 Poster: A snowHead
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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I think there's a real gap in the market here for someone to exploit.
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I think you're wrong. If there were, someone would be doing it. Like it or not, most people holiday in pairs whether or not they're couples, smug or otherwise. |
I would modify that a bit: there ARE market gap catering to singles, or the odd one in groups. But it's a small nitch market. And it's already been filled by the few single rooms (under the staircase, in the corner of the building, etc) available.
What's not available, as the OP would wish it, is single room at correspondingly low cost.
But as others had pointed out, the cost of running these single rooms are no less than the cost of servicing a double room. So the reason for the lack of such alternative, AT LOWER COST, is the vanishing profit margin.
No profit, no offer. Simple as that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can't recall ever paying a single supplement on a ski trip. A few years ago I travelled around solo for a few weeks and always got a very nice room for a low price. In Austria I tended to stay in Pensions that had a single room. Usually the "pay off" for only paying 1/2 of the costs of a couple was that the bathroom wasn't en-suite, although frequently all the other rooms had en-suite, so I had exclusive use. Two hotels in Switzerland charged me for a single room and upgraded me to a nice double (one of them actually gave me a suite!!).
Obviously though, this was because i was able to DIY.
Maybe queen bodecia if it's your friends that won't/can't be flexible on flights, then why not suggest that you calculate the total price for the whole party and divide by the number of people. That way you don't get stung with the supplement for their refusal to travel to Manchester.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
Maybe queen bodecia if it's your friends that won't/can't be flexible on flights, then why not suggest that you calculate the total price for the whole party and divide by the number of people. That way you don't get stung with the supplement for their refusal to travel to Manchester. |
THAT sounds like a good idea 
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| maggi wrote: |
The thing is, if single rooms were reasonably priced, wouldn't most people book them?
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No.
The majority of people travel as a couple, and are generally happy to share.
Which is why the travel industry is based around twin/double rooms, and single rooms are always in a minority in just about every hotel you will find.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| maggi wrote: |
The thing is, if single rooms were reasonably priced, wouldn't most people book them?
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No.
The majority of people travel as a couple, and are generally happy to share.
Which is why the travel industry is based around twin/double rooms, and single rooms are always in a minority in just about every hotel you will find. |
No, I disagree.
People do travel in groups more than they travel solo. But a group may be odd numbered.
As for real couples, QB was right, an increasingly larger population is opting to be single. So the argument there're no market for single room is false.
However, the profit margin for single room is considerably smaller than doubles. So hoteliers aren't motivated to supply single room. And when they do so grudgingly, it's NOT at half price but considerably closer to that of doubles. This gets the travelers back to the "pairing up to save" mode, further reducing the demand for single room.
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| achilles wrote: |
| queen bodecia, It's been pointed out that you could DIY - your reply 'not suitable'. Goodness know why - many other sHs manage. It's also been pointed out that Ski Miquel do a reasonable deal - and fly from Manchester' Your reply is that some of the party might have to drive 3-4 hours - as I have to do just that sometimes I really cannot see a problem. You seem to have a fixed and impractical viewpoint, which it is hard to help. |
She hasn't asked for help, and has said several times taht she still exp[ects to sort something out.
Why people are insisting onm trying to "help" her, and mainly by making suggestions she isn't interested in, I don't understand.
I know threads drift, but I don't see much point in having a pop at somebody for not taking suggestions they weren't looking for.
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| Anniepen wrote: |
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
Maybe queen bodecia if it's your friends that won't/can't be flexible on flights, then why not suggest that you calculate the total price for the whole party and divide by the number of people. That way you don't get stung with the supplement for their refusal to travel to Manchester. |
THAT sounds like a good idea |
Agreed. When we went away with two other families to a hotel in 2005 for our first ski holiday, there were only two discounted child places available , and four children, so we split the costs between us.
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"this is not a thread for others to offer helpful suggestions, it's a thread for me to moan about travel operators".
Doesn't seem to work on snowheads.
I sympathise with everyone who said "inflexible bunch, gotta pay up". There is no God-given right to cheap ski holidays for a demanding group of people.
