 Poster: A snowHead
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Whatever the angle, if it's next to the piste, it will slide into the piste when it goes. So the patrol would have set it off before openning the piste. |
abc, I don't necessarily disagree with your point that off-piste next to piste is on the safer end of off-piste to ski.
But what's dangerous is offering a generalisation as advice to others that is based on, what is at best, bad assumptions and generalisations. |
In none of my posts on this subject did I offer it as "advice" to others.
I merely echoed what *I* do as some others touched on the same, and the rational behind my decision. I'm open to change my decision based on additional information. Though so far I hadn't seen anything that would require the change to MY decision.
I never suggested that's the decision others ought to adopt.
| Quote: |
| - three places where avalanches that had run out across pistes |
With the understaning not 100% of avi control being perfect, I view next to the piste is almost as safe (or as unsafe) as the piste next to it.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 5-02-12 18:58; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
| In none of my posts on this subject did I offer it as "advice" to others. |
I'm sorry, but...
| abc wrote: |
| Whatever the angle, if it's next to the piste, it will slide into the piste when it goes. So the patrol would have set it off before openning the piste. |
...is offering advice based on facts that aren't true.
There wasn't a caveat within a mile of the post you made.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Pedantica, in her initial post abc never quantified what slope angle she was happy to ski by the side of the piste. If she amends her opinion to say low angle slopes, such as blues, I would say that's a much better approach to deciding what's safe. I'd ski gentle terrain under most circumstances, regardless of whether it is beside the piste or not. But steeper terrain could be unsafe just to the side of the piste, no matter what abc says. BTW, a 40 degree slope is proper steep, steeper than many (if not all?) black pistes. |
I would ski off the side of easy red too. I don't actually measure the angle, understanably. I just look at it and 'guestimate' the angle as 'qiute safe' vs. 'questionable'.
40 degree is a fairly steep black. I would ski off it if there's piste directly below it, in the assumption it's been controlled. (Granted, not when the avi flag is flying at high)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| In none of my posts on this subject did I offer it as "advice" to others. |
I'm sorry, but...
| abc wrote: |
| Whatever the angle, if it's next to the piste, it will slide into the piste when it goes. So the patrol would have set it off before openning the piste. |
...is offering advice based on facts that aren't true.
There wasn't a caveat within a mile of the post you made. |
I'm not going to re-iterate every caveat on every single post I make on an internet forum. (besides, what caveat will suffice in this case?)
And if people want to take a single post in a public forum, without taking into consideration of the context, as a suggestion. And worse, take such "suggestion" without varifying the validitty of it, getting avi on are probably their least worry! Frankly, if an individual isn't able to follow this discussion (this being is a discussion, not a list of conflicting advices), what chance does such an individual have to sensibly access the snow stability, even if you and I can make a 100 point list of "do's and don't in off-piste skiing"?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 5-02-12 19:07; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FlyingStantoni, +1
abc, when in a hole... stop digging...
Your assumption is silly, and actually dangerous to piste users below you. The idea that patrols can manage to control all avalanche risk, or identify all potential fracture zones is naive. And this applies as much in the US as in Europe. I've seen US patrollers digging up bodies inbounds.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
FlyingStantoni, +1
abc, when in a hole... stop digging...
Your assumption is silly, and actually dangerous to piste users below you. The idea that patrols can manage to control all avalanche risk, or identify all potential fracture zones is naive. And this applies as much in the US as in Europe. I've seen US patrollers digging up bodies inbounds. |
You just confirm that piste skiing is as unsafe as next to the piste!
btw, although I knew about such incidence, I didn't have the misfortune of seeing it in person as you did. Perhaps that trama changess your risk tolerant level? Or give you the right to insult people who didn't share that same misfortune?
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| abc wrote: |
| You just confirm that piste skiing is as unsafe as next to the piste! |
Anyone know a good "hole digging" song....?
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abc, I strongly suggest asking for your money back from the avalanche course you did. You clearly learnt nothing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abc, bodies buried in an area which was on-piste, and where I was about to ski, when the avvy was started off-piste... luckily just the people who started it got buried 
Major logic fail.
