 Poster: A snowHead
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@Hurtle, someone who needs a job badly? It could be that his 5 active companies include 2-3 that are struggling because they're related to the ski and travel industry. He certainly seems to have the networking and presentation skills to make some difference, but whether he can handle managing upwards to keep the council from drifting back into fantasy land remains to be seen.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
| ...you've got the wrong entry - Companies House is not very good at master data management, so even though they have the full name, date of birth and address of a person, they still have multiple "person" records for them because the system didn't join the dots..... |
Good to know - thanks for pointing that out. Nothing in there is inconsistent with what's been said. The aggregate isn't much.
This is a sideshow though - they want a "servant", not someone to fix the problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@philwig,
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This is a sideshow though - they want a "servant", not someone to fix the problem.
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I suspect the executive board assumes they themselves have answers to the organisation’s problems.
The so called ‘servant’
is simply required to execute their plans in order to turn around their fortunes.
Can anyone disabuse me of that notion?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@PeakyB, Can anyone disabuse me of that notion?
No, to repeat myself, it's the board of a failing organisation advertising a senior role with the proviso "Under no circumstances are you to tell us where we are going wrong".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Correct, Companies House will often not pick up all the directorships because some people use different service addresses for different companies and some people also like to, ahem, keep one set of directorships away from another 
From what I can tell, Listex was morphed into Mountain Trade Network and a newco was incorporated - https://companycheck.co.uk/company/11737462/MOUNTAIN-BUSINESS-365-LIMITED/companies-house-data
So he has a company called Listex Ltd still live but without a product, and Mountain Business 365 Ltd now the legal owner of Listex and other trade things.
The micro accounts filed up to end March 2020 do show net assets of £67.7k but they also show creditors of £104k falling due after one year - bounce back loan? Whatever it is, if the trade show is now under a new Ltd company it is hard to see how that company keeps going as a going concern. They really need me doing the DD 
| PeakyB wrote: |
The so called ‘servant’ is simply required to execute their plans in order to turn around their fortunes.
Can anyone disabuse me of that notion? |
It looks to me, based on the job application, that that is in fact the situation. I've sat on quite a few boards and THE worst of all are those made up of unpaid volunteers. Unless board members have 'skin in the game' ie an investment, they don't drive the business forward with all the gusto and hard-nosed commercial decision making required. Volunteers are all too often there because they like the sound of it on their CV or at dinner parties. In that situation you need a CEO who can demonstrably run a business and move it forwards. I really don't think the servant idea has legs do you?
| eblunt wrote: |
@PeakyB, Can anyone disabuse me of that notion?
No, to repeat myself, it's the board of a failing organisation advertising a senior role with the proviso "Under no circumstances are you to tell us where we are going wrong". |
Yep, doomed from the get go - the classic one being the idea that they can circumvent a French court ruling by inventing 'social reps' organised via an app. If I were the new general manager I'd be distancing myself from such activities!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I can see how member led skiing might work but not through "official" reps. It may even be perfectly legal to have a totally unpaid rep voluntarily lead groups of peers, though it might be easier if such leadership was not "official" given history in France and in any case there would still be the issue of avoiding all subsidy.
But if you solve for that - it becomes little different to a sH posting up here:
sH1: I'm in resort X between Y and Z looking for tips on best offpiste skiing and people to ski with.
sH2: Sure. I'm in X for the season happy to show you around.
sH3: Ooh mind if I join you?
etc....
Of course on sHs we then probably wouldn't produce our 50m swimming badges....
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@Dave of the Marmottes, minimum 100m to join this group, ta-ra old boy!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@maggi, Maybe it's skiing in a big lorry ?
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Better be careful. People are vunnrable to the cold in the Artic.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think interpreting that is straightforward and there's little benefit to dragging it out here. I'd say they got what they asked for.
| Pruman wrote: |
| ... Unless board members have 'skin in the game' ie an investment, they don't drive the business forward ... |
I've seen problems with charitable organisations running businesses which may have the same cause.
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As far as finding someone somewhere to ski/ ride with...
Has no one yet built and failed with a sort of skier dating app for that?
