 Poster: A snowHead
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Three pages in and the OP still hasn't tried to blame God, any other deity or even the weather monkey(s).
Seriously, I'm telling you that the Courts would be with you on suing God / A N Other deity of your choice. It clearly wasn't your fault that the snow was crap, or for not checking the webcams, the snow reports, google or for not asking the weather monkey.
And you wouldn't be first to sue God either, though finding the address for serving papers on her/him could be interesting. If you need a lawyer, do let me know, I'll be happy to oblige 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Lou wrote: |
madskier, we were there last week too. Cr@p week for snow but it was quite clear from late March that things weren't going to be improving. Why did we go? Because we booked yonks ago. Wouldn't have considered a last minute holiday.
If you had done some/any homework you would have perhaps declined the first lift pass offered and checked yourself. The resort staff were quite clear that it was better to buy passes daily as the prices were changing. (IMV the passes were not reduced enough though. Several pistes were marked as open but would have been more use to grazing cattle than snowsports)
Someone with 48yrs experience booking a holiday based on snow depths on a website? Come on  |
Not with 48 years of booking holidays, just 25 years (family and other organised trips before that, so not my choice/decision as such).
However unlikely it sounds, I never had a problem with snow conditions when relaying on website (and weather reports on TV and newspapers before internet), so I made a mistake relaying on it this time. Lesson learned.
I was not expected miracles, but I booked Val, Tignes and Courcheval late in the season many times before with snow showing 60 cm bottom and 100+ top and head great, if soft skiing.
What I can not stand are people on this forum defending SCGB view of snow conditions and TOs approach when other people claim that that if I had checked other sources, like this website, it would have been obvious that conditions are poor at the time of my booking.
This 2 views can not be both correct. It is the one or the other.
I already explained what line SkiBeat could have taken re ski pass sales on the bus to the resort, if they were honest about the snow conditions. They have choosen to mislead people re the snow situation.
I am amazed by people claiming that punters should just accept it as part of the ski holiday experience.
Ski Beat still had this on its website for 16 April last week (it is still listed now)
Les Arcs Chalet Blanchot Was £659 Now £349 Save £310 Last 2 rooms
No problem with holidays in the Alps at this price, but skiing holidays it will not be
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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madskier, Sorry you had a bad holiday. You are right. Someone must be to blame. Something must be done about how unreliable the weather is. Everything is to blame except you. It couldn't possible be that rubbish end to the season people have been discussing for weeks, combined with your inability to look for further information despite booking at short notice, and sheer bad luck... or could it?
People have quite clearly explained to you where the SCGB get their figures - and how you have to read the reports. They have pointed out the existence of these new fangled web cams, and just what a weird end to the season it has been. But you appear to have joined snowHeads just to have a whinge. Welcome. You'll fit right in. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| davidof wrote: |
| madskier wrote: |
If you claim that within 6 days resort went from effected by weather, but 60-70% runs skiable to 3-6 good runs and another six so, so, then I would need some evidence to believe that. |
Sorry your holiday got wiped out by freak weather. Why the rep on the bus told you otherwise I don't know, maybe you need to ask SkiBeat?
| Quote: |
| If start of April was so bad, then why sell holidays on assumption that it will somehow stop deteriorating? I do not know what the long term weather forecast was but surely TOs have access to these? |
I don't know the answer to that as I'm not in the ski business, but to make money I guess. The long term forecasts are pretty crap though. |
Thanks for the diagrams, but if you look just at the diagram of snow coverage you can see that conditions in April went back to what they were in February i.e. over 100 cms at the top.
I doubt skiing in Les Arc then was as bad as last week.
My main point is that for people who do not spent time, unwisely, on ski forums, there was not much info on non-member snow overviews/reports on SCGB website which said that skiing conditions are very poor this year, so watch out.
The info was not that different from other "poor" years when high resorts were still perfectly skiable.
I accept now that SCGB is not an "honest (snow) broker" anymore because of commercial interests and links with the industry and punters needs are better served by forums like this.
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madskier, You should bite the bullet, buy new boots now.
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madskier, looking at the twice weekly publicly accessible SCGB country overview snow reports throughout the season, I also got the impression that they were disingenuously positive to the point of being wilfully misleading. As an ex-member and someone who had considered rejoining I found that disappointing and poor. However I don't know if maybe their member-only rep reports were more accurate.