Two years ago on the S6BB, a snowHead triggered a small slide cutting the corner across a long bend in a red-run. There was a clue though... it was under an explosive charge dropping cable system...!
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| abc, I strongly suggest asking for your money back from the avalanche course you did. You clearly learnt nothing. |
and the momey back from the book, the online resources, etc...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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dudes
it is very simple
with the same pitch to the piste
some side of piste can be safer than the piste
some side of piste can be avalanche prone and dangerous
if both sides arguing can not admit and see that
then they are losers
ok bye
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FlyingStantoni,
dude
respect
ok bye
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't think Rob and I disagree.
Bear in mind it is people like me, who ski a lot and live in the mountains who are frequently caught in slides.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Voice of Treason, Errr... That's what everyone but ABC was saying. She seems just not to get that...
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Poster: A snowHead
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stoat of the dead,
no dude
people are taking statements and translating them into extremes
for cheap shots and point scoring and show boating
side of piste is not 100 m away
does not mean cornices, or wind loaded
or what ever
it means the bits that are similar to the piste
just the other side of the markers
and all instructors take their students there
without avi kit
i thought I was on ignore 
ok bye
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nice try.
You were right with your previous post.
Sometimes it is safer. Sometimes it isn't.
But you don't always know which.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| I don't think Rob and I disagree. |
No, I'm sure we don't.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abc wrote: |
| If the "piste" is a strip down a face of similar grade, I'd go off the side to harvest the powder. But not into a much steeper side slope off the piste, unless I have someone with me who knows the local terrain and snow history better. |
dudes
this is basically it
no idea why people
are splitting hairs about it
ok bye
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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too many bored  's on this thread now.... stop chatting about it and find out for yourselves.... go grab some POW!
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By the way, abc,noticing you are from New York, I'm assuming that you are basing what you say on European experience? As I'm sure you know it is very difficult to find equivalents since European off-piste is like North American Out of Bounds. (I rather doubt that there is Out of Bounds to be skied off the side of US pistes.)
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| snowball wrote: |
| By the way, abc,noticing you are from New York, I'm assuming that you are basing what you say on European experience? |
Yes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoat,
| Quote: |
Your assumption is silly, and actually dangerous to piste users below you. The idea that patrols can manage to control all avalanche risk, or identify all potential fracture zones is naive. And this applies as much in the US as in Europe. I've seen US patrollers digging up bodies inbounds.
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AH, now I think you are twisting what was being suggested. See my earlier post.
1. If there is an off piste snow field hanging over a piste does the patrol
a) consider the risk of that sliding onto the piste and take actions to make it safe (e.g., blasting or closing the piste if they perceive high risk)
b) ignore it - it's off piste and they don't have to make that safe?
Clearly the answer is a). Now I have been to some places where a slope presents such a threat to pistes that it is ruled off-limits (explicitly told that you cannot ski there not just off-piste. Failing that, the ski patrol must have considered that someone would ski that snow field and that it dodnt present a major risk to the piste. Incidentally, I had this explained to me by ski instructors and guides as a factor to take into account when assessing risk.
2. Does any of that mean "patrols can manage to control all avalanche risk, or identify all potential fracture zones". Of course not. They won't always get it right. The whole thing is risk based and probablistic. There are no guarantees. None of that means that they don't try to actively manage the risk of slides being triggered onto pistes from above.
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
| Two years ago on the S6BB, a snowHead triggered a small slide cutting the corner across a long bend in a red-run. There was a clue though... it was under an explosive charge dropping cable system...! |
Confused. Surely you're saying that you would have expected it already to have been blasted?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jedster wrote: |
1. If there is an off piste snow field hanging over a piste does the patrol
a) consider the risk of that sliding onto the piste and take actions to make it safe (e.g., blasting or closing the piste if they perceive high risk)
b) ignore it - it's off piste and they don't have to make that safe? |
The crux of the difference between France and North America lays here.
In France, ski patrol control to protect against naturally-triggered slides. They don't (generally) control to make the slope itself safe for skiing. Also, just because a slope is above a piste it doesn't mean that an avalanche is (usually) likely to run out onto the piste.
This might appear to be cutting hairs, and will usually make no odds, but it is an important difference as skiing a slope stresses the snowpack more than would be caused by natural causes - hence the descriptions in the avalanche scale.