You can see how you'd build such a thing, I just wonder if it's been done or not, and what happened?
The only stuff i know if which does that is the "ride boards" on some forums, where people
post which obscure USA hill they're going to be at the coming weekend. Those are useful, but
the business model is just advertising which may not pay the infrastructure costs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| eblunt wrote: |
| @maggi, Maybe it's skiing in a big lorry ? |
If they read the article will they be transported with delight? 
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| maggi wrote: |
| Skiing the Artic with Bruce Goodlad" |
What a freightening prospect.
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You know it makes sense.
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Oh come on it's quite clearly a typo. Should be "Skimming on Artex" - There's good money in plastering...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Maybe it's a trip for Ski Mojo users?
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Poster: A snowHead
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FWIW James Gambrill will not be running LISTEX or MTN and will focus on the new role. I've known James for 20+ years and while 'sorting out' the Ski Club sounds like a serious challenge, I back him to do a good job of it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| maggi wrote: |
Just had an email from SCGB with the subject header, "Join now - Skiing the Artic with Bruce Goodlad"
Perhaps they should employ a proofreader  . |
Well quite, maybe even take note of spellcheck? Perhaps they should start by employing people who care (hopefully like the new GM), perhaps they should appoint council members who make it their business to police these things, perhaps they should take a step back and ask themselves collectively why people are leaving in large numbers - don't worry, we can blame Brexit, the pandemic, the previous CEO.
The evidence that nobody cares, nobody loves it, is all around us. The 'News' section has about one new item per month, and sometimes only if there is a paying partner behind it. The latest piece:
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/news/uk-news/2021/05/plans-announced-for-new-south-wales-snowdome - no copy. Nobody thought to actually check that the article was displaying. Lazy, lazy, lazy, nobody cares.
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-events/ski-with-the-club-summer how to sign up... coming soon. The event is only about 6 weeks away.
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-events/talk-series far too much "coming soon" - if you haven't got the sign-up mechanism sorted don't put the event up.
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-events/member-meet-up - nobody has put forward an event, not even a dog walk or bike ride or transceiver hunt. Lack of member engagement should be a big alarm bell.
My biggest concern, if I were in charge, would be the reps program.
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-reps - despite the fact they are not leading (unless 'under the radar' in civvies and mingled in with the group - a potential legal nightmare), they do appear to be working. Arranging social skiing and evening events is in fact working. But didn't we leave the EU fairly recently and are you allowed to work like that? I don't think so, not without ze papers! What are the club doing to ensure they are on the right side of the law? Being a volunteer but with benefits in kind probably constitutes work requiring work permit, taxation status etc etc. It's not volunteering in the strictest sense of volunteering - there is a fee paying customer (member), a UK Ltd company with a commercial motive (especially true on a Fresh Tracks holiday), and a rep who is having their expenses paid. I have a feeling the French would view that as working and therefore subject to the usual regs. Any experts care to comment.
The Club says:
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| Our Ski Club Reps are volunteers, meaning that they are not paid for their services. They do, however, receive some benefits in kind such as accommodation, lift pass and a meal allowance whilst in resort. |
The below sounds like working, right?:
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They have four mains aims:
Facilitating and organising social skiing for groups of Members
Promoting safe and responsible recreational skiing
Arranging a fun and varied weekly events plan, including lunch meetups and après drinks
Ensuring Members are aware of the fantastic range of Ski Club benefits and discounts
They’ll be also be on hand to assist you with any resort-specific information you may need, so if you’re looking to book a mountain guide, take some lessons or want recommendations for the best activities in the area, your Rep is the first port of call. |
And they appear to be flogging the chance to become a rep (and/or potential prison inmate) on a course in Tignes in December 2021. Hit the link - 404 page not found. Brilliant.
They are clinging like mad to the main USP of having reps, but can it work going forwards if we are out of the EU (which we are by the way!)
Again, I sincerely wish the incoming GM the best of luck but he should be very wary of taking orders from Council and blindly facilitating them. On his Linkedin, he describes himself as 'a business growth strategist'
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Neither the UK nor the EU have relaxed their views on illegal migrant workers as far as I know.