S'far as your TO was concerned, I think it's reasonable for you to have expected accurate information and advice re: the amount of skiing just as you would expect accurate information about their product. However by your admission you don't like slush and maybe if you were happier to ski it, the conditions whilst doubtless poor could reasonably have been regarded as a degree more acceptable? That said if the skiing was as limited as you portray a much bigger discount off the pass ought to have been applied by the lift operator to reflect any dramatic deterioration in conditions.
I think you have learnt a lesson about the reliability (or lack of) of snow reports from those who have a vested interest though!
BTW welcome to snowHeads I'm afraid it can be like this sometimes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm somewhat surprised at the reaction of snowheads to the OP. It seems the concensus is he should spend a whole lot more energy into researching the snow quantity before making decision. And he and he alone should bear responsibility for falling prey to the mis-information from both TO and SCGB.
Even though I know snowhead is a forum full of snow addicts. It still surprises me that the OP was basically ridicude for being a non-addit! His only fault was not spending hours and hours reading snowheads.com before making a booking!
145cm of snow is a lot of snow. For it to disappear in a week is quite remarkable. What's not so remarkable is resorts & TO are less than truthful about it. And the snowheads concensus is that kind of behavior is perfectly ok and the OP "had nothing to complain about"!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| madskier wrote: |
I accept now that SCGB is not an "honest (snow) broker" anymore because of commercial interests and links with the industry and punters needs are better served by forums like this. |
You're clearly a bit thick because it's already been explained to you that the two figures you use (stupidly) to denote whether conditions are good enough are actually supplied by the resort and passed on in good faith. Also, you have failed to provide proof that the information you relied on when deciding to book was misleading at the time of publication. But the thing that makes you look particularly stupid is the fact that you take up a position and ignore all factual information that runs contrary.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Why oh why did I waste 20 mins of my life reading this thread?
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PJSKi - which TO or ski website do you work for?
I remember you vigorously defending Ski Beat on the 23 page thread started by Pandora last year.
It would be good to hear from SCGB whether their stats have been accurate and from Ski Beat as to whether they exaggerated the amount of snow to sell holidays/lift passes but doubt we will hear from either.
From what I've seen on Snow Heads if anyone is ever unhappy over any aspect of their holiday and blames the TO there are a number of Snow Heads who will say the TO is blameless irrespective of what has happened.
It does seem amazing that Madskier had so little idea of the likely conditions but if you are going somewhere that is normally fairly snow sure like Les Arcs it would be quite a surprise to find grass covered pistes.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER, yup he was poorly advised by TO rep but if he had just taken a little time once he had the "Oh I know, let's to Les Arcs" moment and done basic research. If I was going to a restaurant, I would have a look at the board outside before going in  |
Well, if you count looking at the snow reports online as "looking at the menu before going in", then he did, didn't he?
I do think there's a lot of internet bravado going on here, the OP asked a reasonable question and has been accused several times of trolling. Just because you once fell victim to a troll, doesn't mean you should accuse someone of trolling at any likely opportunity.
I too would have been mightily p'd off, but I no longer buy lift passes on the coach if I'm at all unsure of either conditions or how the ski co will rip me off with exchange rates and so on
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| madskier wrote: |
Thanks for the diagrams, but if you look just at the diagram of snow coverage you can see that conditions in April went back to what they were in February i.e. over 100 cms at the top.
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the problem is, unlike February they couldn't make any snow and the situation lower down was already worse than in February. The situation at 3000m is what it should have been like at Arc 1600. 45cm of snow at resort level isn't a lot for French conditions. Barely skiable, I would be expecting bare patches, stones on the runs etc.
Do you remember the detail of the Ski Club snow report. They normally say stuff like "better skiing higher up" - which is code for: the resort is bare grass with a miserable strip of ice to ensure a return. I'm sure SCGB watchers could give us other examples. As someone above said, they are sponsored by the Tourist Office (TO) and so have to be careful about how they describe conditions. I doubt the general skiing public are aware of this so understand you not knowing this. That said the lift companies I've phoned this year have all been very clear about the conditions. My father in law goes to l'Alpe d'Huez regularly and the TO was clear about the conditions when he phoned. The problem in your case seems to be the English Connection.
Your comments about information are justified. Unlike 2007 where the press covered the poor conditions extensively there seems to have been a news blackout this year. On French TV I never heard a mention of poor conditions. Some parisien friends were very shocked to see a piece about powder skiing in Megeve on the TF1 channel only to arrive in February to hard pistes and bare hillsides.
