I didn't say "that's not fair its too difficult." In every walk of life we are graded, sometimes we may be good enough other times not. To many people, the Eurotest is a piece of cake.
Every country that has a ski instructor's association have come up with a qualification system. None of them are the same and so some are going to be more difficult than others. If one group of ski professionals think that its qualifictions should be the most difficult in the world then that is their prerogative.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| idkwia wrote: |
| rob@rar, ok why don't we make the standard that you have to ski down a red run without falling over, then you can teach up to basic parallel, would that be ok? |
The majority of countries (that require an instructor's qualification) seem to settle around the level of a BASI L2 (e.g. similar qualifications from PSIA, NZSIA, CSIA, Austrian Anwerter, etc, etc). That, to me, seems like a good entry point level. You'll be assessed on your ability to safely manage a group on piste and provide a good enough level of service for most holiday skiers.
| idkwia wrote: |
| In the meantime I have to admit that I don't know if it is a state law in France regarding the qualification of ski instructors, is that indeed the case? |
In France ski instruction is a regulated profession, therefore it is up to national and regional government to set the regulations within which an instructor must operate. It is not up to a group of ski professionals such as the ESF to decide what the regulations are.
| idkwia wrote: |
| It is OK for me to work in several other European states because their ski authorities have decided that I have attained the level of skiing ability to be equivalent to at least their lower level of qualifications. This is life. I wanted to go to Cambridge University but my grades weren't good enough, I didn't say "that's not fair its too difficult." |
I don't think that is a suitable analogy. There are EU-wide laws about mutual recognition of qualifications and professional experience. France, as an enthusiastic champion of the European ideal, have built these principles in to their national laws. There are currently questions about whether their administrative procedures actually are in keeping with their existing laws. I would urge you to read the long thread in the BASI Members group on Facebook as it would give you lots of up to date information.
| idkwia wrote: |
| If one group of ski professionals think that its qualifictions should be the most difficult in the world then that is their prerogative. |
Actually, it isn't in France. It is the government's responsibility.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| idkwia wrote: |
| Every country that has a ski instructor's association have come up with a qualification system. None of them are the same and so some are going to be more difficult than others. If one group of ski professionals think that its qualifictions should be the most difficult in the world then that is their prerogative. |
In a strict sense yes: a group of ski professionals can define any system of qualifications they like. What they cannot do is impose them on the public (would-be instructors and would-be customers) in a way that effectively prevents trade; that requires laws.
Within the EU, such laws enact EU directives, themselves designed to ensure the free movement of labour, a founding principle of the EU. Thus member countries are not free to demand arbitrarily difficult-to-achieve qualifications for nationals of other countries wishing to practise in their own.
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| idkwia wrote: |
| Andanotherthing, you are missing the point and interpreting what I said to suit your own argument. |
If France were not in the EU there would be no need for an argument.
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Guys, it is an interesting debate but I have spent enough time on it now and thank you for your interesting thoughts. I am expecting that one day the courts will decide.
In leaving this topic I would like to say that I have skied in Tignes for 9 weeks since this time last year, always with instruction. You can be assured that there is absolutely no shortage of instructors in the Espace Killy and it is certainly not expensive to have lessons, particularly with the ESF. Therefore, where is the problem?
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idkwia, glad you're a satisfied customer, but you cannot assume your experience and opinion are the same for everyone. Merry Christmas.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| idkwia wrote: |
| Therefore, where is the problem? |
There might be a problem with regional authorities in France not enacting French employment laws with regard to ski instructors. There might be a problem that French national laws don't comply with EU laws. Or they might not be a problem at all. Whether your experience in Tignes has been acceptable to you or not is, I humbly suggest, irrelevant.
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| Bindingcheck wrote: |
| Would one assess a doctor's competence by the speed with which he conducted a consultation? |
Of course not, we select doctors using a test that has no relationship at all with what they will do in their job - A levels.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rjs,
Fair point, however I was trying to raise the issue that speed and competence are not, in the case of a doctor making a diagnoses and a ski instructor who is teaching skiing, necessarily compatible.
Congratulations to all on the very measured responses. And if idkwia is still tuning in, the European Court has already decided on several cases - France lost each time - and there are several cases currently proceding through courts, state and European. Currently 'ESF" only wins at local level.
While it only forms a side show to the Eurotest, how do we feel about the French rules that prevents British Ski Schools from having a structure which includes Level 2 or Level 3 instructors. According to the JDS only French qualified instructors are capable of running a ski school.
Don't forget to vote for Alpine Director and to read carefully how the Chairman proposes to change the way that BASI is structured.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
| Bindingcheck wrote: |
| Would one assess a doctor's competence by the speed with which he conducted a consultation? |
Of course not, we select doctors using a test that has no relationship at all with what they will do in their job - A levels. |
That's not quite true. A levels are used by universities along with, for nearly all the UK medical schools, an aptitude test called the BMAT or UK CAT. This combined with, again for most, an interview is about the only way they can determine those with some aptitude and also the academic determination and ability to get through Medical school.