However presumably they would need to pull the same "working whilst pretending to volunteer" thing
in other places like Canada. I've dealt a lot with Canadian immigration over the years, and I think they'd
be wise to that one. How was that done legally for non-EU workers in the last active season, I wonder?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Pruman wrote: |
My biggest concern, if I were in charge, would be the reps program.
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-reps - despite the fact they are not leading (unless 'under the radar' in civvies and mingled in with the group - a potential legal nightmare), they do appear to be working. Arranging social skiing and evening events is in fact working. But didn't we leave the EU fairly recently and are you allowed to work like that? I don't think so, not without ze papers! What are the club doing to ensure they are on the right side of the law? Being a volunteer but with benefits in kind probably constitutes work requiring work permit, taxation status etc etc. It's not volunteering in the strictest sense of volunteering - there is a fee paying customer (member), a UK Ltd company with a commercial motive (especially true on a Fresh Tracks holiday), and a rep who is having their expenses paid. I have a feeling the French would view that as working and therefore subject to the usual regs. Any experts care to comment.
The Club says:
| Quote: |
| Our Ski Club Reps are volunteers, meaning that they are not paid for their services. They do, however, receive some benefits in kind such as accommodation, lift pass and a meal allowance whilst in resort. |
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They would need to take sound legal advice from a competent French lawyer specialized in employment law.
I remember the Ltd Co was the big red flag for the French but I'm not familiar with the court case. This will still be a problem if they restart activities. The French often use the structure of a "1901 Law Association" for this kind of thing - it is possible the skiclub's lawyer wasn't able to argue that a Ltd Co is a similar vehicle.
Basically 1901 Law associations can be the same as an English Unincorporated association but they also be declared to the prefecture or agreed associations (which would be similar to the Ski Club's structure).
In general, to teach, lead, accompany any sporting activity for remuneration you need to be qualified and hold a carte pro in France.
If you are doing it on a voluntary basis then the French state are not interested. However club groups would need insurance cover and generally leaders undertake some kind of training programme etc to satisfy their insurers that there is some due diligence.
So is a ski club rep a volunteer. Well that is where things get tricky.
This is what the FFS says for their instructors (and ski club leaders would be under the constraints)
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| Règles générales : C’est un enseignement donné à titre BENEVOLE. Tout titulaire d’un titre fédéral qui exercerait contre rémunération serait en infraction avec la loi. |
and what is a benevole ?
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peuvent-ils recevoir une rémunération en contrepartie de leur intervention ? En effet, il peut arriver qu’ils aient à engager certains frais dans le cadre de leur activité de bénévolat. Dans ce cas, un organisme associatif a tout à fait la possibilité de prévoir des dispositifs pour les dédommager.
Comme vous le savez certainement, le bénévolat est une activité qui s’effectue entièrement à titre gracieux. Par conséquent, les bénévoles ne peuvent nullement prétendre à aucun type de rémunération, et ce, qu’il s’agisse de :
Sommes versées (primes, indemnités, etc.)
Prestations en nature (repas, transport, hébergement…)
Si l’association loi 1901 décide malgré tout de les rémunérer ou de leur octroyer des avantages en nature, alors, le juge aura toute liberté de reconsidérer la relation entre la structure et les volontaires. Dans ces conditions, il exigera de l’organisme concerné la requalification du statut des bénévoles. Ce qui implique :
L’obligation de cotiser au régime général de la sécurité sociale
Le respect et l’application des dispositions de la règlementation du travail. Notamment en ce qui concerne les normes d’hygiène et de sécurité.
En outre, le juge peut condamner l’association pour travail dissimulé, une situation à haut risque qu’il vaut mieux éviter. De fait, l’association s’expose au paiement d’une lourde amende allant jusqu’à 225 000 € (pour les personnes morales).
Les bénévoles d’une association ont-ils droit à un remboursement des frais ?
Les bénévoles peuvent parfaitement bien demander le remboursement des frais qu’il a engagé pour le compte de l’organisme associatif, par exemple : indemnités kilométriques. D’ailleurs, ce remboursement ne fait en aucune façon l’objet de cotisations sociales ou de taxation à l’impôt sur le revenu.