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slightly offtopic, but still supplement/room based - what i don't get is the 'Quad" rooms you get in north America seemingly as standard. As a couple we can go pretty much anywhere in Europe supplement free. We're heading to canada for a couple of weeks this year (with a TO) and we are going to be charged for the empty double bed that will be lurking in the room. who in their right minds wants two double beds in one room. two couples sharing? not really what you want on your hols. I guess families might want a number of beds, but surely one double two singles would suit better? Does anyone have a rational answer? 
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rogg, I guess they are now just playing the £ game. When I worked for Marriott over there they were simply double doubles - the Americans like all things big after all! It was a fixed price per room, not pp. I'm guessing the hotel would only charge by the room still, its the TO thats charging by the person to maximise capacity and £.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We paid more for our daughters double for sole use that we did for our own, we did come across Friendship Travel who use the Mark Warner chalet hotels, might book a single with them and us with Mark Warner
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Shimmy Alcott, most definitely.
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| rogg, I guess they are now just playing the £ game. When I worked for Marriott over there they were simply double doubles - the Americans like all things big after all! It was a fixed price per room, not pp. I'm guessing the hotel would only charge by the room still, its the TO thats charging by the person to maximise capacity and £. |
yup, i know it's all about making money. double double bed rooms seem to be the norm, and i know i've got to pay, the same as i know i would have to pay if i took a single occupancy of a double room. i guess what i was wondering more is who these 'standard' rooms are aimed at - why build a double double bed room?
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You know it makes sense.
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When I used to organise a big ski trip for my mates, a couple of them did fancy the States for a change. However, this was in the days of TO holidays only, and all the options had those 2 x double bed arrangements. Whilst we could make it work for a few people, in most cases it just didn't as there were couples, as well as 'just friends' who just didn't fancy sharing a bed........the couples also didn't fancy sharing their room with another couple!
I suppose it would work for a family where you could put two kids in one of the beds, but then the under-occupancy supplements kick in as the room wasn't occupied by 4 x full-fare paying guests
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rogg wrote: |
| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| rogg, I guess they are now just playing the £ game. When I worked for Marriott over there they were simply double doubles - the Americans like all things big after all! It was a fixed price per room, not pp. I'm guessing the hotel would only charge by the room still, its the TO thats charging by the person to maximise capacity and £. |
yup, i know it's all about making money. double double bed rooms seem to be the norm, and i know i've got to pay, the same as i know i would have to pay if i took a single occupancy of a double room. i guess what i was wondering more is who these 'standard' rooms are aimed at - why build a double double bed room? |
I don't think I've ever seen a single bed in N AMerica outside a hostel. All motels/hotels have at least "double" beds as standard then if you really are a couple you can have a queen or a king. So a double double is relly a twin. UK TOs like to use them to give low lead in price that's all.
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| snowymum wrote: |
To get back to Queen Bodecia's discussion, I think you are unlikely to get good value for money going with a large TO unless you snap up a late deal. Their holidays are based on 2 people sharing a room and taking their recommended flight as that is probably most profitable for them. If you are single, or a family wanting an apartment but not wanting to sleep on a sofa bed, or want to travel by train or self drive, or want to travel in school hols, the large TOs will probably come up considerably more expensive than either a smaller TO or DIY.
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Admittedly I do usually book fairly late, but I have never yet been able to match the best large TO deals with DIY (looking at same resort, same dates, similar class of hotel).
I can usually get it pretty close before adding in transfers, but unless you can do the transfer by train, those usually work out rather expensive for single travelers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| There didn't seem to be an option for a twin room, very strange. |
The concept of twin bed simply doesn't exist in the US. The "standard" one person bed is a double.
It's only strange if you come from a forign country.  It's perfectly normal to expect at the minimum a double bed in any room in the US/Canada. An American travelling to Europe for the first time are shocked by the concept of ... twin bed! Very strange indeed.
I live alone. But I have a double bed in my flat (queen size in the house). I can roll around in the bed or even sleep sideways. Neccessary? No. But why not if it doesn't cost extra?
| Quote: |
| i guess what i was wondering more is who these 'standard' rooms are aimed at |
Average American travellers.
Why the double-double room, why not if you have the space?
A room has a bed, whatever the size. It doesn't increase the cost of furnishing or servicing that room. So a family travelling with children can easily fit into these double-double rooms. (and if the family has 3 children, they would typically get an extra cot in the room, 90% of rooms are large enough to accommodate an extra cot).