It may not be perfect but it does seem to work pretty well.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| idkwia wrote: |
| Therefore, where is the problem? |
There might be a problem with regional authorities in France not enacting French employment laws with regard to ski instructors. There might be a problem that French national laws don't comply with EU laws. Or they might not be a problem at all. Whether your experience in Tignes has been acceptable to you or not is, I humbly suggest, irrelevant. |
I said I would be leaving this debate but would like to answer the above if I may: - a number of the posts here are making the point that the current French system denies competition, denies the skiing public good value and denies people work. The point I was making is that there is no shortage of ski instructors in two of the largest resorts in France. Apart from the ESF there are many other ski schools particularly British ones and all of them are actively looking for work. The prices are varied and the types of courses each school run are different from the next. Therefore there is a healthy competition and if anything there are too many instructors. Therefore whilst the current French system may or may not be breaking EU law it is wrong to say that it denies fair trade.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rjs wrote: |
| Bindingcheck wrote: |
| Would one assess a doctor's competence by the speed with which he conducted a consultation? |
Of course not, we select doctors using a test that has no relationship at all with what they will do in their job - A levels. |
Don't be ridiculous.
So you think they do a few A levels and that's it? I think you need to think again.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| laundryman wrote: |
| idkwia, glad you're a satisfied customer, but you cannot assume your experience and opinion are the same for everyone. Merry Christmas. |
I don't............. and neither can you.
I have been involved as an instructor for 28 years and when I started people were talking about this same issue. The reason it has gone on so long is because there are so many opinions and yours and mine are just two of numerous.
I am off to Austria next week. No British Ski Schools there, wonder why that is? Now that is a can of worms!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| idkwia wrote: |
| I said I would be leaving this debate but would like to answer the above if I may: - a number of the posts here are making the point that the current French system denies competition, denies the skiing public good value and denies people work. The point I was making is that there is no shortage of ski instructors in two of the largest resorts in France. Apart from the ESF there are many other ski schools particularly British ones and all of them are actively looking for work. The prices are varied and the types of courses each school run are different from the next. Therefore there is a healthy competition and if anything there are too many instructors. Therefore whilst the current French system may or may not be breaking EU law it is wrong to say that it denies fair trade. |
Sounds like you are trying to make two opposing points: allowing instructors without Eurotest is going to reduce wages/prices by increasing competition; the market is functioning well and leads to varied products at different prices. Which is it, it can't be both? However, I reiterate my point. I'm interested in French & EU law being followed, not what you think works well in Espace Killy (which really isn't typical of the multitude of resorts across France).
My sister is skiing in Les Arcs this February half term. She can't get lessons for her kids in the British ski school because they are already fully booked. Surely there are some good L2 or L3 instructors who would be able to a great job with NewGen clients and are happy to get a few weeks work in the peak period to earn some money when they are training or because it is a part-time job for them?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| idkwia wrote: |
| I am off to Austria next week. No British Ski Schools there, wonder why that is? |
Do you know why? Genuine question, I have no idea.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| idkwia wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| idkwia wrote: |
| Therefore, where is the problem? |
There might be a problem with regional authorities in France not enacting French employment laws with regard to ski instructors. There might be a problem that French national laws don't comply with EU laws. Or they might not be a problem at all. Whether your experience in Tignes has been acceptable to you or not is, I humbly suggest, irrelevant. |
I said I would be leaving this debate but would like to answer the above if I may: - a number of the posts here are making the point that the current French system denies competition, denies the skiing public good value and denies people work. The point I was making is that there is no shortage of ski instructors in two of the largest resorts in France. Apart from the ESF there are many other ski schools particularly British ones and all of them are actively looking for work. The prices are varied and the types of courses each school run are different from the next. Therefore there is a healthy competition and if anything there are too many instructors. Therefore whilst the current French system may or may not be breaking EU law it is wrong to say that it denies fair trade. |
The French system is changing actually; the relevant authorities have been forced to admit that they were making foreign instructors jump through a hoop not required by the French on declaration. So which is fairer - last season's (illegal) system or this season's? I think fairness is subjective here. Free-ness isn't though, and there's no doubting the French system (as was) was more restrictive than most, if not all. It remains to be seen how much the French system frees up in practice.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| idkwia wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| idkwia, glad you're a satisfied customer, but you cannot assume your experience and opinion are the same for everyone. Merry Christmas. |
I don't............. and neither can you. |
The difference is, I don't seek to justify limitations on your freedom to buy or sell ski instruction services as you wish, on the basis of my personal experience or opinion (or, indeed, at all).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| idkwia wrote: |
| I am off to Austria next week. No British Ski Schools there, wonder why that is? |
Do you know why? Genuine question, I have no idea. |
Not an official response, but from memory I think it's something to do with the lengthy list of requirements needed to open a ski school - e.g. I think you need to be a fully qualified mountain guide as well as instructor. I may be wrong - will try to find out.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You do need to be a qualified mountain guide and also hold some tourist qualification to run a ski school in Austria. The other reason is simply that the BASI system is modeled on the French system as it is the largest market and where you can make the most money because of the restrictions in France. If anything, though the standards need to be increased not decreased to protect the public. Probably,the biggest name in the UK really should not be heading up a ski school and the quality of instruction at another big name is poor although they admit they would rather be instructing rather than pandering to the egos of UK holiday makers. If the concern, really , is to protect the qulaity of the product that the public receives then existing standards need to be enforced and increased to protect an unwary public.
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TTT,
?????
If I am to understand your post you need to elaborate and not infer.
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TTT, the skiing public is grown up enough to look after itself in a free market. The only thing "raising standards" (in reality, creating hoops that are irrelevant to most punters) will do is drive up prices, reduce innovation and drive people into the hands of "mates".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm sure SW knows what I'm talking about. If it's true that the public can protect themselves then some of the biggest names in the industry would not have such a bad reputation amongst their peers. The public go for marketing rather than understanding of the product. Based on experience, I would recommend checking and gaining an understanding of the different qualifications, reputation and to try different suppliers.
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TTT, if the customers are happy, where's the problem? Names don't get big in any line of business without satisfied customers.
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FAQ