Les remboursements de frais ne sont cependant possibles que sous certaines conditions. D’une part, ils doivent répondre à des frais justifiés. De ce fait, la présentation des factures justificatives (billet de train, justificatif de péage, note de restaurant, facture de commerçant…) est de mise. D’autre part, ces remboursements de frais doivent correspondre à des frais réels. Autrement dit, il faut que le dédommagement réalisé s’accorde au montant indiqué sur la facture.
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In short, expenses are allowable under certain conditions.
It would need specialist advice to know what is possible but if the money could be subject to tax or social charges it is remuneration. For example giving your leaders a voucher for Snow and Rock would be remuneration. Paying for their training and uniforms would be expenses. Paying for travel, a room in resort to accompany a group or lunch would be expenses according to one lawyer I asked who is specialized in the third sector but the idea of basing someone in resort for months on end waiting for punters to turn up may not fly, nor could you give any orders to your resort servant or give them any objectives like finding 2 new members per week. The "leader" may have to travel out and back with a group for example.
It would be worth talking to say Paris based ski clubs to see how they organize their leaders and instructors as they face similar issues to the ski club.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 17-05-21 15:51; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
My biggest concern, if I were in charge, would be the reps program.
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-reps - despite the fact they are not leading (unless 'under the radar' in civvies and mingled in with the group - a potential legal nightmare), they do appear to be working. Arranging social skiing and evening events is in fact working. But didn't we leave the EU fairly recently and are you allowed to work like that? I don't think so, not without ze papers! What are the club doing to ensure they are on the right side of the law? Being a volunteer but with benefits in kind probably constitutes work requiring work permit, taxation status etc etc. It's not volunteering in the strictest sense of volunteering - there is a fee paying customer (member), a UK Ltd company with a commercial motive (especially true on a Fresh Tracks holiday), and a rep who is having their expenses paid. I have a feeling the French would view that as working and therefore subject to the usual regs. Any experts care to comment.
The Club says:
| Quote: |
| Our Ski Club Reps are volunteers, meaning that they are not paid for their services. They do, however, receive some benefits in kind such as accommodation, lift pass and a meal allowance whilst in resort. |
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They would need to take sound legal advice from a French lawyer specialized in employment law.
I remember the Ltd Co was the big red flag for the French but I'm not familiar with the court case. This will still be a problem if they restart activities.
In general, to teach, lead, accompany any sporting activity for remuneration you need to be qualified and hold a carte pro in France.
If you are doing it on a voluntary basis then the French state are not interested. However club groups would need insurance cover and generally leaders undertake some kind of training programme etc to satisfy their insurers that there is some due diligence.
So is a ski club rep a volunteer. Well that is where things get tricky.
This is what the FFS says for their instructors
| Quote: |
| Règles générales : C’est un enseignement donné à titre BENEVOLE. Tout titulaire d’un titre fédéral qui exercerait contre rémunération serait en infraction avec la loi. |
and what is a benevole ?
| Quote: |
peuvent-ils recevoir une rémunération en contrepartie de leur intervention ? En effet, il peut arriver qu’ils aient à engager certains frais dans le cadre de leur activité de bénévolat. Dans ce cas, un organisme associatif a tout à fait la possibilité de prévoir des dispositifs pour les dédommager.
Comme vous le savez certainement, le bénévolat est une activité qui s’effectue entièrement à titre gracieux. Par conséquent, les bénévoles ne peuvent nullement prétendre à aucun type de rémunération, et ce, qu’il s’agisse de :
Sommes versées (primes, indemnités, etc.)
Prestations en nature (repas, transport, hébergement…)
Si l’association loi 1901 décide malgré tout de les rémunérer ou de leur octroyer des avantages en nature, alors, le juge aura toute liberté de reconsidérer la relation entre la structure et les volontaires. Dans ces conditions, il exigera de l’organisme concerné la requalification du statut des bénévoles. Ce qui implique :
L’obligation de cotiser au régime général de la sécurité sociale
Le respect et l’application des dispositions de la règlementation du travail. Notamment en ce qui concerne les normes d’hygiène et de sécurité.