Most hotel/motel in the US are build for the purpose, not converted from some old farm house as in the old country. So it's much more cost efficient to make the rooms big and put a big bed (or two) in there.
Typically, there ARE rooms that have only one bed, usually a king size bed. Those are specifically cater to couples. Still, I'd say at least 50% of hotel/motel rooms have 2 double beds.
BUT, the concept of quad room is strictly by TO's catering to UK (or europe) travellers, trying to stuff two adults in each double bed. The standard occupancy for ski trips originated from the US would simply be a double share, each person gets a double bed.
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Are these charges single 'supplements' anyway ? a double room has a price, if you want to book a room for yourself instead of share it with another person then you have to pay that price. Infact the price for any double room that is sold for single occupancy for less that the full double occupancy rate (excluding food etc) is actually a discount not a supplement.
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alex_heney, you usually travel as a single (IIRC) and not as part of a group though, and I am sure that if you had an element of shared transfer costs etc as part of a group (like QB) that you would be able to arrange an economical DIY trip because you are quite flexible with your arrangements
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rayscoops, so you're one of these people that think single people are the scourge of society and should pay double for everything? We already lose out in housing and grocery shopping.
In fairness there would be no need to impinge on the double rooms for cosy couples if there were more single rooms out there.
Incidentally, I priced up the shared transfer costs, just to cover all bases of course. Minibus taxi for 8 people and skis/luggage to/from Turin/Courmayeur worked out at about €60 per head each way. So not extortionate but still not close to TO costs. The real issue with DIY is that there are no scheduled flights between convenient airports. The only scheduled flights from the UK to Turin are from Gatwick and Stanstead for example.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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queen bodecia, I think you are looking at this the wrong way, there is a price for travelling as a single and couples get their price for a discount due to ecomomies of scale of doubling up.
Btw I am single(ish), own my own houses and go shopping, I have been a single traveller for maybe 50% of my boarding trips (I have flexibility and can jump on a plane at a days notice when there is a big dump of snow somehwere) and like my own room if travelling with some mates, but I do not expect to have my single occupancy room subsidised by those who use a double/twin room in the way it is intended - in fact I do not expect to have anything subsidised because I am single. I have never been charged a silly single supplement because I decide to stay in places that do not charge such supplements (or they are willing to fill a double room at late notice for the price of a single) and I avoid TOs for that very reason. I do not think I can match a TO for its headline 'sharing' price, but I can better what they offer when it comes to wanting a room for myself.
I have been meaning to go to Serre Chev for about 5 years now but it is just not convenient for me so I have never managed it. On the whole I pick my destination for skiing where there are scheduled flights between convenient airports and for this reason I have never flown to Italy to go boarding because it is not convenient, the bus transfers did not fit with the flight arrivals etc.
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We already lose out in housing and grocery shopping. |
Er, what? Houses and food cost whatever the market rate is at the time, whether you're single or not. It's entirely up to you whether or not you choose to split the cost with someone else on whatever basis you like (lodger, house-share, sexual relationship, live with your mum, whatever). Why pick on housing and food rather than motorbikes or fleecy jumpers?
You could get rid of that absolutely humungous chip you have on your shoulder there. Holiday accommodation is built with multi-occupancy rooms because the overwhelming majority of holidaymakers travel in pairs, one way or another (couples, mates, relatives etc etc) and the economics of the whole business are based on that fact. What you're asking for in effect is a discount because you refuse to share - that's your choice, but why should the accommodation provider subsidise it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Queen Bodecia - surely Turin is not the only airport within reach of serre chevalier - what about Grenoble Nice or Marseille? Do any of these airports have coaches to Serre Chevalier?
Wouldn't it be cheaper to hire 2 cars for a party of 8 than to take a taxi?
If you are single without children and are not a teacher you can ski on the cheapest week of the season and your holiday cost will be substantially cheaper whether you share a room or not. So I don't really follow the reasoning that it is more expensive to ski as a single person? Unless you are only comparing yourself to DINKY couples.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowymum, Grenoble has a bus service which runs from the airport to the bus station (collocated with the bus station). Buses run from there to Les Deux Alpes and Alpe D'Huez - and, I think, Briancon. The catch is that there can be quite a wait at the bus station. Hiring a car is certainly possible - and I have been in a party that did that. It opens up possibilities of skiing at Montgenevre, La Grave and Alpe D'Huez - as well as Serre Chevalier. Well worth considering.