I just checked the Snowheads 2010/2011 weather outlook thread (TWOT 2011 for short) but even with 20/20 hindsight it was difficult to tell what it would do, even over an area as wide as the Northern French Alps. The problem with TWOT is that it flits all over the place geographically and then there is huge excitement 2 weeks out about the "big dump" finally coming which always fizzles to nothing... but the GFS does this all the time with the long range outlooks. I doubt the TO had any better idea about the start of April either. Oh there is TWOT2012 if you want to know what the snow will be like in les Arcs next April. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| nbt wrote: |
| ... but I no longer buy lift passes on the coach if I'm at all unsure of either conditions or how the ski co will rip me off with exchange rates and so on |
That's the key point for me, it's just common sense especially at the beginning and end of the season. Fair enough to have a bit of a rant about the poor snow conditions, but to lay blame on lift companies or tour operators for decisions you've taken which turn out to be ill-judged seems to me to be missing the point.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, you may have misinterpreted slightly. If I read correctly, the OP asked a reasonable question of the rep and was enthusiastically sold the liftpass based on loads of skiing still being available. For me, that's mis-selling, but whether it would stand up in court is another matter. I suspect it's a case of an overeager rep trying to meet sales targets rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| nbt wrote: |
| rob@rar, you may have misinterpreted slightly. If I read correctly, the OP asked a reasonable question of the rep and was enthusiastically sold the liftpass based on loads of skiing still being available. For me, that's mis-selling, but whether it would stand up in court is another matter. I suspect it's a case of an overeager rep trying to meet sales targets rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive |
and don't forget your average ski rep probably only gets out onto the snow 1 day a week if he's lucky, that is if he isn't too shagged from drinking.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| nbt wrote: |
| rob@rar, you may have misinterpreted slightly. If I read correctly, the OP asked a reasonable question of the rep and was enthusiastically sold the liftpass based on loads of skiing still being available. For me, that's mis-selling, but whether it would stand up in court is another matter. I suspect it's a case of an overeager rep trying to meet sales targets rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive |
An understandable mistake if you're a beginner. Surprising if you have extensive experience of skiing. Just five minutes internet search before booking or before travelling would have indicated conditions were unusually poor (check the Les Arcs webcams today, for example) and perhaps the OP would then have taken a different decision when the TO did the usual sales pitch on the coach. Isn't that something that anyone with a vague idea of skiing would do when skiing in April?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, Or too drunk for shagging.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| nbt wrote: |
| rob@rar, you may have misinterpreted slightly. If I read correctly, the OP asked a reasonable question of the rep and was enthusiastically sold the liftpass based on loads of skiing still being available. For me, that's mis-selling, but whether it would stand up in court is another matter. I suspect it's a case of an overeager rep trying to meet sales targets rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive |
An understandable mistake if you're a beginner. Surprising if you have extensive experience of skiing. Just five minutes internet search before booking or before travelling would have indicated conditions were unusually poor (check the Les Arcs webcams today, for example) and perhaps the OP would then have taken a different decision when the TO did the usual sales pitch on the coach. Isn't that something that anyone with a vague idea of skiing would do when skiing in April? |
Spot on,
1) look at the calendar, look at the webcams - don't buy anything off a chap on the coach who might have a vested interest... be it a pub-crawl-ticket or a ski-pass.
2) Learn that the SCGB clearly passes on resort supplied info for depths of snow and that you have to read the text of the rep's individual report for the real stuff. Because it is a small organisation who cannot send a bloke with a measuring stick in every single resort in the world.
Forgivable errors in someone new to skiing. He/she isn't . I'm with Lizzard here. 
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abc, nbt, exactly.
The guy's guilty of maybe being a bit naive, despite his proclaimed experience, and quite possibly mislead too. As an "outsider" he's asked what would be considered by many as a reasonable enough question, but has attracted the kind of response, almost predictably from some, worthy of other "expert" forums.
He does raise a valid point though. Of the many millions who ski every year, what percentage regularly use this forum? Not enough, I'd aver, to declare him being an idiot for not checking here first.................
Yes, so the guy should have done more research. Not a good enough reason to chew him up and spit him out, IMO.
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nbt, The issue here is perhaps he has come here and joined expressly to whinge about this?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| I agree with the OP, why not trust the people in resort working for the company who run a business doing this? |
Because 49 years experience isn't enough to create the faintest whiff of suspicion that reps may occasionally blag it a bit when there's commission up for grabs?