En outre, le juge peut condamner l’association pour travail dissimulé, une situation à haut risque qu’il vaut mieux éviter. De fait, l’association s’expose au paiement d’une lourde amende allant jusqu’à 225 000 € (pour les personnes morales).
Les bénévoles d’une association ont-ils droit à un remboursement des frais ?
Les bénévoles peuvent parfaitement bien demander le remboursement des frais qu’il a engagé pour le compte de l’organisme associatif, par exemple : indemnités kilométriques. D’ailleurs, ce remboursement ne fait en aucune façon l’objet de cotisations sociales ou de taxation à l’impôt sur le revenu.
Les remboursements de frais ne sont cependant possibles que sous certaines conditions. D’une part, ils doivent répondre à des frais justifiés. De ce fait, la présentation des factures justificatives (billet de train, justificatif de péage, note de restaurant, facture de commerçant…) est de mise. D’autre part, ces remboursements de frais doivent correspondre à des frais réels. Autrement dit, il faut que le dédommagement réalisé s’accorde au montant indiqué sur la facture.
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In short, expenses are allowable under certain conditions.
It would need specialist advice to know what is possible. It would be worth talking to say Paris based ski clubs to see how they organize their leaders and instructors as they face similar issues to the ski club. |
Well you've done the hard work. Given that SCGB have had over 12 months since they ousted Holt question is whether they have a French legal opinion or indeed practical advice from peer type organisations if they want to bring back repping of old? Otherwise it's all very well selling a hope but a bit too late (like 3-4 years).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Well you've done the hard work. Given that SCGB have had over 12 months since they ousted Holt question is whether they have a French legal opinion or indeed practical advice from peer type organisations if they want to bring back repping of old? Otherwise it's all very well selling a hope but a bit too late (like 3-4 years). |
I updated what I wrote as I spoke to a French lawyer about it. Their first question was "why can't they find volunteers in France?, why do they have to bring them over from England at vast expense?"
so clearly the model is going to raise questions.
You raise some good but obvious questions and I suppose we'll have to wait and see. It still appears that they want to carry on as before and find someone to make this happen but maybe we are wrong?
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Ah the geezeronaire volunteer model - as pioneered by@snowcrazy post his "career" with SCGB.......
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Ah the geezeronaire volunteer model - as pioneered by@snowcrazy post his "career" with SCGB....... |
Yes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| ... a French lawyer about it. Their first question was "why can't they find volunteers in France?, why do they have to bring them over from England at vast expense?"... |
Is same question essentially you need if you don't have Freedom of Movement and you want to hire anyone from anywhere, in my experience anyway. I think the idea is that it helps people in the North of England get fruit picking and other low-paid work, so they can go to Eton. I think that's it.
| Quote: |
| geezeronaire volunteer model - as pioneered by@snowcrazy post his "career" with SCGB...... |
I'm lost. But not in France. What's that, then?
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@davidof, The page doesn't actually have any French resorts listed, so already this suggests they don't think is passes the French legal test.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
They would need to take sound legal advice from a competent French lawyer specialized in employment law.
I remember the Ltd Co was the big red flag for the French but I'm not familiar with the court case. This will still be a problem if they restart activities. The French often use the structure of a "1901 Law Association" for this kind of thing - it is possible the skiclub's lawyer wasn't able to argue that a Ltd Co is a similar vehicle.
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In retrospect I wonder whether the change in the SCGB's legal status from a member's club to a Ltd company caused the French authorities to view their leading activities on the slopes less favourably, the law of unintended consequences perhaps....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| eblunt wrote: |
| @davidof, The page doesn't actually have any French resorts listed, so already this suggests they don't think is passes the French legal test. |
I've not read the page, but there was some mention of France and restarting the reps service in this thread that came from the recent zoom meeting:
"there is a Commitment to reintroduce volunteer member-led skiing particularly in France"
so the question is, is this legally possible.