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rayscoops, just trying to find a holiday for myself and my ski buddies. Two singles, three couples. Really no need for everyone to give me a hard time about it. I was just lamenting the huge costs of sole occupancy supplements. I totally understand why they do it, but it's a pain in the wallet for people like me. I can't go at the last minute like you, we have 8 people to organise, 2 single rooms to find and reserve and time off work to book.
Lizzard, I don't believe I have a chip on my shoulder, but surely you recognise that being single has financial penalties. I'm not moaning, I'm happy being single. I just want more single rooms in hotels. I realise the economies, but my point is this, single rooms always get booked up, they're never empty. So a hotel might increase its profits by having more single rooms that are always taken rather than double rooms that might be vacant now and again. Just a thought. Not all holidaymakers travel in pairs or families. Some of us don't have the choice.
snowymum, I think Grenoble is possible but it's a treacherous road route. Again, there are no scheduled flights from anywhere north of Birmingham. We usually travel mid-March, it's a special week for us. But I daresay the week could change if it was the only limiting factor.
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You know it makes sense.
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queen bodecia, the road is kept open except in really difficult weather or high avalanche risk. It is not completely closed for long, or that often. Ski Miquel use Grenoble for their flights, as do several other tour operators. French holidays finish on the 10th March next year.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hells Bells, we were looking at week commencing 4th March since the charter flights from Doncaster and Newcastle finish that week so we couldn't go the following week. However, you're quite right, it's a peak week and I expect that is the main reason the hotel have imposed such a high supplement. I'm looking for something else now. Maybe we will be able to try Serre Che in 2013 if the Grand Hotel has been refurbished and reopened by then.
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Poster: A snowHead
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queen bodecia, you give the impression that you think nobody else has your problems, yet you really don't know other peoples' circumstances. For reasons I don't wish to publish on the forum I too often have to travel as a single, and things have got to the stage where I have to plan a year or so in advance. It's not something I want too make a point of for myself - I am sure there are loads of snowheads who also have problems they simply have to work around. The reason I have said it is to point out that you are not a unique hard case. And I do not think the solo supplements are 'crazy'. They are perfectly understandable, and just another problem in life to be coped with.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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queen bodecia, if you want to visit France, and you want (naturally) to keep costs reasonable, then you really do have to avoid their peak holiday weeks. If that week is completely inflexible I'd say go somewhere else.
Single people don't "lose out" on housing unless they want a sizeable place to themselves. Yes, it's expensive to live in a house bigger than you need, as I know, living in a three storey town house with just the two of us. Our answer was to convert a room to a "studio" and rent it out to a single person - whose rent pays for our place in the Alps, as it happens. Otherwise, with kids flown the nest, we'd probably have downsized to a two, or at the most, three bedroom place.
Many single people who don't want to spend too much, and can't find a one-bedroom flat or similar in the right location, will share with friends. I quite understand that you don't want to share with friends, and you don't want to live in a one-bed flat. That's fine, but you really can't reasonably feel hard done by. You are being "penalised" by your determination to have a family-sized place to yourself and your unwillingness to share it, not by being "single".
Hotels are in a tightly costed and competitive industry. If it was more profitable for them to have more single rooms, why wouldn't they?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't believe I have a chip on my shoulder
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Why the inevitable description of couples as 'smug' or 'cosy' then? Most of us are neither.
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being single has financial penalties
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I'm more inclined to say that sharing has financial advantages. It also has its penalties (like subbing someone who doesn't look as if he'll be earning again before next year) - swings and roundabouts there.
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Grenoble is possible but it's a treacherous road route
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Oh gerroff. It's a route nationale, there's nothing wrong with it.
You don't like paying extra but you insist on using TOs, when you know very well you're pretty much guaranteed to be charged more of a supplement than you would were you to travel any other way. And then you complain about it! Seems like strange behaviour to me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| lightningdan wrote: |
queen bodecia,
The rate for solo occupancy is 45% of the headline rate.