I remain mystified by the decision to go skiing in what at best would be spring-like conditions then complain that his girlfriend was induced into injuring herself because she had to ski because she'd bought a lift pass. This seems to be the only complaint of substance (even allowing for the logical flaws) and is what happens to all skiers unless we are very lucky - sooner or later we get hurt and regret taking that last run or skiing in conditions beyond our ability.
But just to be balanced there is a valid question as to why European resorts need to operate on a "no refunds" model - is it just becuse the traditional profile of the European skier is still the 6 day holiday and they don't feel they need to be competive or differentiate, becuase for everyone that swears off their resort for good there are flocks of new sheep to replace them the following season?
I've noticed that N American resorts can be aggressively competitive with pass pricing/snow guarantees. It's an artifact of the business model where in N America the lift pass is the lead in to flog you lots of other stuff, in Europe it can be the only direct revenue stream for the Ski Co so they grasp onto it jealously.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 19-04-11 9:50; edited 1 time in total
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Also: 49 years experience, and doesn't know that "Les Arc" is plural, despite actually being there last week.
madskier, you're not the sharpest peanut in the turd are you mate.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| BCjohnny wrote: |
| Not a good enough reason to chew him up and spit him out, IMO. |
He joined the forum specifically to have a bit of a rant and to ask a question about what rights he had in trying to get redress. A number of people have responded. He might not like some of the answers, but I hardly think that he's been chewed up and spat out.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| fatbob wrote: |
But just to be balanced there is a valid question as to why European resorts need to operate on a "no refunds" model
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In France the major resorts are pretty much a monopoly so they don't have to try harder.
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You know it makes sense.
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| madskier wrote: |
| I am not sure whether anyone would win court case against customer who paid in good faith for "skiing" holiday and seller concelled his knowledge about snow conditions etc. |
I've had a quick look at the Ts and Cs of my recent Ski Total holiday. They make no reference to a "skiing" holiday, merely "holiday". You book a room in a chalet/hotel in a resort.
| madskier wrote: |
So those who booked early are disadvantaged here, unfortunately.
Your comment: "Holiday operators don't want customers like you." is too judgemental. You know too little about me, sorry. |
No holiday operator wants customers who will decide not to go to the airport and leave them with empty and unpaid for bedrooms. I don't need to know any more than that about you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Madskier wrote:
| Quote: |
As for my girlfriend, she feels that her injury is partially due to deciding to ski (after paying ski pass money) when not being able to claim money back for unused ski pass.
Whether skiing if unhappy with conditions because you paid your money is sensible is another matter.
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Exactly. You're surely not trying to imply that you were both forced to ski just because you couldn't get a refund are you?
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Poster: A snowHead
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the daily rate for a 6 day pass usually represents only a small saving over getting passes day by day. It's also possible to buy passes for a few hours at a time. There is a huge range passes available these days and they can often be renewed/recharged on line without getting out of bed (assuming your accommodation has WIFI ).
It's foolish to buy a 6 day pass if you're not sure you're going to want to ski for 6 days. Many skiers will decide not to go out if conditions are bad, whether because of ice/slush, poor visibility, heavy rain or snow, etc etc. Maybe people will go for more "a la carte" pass purchasing, now it's been made so much easier. Though when you see the humungeous queues at lift pass offices on busy Sunday mornings in the season, you do wonder why people continue to punish themselves that way, with all the different options which have been made available.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, Indeed and another interesting feature of the N American model is that many natives, even locals, will look at you as if you're insane if you suggest that you'll want to ski every day of a one or 2 week holiday. Even allowing for storm days when skiing may not be practical there is an expectation that it's a highly physical activity and a rest day is sensible. Hence multi day passes are sold as 4 from 6 or 5 from 7 etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think I've missed most of the heat of the discussion. But like Lou, Boris and Madskier I was also in Les Arcs last week.
I think the problem with commenting on the conditions as not being skiable is that it can be a very personal opinion. I certainly enjoyed my weeks skiing, I found the conditions quite challenging, and at times a bit of an adventure!! One minute skiing on ice, then through mounds of slush, dodging the odd stone/rock, then turning a corner to find that there's only a 1 metre strip of snow to get through to a better patch. We asked our 9yo to mark out of 10 his day (long running in joke), even the day where he landed on his face, smashed a pair of goggles and gave himself a black eye at the end of the day was an 8/10! If you ask the OH she'd probably have a different opinion.