In France, you can ski anywhere, with the exceptions of between permanant avalanche fences*, but you carry the legal consequences if you cause an avalanche off-piste or on a closed run. It's not the ski patrol's liability.
In North America, the ski patrol controls to make anything "inbounds" safe for skiing. Which is why they often close "high alpine" areas for whole mornings and, sometimes, days whilst they control or wait for the avalanche risk to subside. Areas like Whistler just don't open the high alpine if the avalanche risk is 4 - they control and wait for the risk to drop to 3 before they'll consider opening.
* IIRC skiing between avalanche fences is illegal in France.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jedster, not really... ABC suggested that terrain which lies adjacent to pistes is safe because if it wasn't, and it could slide on to a piste, it would have been dealt with by patrollers. I am giving 2 examples, one in Europe and one in the US, where I have seen that it hasn't been.
FlyingStantoni, has it on the nail.
But I the end it is a futile discussion. All it does is let me know one more person I would prefer not to ski off-piste with.
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
| jedster, not really... ABC suggested that terrain which lies adjacent to pistes is safe because if it wasn't, and it could slide on to a piste, it would have been dealt with by patrollers. I am giving 2 examples, one in Europe and one in the US, where I have seen that it hasn't been. |
dude
good try but aren't you just twisting this now ?
I thought ABC was saying she was happy to ski side of piste
if it was the same pitch as the piste
'harvest the powder' by popping to the side etc
and obviously a 40 degree pitch side of piste
along side a 12 degree pitch blue is different
which might be the examples you put forward
ok bye
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You know it makes sense.
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FlyingStantoni,
dude
pretty much spot on
ok bye
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
In North America, the ski patrol controls to make anything "inbounds" safe for skiing. |
That's what I like about NA skiing, you can concentrate on enjoying yourself skiing 'off-piste' without serious risk of getting caught in a slide. Having said that, a local boarder was buried a few years ago right under the Cliff Chair at Big White. Late afternoon, warmish weather, steep slope, big early season snowfall on a dubious base. The patrol didn't close that area for whatever reason (probably because a slide there was previously unheard of) and down it came. Quite sobering at the time, but you'd have to be seriously unlucky to get caught inbounds. A chance I'm more than happy to take. But I wouldn't ski off-piste in Europe or out of bounds in NA without a local guide.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Voice of Treason wrote: |
and obviously a 40 degree pitch side of piste
along side a 12 degree pitch blue is different
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Isn't that usually known as falling off the cat track down the mountain?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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James the Last,
dude
always a good short cut 
ok bye
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
But I the end it is a futile discussion. All it does is let me know one more person I would prefer not to ski off-piste with. |
Why would I even want to ski with you in the first place?
1) You're not a guide.
2) I never skied with you inbound so don't know your ability.
If you're so careless to want to ski with someone off-piste without ever skiing with them on piste, that someone wouldn't be me!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Oh god, it's descended into rubbish insults.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lots of handbags but no popcorn smiley. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Lots of handbags but no popcorn smiley.
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meh, Indeed. But do read the rest of the thread... it is quite an interesting debate.
abc, well that's ok, then.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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f948lan, the SOPiBS is/will be as much a risk as any off piste guided skiing - fully qualified expert guides making decisions on mother nature. Would I place my life in their expertise ? Yes I would. Would I consider it 100 % risk free ? No! Do I consider it safer than assessing the risks myself ? Yes ! It's good that you're thinking about the risks and the factors relating to them (risks), we all should. Ignorance can be a killer. Read up, learn more, and ask questions of your guide and their decisions. Hopefully meet you on the bash.
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Ref OP Do you need a boot fitter if you are just going to ski for two weeks a year? They seem to fit OK and were good when I just bought them after I was measured in S&R and EB and they came up with the same size and suggested boot for nothing on top of the boot price? Or race for GB in a pair or race blanks needing plates? The answer is yes according to most posts on Snowheads so hey everybody needs to turn a dime: I would get one of each because you need a guide if he is going to take you on glaciated terrain and an instructor for off-piste and piste. Probably someone has already said this but I could not be bothered to read it.
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FAQ