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| davidof wrote: |
| eblunt wrote: |
| @davidof, The page doesn't actually have any French resorts listed, so already this suggests they don't think is passes the French legal test. |
I've not read the page, but there was some mention of France and restarting the reps service in this thread that came from the recent zoom meeting:
"there is a Commitment to reintroduce volunteer member-led skiing particularly in France"
so the question is, is this legally possible. |
Currently their answer would appear to be no - "Although we are unable to place Reps in French resorts, we do run our Instructor Led Guiding (I.L.G) service"
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You know it makes sense.
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| eblunt wrote: |
| Currently their answer would appear to be no - "Although we are unable to place Reps in French resorts, we do run our Instructor Led Guiding (I.L.G) service" |
At a cost per person who uses the service that is actually higher than if it was booked as a private group. Great. This is one of the reasons I cancelled my membership.
I think it is a real shame that the SCGB has self-destructed. I don't really understand how it managed to do that to itself.
Many organisations rapidly transform from doing what they were set out to do into doing what is in the interests of the organisation / the people who run it. Like Oxfam (I've also stopped giving what was once a lot of money to Oxfam).
Perhaps the change could be looked in a more positive light- how did SCGB mange to keep going so well for so long?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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[quote="ed123"]
| eblunt wrote: |
I think it is a real shame that the SCGB has self-destructed. I don't really understand how it managed to do that to itself.
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I think part of the answer is that the people running the SCGB have not tried hard enough to find out and take heed of what all members want. Perhaps too much attention has been given to what a minority of members want. I have enjoyed many years as a member, initially skiing with reps and then on Freshtracks holidays, but have never really felt that my feedback was valued. I fear that the "Council knows best" attitude may be continuing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ed123 wrote: |
"...we do run our Instructor Led Guiding (I.L.G) service"
At a cost per person who uses the service that is actually higher than if it was booked as a private group. Great. This is one of the reasons I cancelled my membership.
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Probably anyone who isn't in a group big enough to do that?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ed123 wrote: |
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I think it is a real shame that the SCGB has self-destructed. I don't really understand how it managed to do that to itself.
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It's not hard to understand if you consider it an organisation led predominantly by older white technophobic males (with some females), a bit of class baggage and a failure to grasp what the internet was really faciliating in terms of communication, communities and monetisation# To me having seen the club at large both at home and abroad I can see how pandering the the demographic of "their own" led them to miss "everyone else" and now "everyone else" vastly outnumbers the dwindling numbers of their own.
Granted law and circumstances haven't favoured their core offering(s) but they could have acted proactively and put different models in place. Just like they could have had a compelling digital presence at a fraction of the cost of what they've ended up scrapping if they had understood what they were dealing with. And less said the better about the very public and seemingly very selfish pro Brexit sentiment from a certain Council member (I'm sure there are others) despite the additional hurdles it presents to all British skiers from the end of traditional chalet holidays to additional aggro on journeys and certainly the erosion of what the SCGB might legally do in EU and EEA countries.
Despite that I'd like to see them turn it around not least so there might be a progressive option to consider in my dotage for trips or skiing companions. I suspect it's turning radius however exceeds that of the Titanic.
#to be fair there were far bigger casualities of this than SCGB - whither AOL, Yahoo etc?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 18-05-21 15:01; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| philwig wrote: |
| illegal migrant workers |
As it stands, I believe that's what the reps going to France, Austria and Italy would be classed as if they are UK citizens and haven't gone through the necessary bureaucracy. Volunteers or not, it's remunerated work. The club has taken a lot of legal advice in France, but I think they badly badly need it in other EU/EEA countries too (never mind USA/Canada for the moment!) Did anyone mention that on the Zoom call? Don't think so. In a nutshell, what I'm suggesting is that the whole Rep program isn't viable anymore. Am I wrong?