There were thousands of other people who also seemed to enjoy their skiing, by the look on their faces. Yes sit was disappointing to see all those lovely wide looking "pistes" back to the towns as grass, yes it was disappointing that the only reasonable skiing was in a compact area which as a result got quite busy. Although the proportion of pretty ladies skiing in vest tops made up for it being busy to a degree (  did I write that on a public forum?)
April skiing is a risk, we booked our trip in Feb, chalet, flights, and lift passes. We do it this way out of convenience, I'll let some one else queue for a 6 day pass and bring it to me! It's a risk! (we did actually ask about upgrading from discovery to full area on our transfer coach, and was advised that as the link to the Vanoise was a bit ropey not to bother). Even though we paid for our lift pass in advance we were told (on the coach) that we can apply for a partial refund as the lift pass offer had become 6 days for the price of 5.
It does seem that conditions changed dramatically as Davidof mentioned, I was sat at the airport on Saturday morning reading out Snowcrazy's latest update to the OH and quite frankly expected the conditions to be a lot worse than they were.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I must also add that due to it all being fields and not snowy I had a fantastic run one evening around 1800, over to 1600 along a trail and back to 1800 on the road. Every cloud.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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hammerite, I even got to go nearer the clouds on my lift pass
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| madskier wrote: |
| I am not sure whether anyone would win court case against customer who paid in good faith for "skiing" holiday and seller concelled his knowledge about snow conditions etc. |
I've had a quick look at the Ts and Cs of my recent Ski Total holiday. They make no reference to a "skiing" holiday, merely "holiday". You book a room in a chalet/hotel in a resort.
| madskier wrote: |
So those who booked early are disadvantaged here, unfortunately.
Your comment: "Holiday operators don't want customers like you." is too judgemental. You know too little about me, sorry. |
No holiday operator wants customers who will decide not to go to the airport and leave them with empty and unpaid for bedrooms. I don't need to know any more than that about you. |
It might be the case for your operator, but if you google for SkiBeat, you can see:
Ski Beat - French Alps Ski Chalet Holidays.
It does not say "Chalet Holidays in the Alps".
I accept your point about holiday operator, but it should be two way traffic if you question my integrity for some reason. I mean that conditions of the SKIING holiday should have been explained at the outset.
If customer books and then wants to cancel then I agree with your comment, but not if he is deceived into buying a pup.
I would just about accept argument about holidays itself, but "being econimical with the truth" in order to persuade people to buy weekly area passes is wrong.
btw. I checked "Pandora" thread and the guy described there was the chap selling the weekly ski passes, unless 2 different people happen to have the same name.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| madskier wrote: |
| I am not sure whether anyone would win court case against customer who paid in good faith for "skiing" holiday and seller concelled his knowledge about snow conditions etc. |
I've had a quick look at the Ts and Cs of my recent Ski Total holiday. They make no reference to a "skiing" holiday, merely "holiday". You book a room in a chalet/hotel in a resort.
| madskier wrote: |
So those who booked early are disadvantaged here, unfortunately.
Your comment: "Holiday operators don't want customers like you." is too judgemental. You know too little about me, sorry. |
No holiday operator wants customers who will decide not to go to the airport and leave them with empty and unpaid for bedrooms. I don't need to know any more than that about you. |
Well, I just heard from people in Europe who go skiing to Italy and Austria by organising apartments in advance and driving to resort (I go occasionally, but just paid my share and never queried the exact terms and conditions).
Many of them go on 5-6 ski trips a year including ski clubs training camps etc, so they are not some newbies with no clue.
They usually pay deposit of 20-30% and settle on departure. They never had to cancel as such. When they were no viable skiing conditions, they always managed o negotiate deal when they could come some other time.
However no apartment owner ever demanded full payment on rubbish week and never even threatened loss of deposit if they fail to turn up.
Everyone understands you are going skiing and not to admire grassy slopes.
It looks that idea that TOs s***t you and you just say go deeper, must be some English public school game
You might enjoy it and defend it, but others see it differently...
btw going buy prices we pay for apartments in decent resorts (£100-120/person/week), I sort of agree with those on the forum, who think going via TOs is a loosing proposition...
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admin I know you are in VT and I know you are there for at least another 10 days but can we please have a Snowheads Gold section on your return
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
Oh, sorry 