So, for the week it's +£170
for PSB11-part1 it's +£95
and for PSB11-Part2 +£110
Shocking!! |
The point about twins subsidising solos is a valid one.
In the case of the PSB, I wanted to offer a solo option for those who really needed it but there are a finite number of beds in the hotel, all of whose rooms are twins, demand looks strong and so each solo effectively wastes a bed preventing someone else from coming. Also, the price generally, has been pushed as low as possible while taking into account that we need to provided buses to get people back and forth from Geneva. Now, were everyone to book a solo room, the cost of the bus would be shared between half as many people, hence doubling it per person. In fact, at the above prices, each solo is being slightly subsidised which is why we had to limit the number we offered. Nevertheless, those places went within a couple of days  I guess they can't have been too extortionate then  Any more solos and the overall price for everyone else would have had to be higher.
In the bigger picture, the space a single room occupies is generally much more than half that of a twin. If there are en suite facilities, you could well be taking a good 80% of the space that a twin/double would. It takes just about as long to clean a single room as it does a twin or, for that matter, to check in a solo compared to a couple. The occupants of a room tend to settle their room-bill at once too.
All in all, as a solo, you represent a cost to the hotel in time and resources of probably 80% of that of a couple. This may be skewed slightly by the quality/cost of the food involved.
queen bodecia, with snowHeads at your disposal, you really don't need to travel solo as there are lots of nice girls and boys who would, I'm sure, be prepared to share a room with you. Indeed, you say you've another solo in your group so you're not exactly being forced into the single supplement. You are simply making the choice to have more of the hotel's resources allocated to you personally and it's perfectly reasonable that those resources come with an additional cost.
I recall the chairman of Samsung, controversially having pistes reserved solely for his use in Courchevel 'for security reasons' - naturally there was a solo supplement for this service which I reckon will make your eyes water
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, not at all. The point of my thread was for people to post their worst quoted sole use supplements. I think alex_heney is winning hands down. Where the cost of the supplement is more than the cost of the double room between two people surely that is punitively unfair. Although high, what I have been quoted is not quite that much. You have hit the nail on the head, there is a high demand for single rooms. I just think accommodation providers could address this. Yes single rooms take up more than half the floor space and facilities of a double room, but they are far more likely to be occupied every week of the season, so might financially make sense. If I ever come into some unexpected money maybe I should buy a hotel in a ski resort and convert it to all single rooms and see if it works!
pam w, I'd have happily bought a small two-bedroomed house and had more disposable income. It was just that I needed a garage too which seemed to move me up into the next size housing bracket. It's not a financial penalty as such since I bought the house and hopefully will one day have a saleable asset. It's more of a penalty with renting, i.e. dead money on a house that's bigger than I need. I did at one point rent a one bedroomed flat and a separate garage a few streets away but it wasn't very nice. Anyway, slight thread drift...
admin, totally understand the argument and the sole use pricing for the bashes seems perfectly fair to me. Some of them are totally unfair, that's my only point. If my ski buddies decide to carry on without me next season, then I might find myself on one of your bashes! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm not sure that the all of the rooms would be occupied as often as you think. Solo travellers are not commonly known for travelling at peak times when families are on holiday.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
rayscoops, so you're one of these people that think single people are the scourge of society and should pay double for everything? We already lose out in housing and grocery shopping.
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How does a single person lose out in grocery shopping? If you're talking about scale discounts make more and freeze it or whatver.
Re housing the only real unfairness I can see is in council tax where IIRC a single person only gets a 25% discount compared to potentially a whole family including adult kids who consume mch more in local services.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| rayscoops, so you're one of these people that think single people are the scourge of society |
Victim status again. It's rather tiresome. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman, I didn't ask everyone to give me a hard time. All this paff about how I have to DIY. That's what I call tiresome. Haven't you got some laundry you should be doing?
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TOs lose the opportunity to sell another flight and transfer as well as their other services if they put a single person in a double room so it makes good sense to charge single supplements which more than cover the room.
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FAQ
All our DIY trips over in North America, and not once charged extra for just tweo people in a double room. They offer you either a king or double queen beds, both the same rate per room. Its just the TO recouping the cheap flight charges 