More worrying - there seems to be an attitude among some current and ex board members that "we can sneak around all that" and start leading again. It's over.
| davidof wrote: |
| eblunt wrote: |
| @davidof, The page doesn't actually have any French resorts listed, so already this suggests they don't think is passes the French legal test. |
I've not read the page, but there was some mention of France and restarting the reps service in this thread that came from the recent zoom meeting:
"there is a Commitment to reintroduce volunteer member-led skiing particularly in France"
so the question is, is this legally possible. |
For just being a resort rep off-snow I think the answer is probably "Yes, possible" but only if employment law is followed. That would mean offering the position to an EU or EEA national first, doing all the necessary paperwork, suffering the red tape, the waiting time and doing it for each and every resort rep. IMV this has nothing to do with skiing activity, it's all about nationality and applicable employment laws. If the club think they can restart on-snow repping in France then the answer has to be "Non" unless Reps suddenly get themselves Irish passports and a Carte Pro - unlikely on many fronts!
I should have made it clear yesterday that this is not just about France and it's not even about skiing - as you all know, Italy and Austria are EU nations, Switzerland is EEA, and the club intends sending reps to 15 resorts across those nations too. Newsflash - UK Leaves EU. As it stands, without following the law in each country, the reps would be working illegally. That would almost certainly invalidate the club's liability insurance and also the individual rep's travel insurance. Not only that, the individual reps will need to think about whether or not they are happy to take personal responsibility, potentially get a criminal record - is it worth it for a train/air ticket, accommodation, lift pass and food allowance? "Benefits in kind" as the club says on its own FAQs. Next issue - are they declaring these benefits in kind on P11Ds? No, I don't think so either and how long has that been the case
I have a feeling that the club think they can get local permission in more relaxed places like Italy and Austria and they'll all go along with the 'volunteer' story. The issue will come if the status of the rep gets scrutinised for any reason, like a bad accident.
Next conundrum - if Reps can't lead anymore why is there a Rep's course that is a 'minimum requirement' to be a Rep, that contains "high-level instruction, avalanche safety training and leadership skills development"? They are in denial.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Pruman, The UK is locking up before deporting EU citizens who try to do "volunteer" jobs here, I would expect EU countries to reciprocate at some point.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Pruman, It's a catch-22, faustian circle of hell or whatever.
We need to maintain membership
What's the main USP we have/what do members want? Rep led skiing (especially off piste)
How do we move forward? Promise more rep led skiing.
Is it legal? Erm..........
Maybe if you start from what is the spectrum of things you CAN do then have a way of testing whether they are things members might subscribe for......
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Legally employing people in Canada or the EU or Brexit Britain is the way to provide that type of service.
Extremely Canadian in Whistler deliver something like that.
The current leadership appears to have benefitted serially from cross subsidisation.
I think that is their true "mission": not "maintain membership", but "maintain subsidy".
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| philwig wrote: |
The current leadership appears to have benefitted serially from cross subsidisation.
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Sorry I'm probably being a bit thick. Please explain who you think is subsidising whom.
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Interesting to see the latest email from the Titanic - today's gem is about the return of the reps, and the addition of a new Social Rep who gets nothing in return, has no insurance, isn't able to lead people, has no training, and yet is the official SCGB organiser for the time of their appointment.
Might be a few days or weeks before someone is injured or killed on a Social outing and their grieving relatives sue SCGB on the basic that their Social Rep encouraged the victim to ski something which was outside of their abilities? Or does the Social Rep now need to refuse to say anything for fear that they could be accused of directing the group? Is it time for a Consent Card to agree that you're not part of the group, and any suggestion that you were near someone else for much of the day is purely coincidence (or harrassment)?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It seems a massive hike in Freshtracks holidays makes them more expensive than comparable Snoworks which is daft. The price increase seems to be to pay off debts and subsidise the Reps, who I’ve just been using informed by email are Back! Key roles seem to include organising social skiing and apres drinks. I can’t imagine how I ever managed in the past.
I gather this new direction to financial ruin is what the members want? Maybe in the same way that the membership of the DUP would like the Government to repeal the laws of evolution?
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| Jehu wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
The current leadership appears to have benefitted serially from cross subsidisation.
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Sorry I'm probably being a bit thick. Please explain who you think is subsidising whom. |
I think the membership fees + proceeds from selling buildings was subsidising reps, the minority of skiers who used reps, and jobs for the boys at an overweight HQ.
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