 Poster: A snowHead
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roga, fatbob, +1. Reason enough for me to download if possible.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| roga wrote: |
| Nothing scares me more than skiing down a busy green or blue home run at the end of the day! |
Solution: stay on hill. Watch all the people who are desperate to get down enjoy their [insert home run piste name] traffic jam. Have a drink, a coffee, one last run up that funny drag on the left.
Proceed down now-empty hill. Simples.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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zammo,
Or go through the trees / moguls on the edge / ice down the middle that everybody else is avoiding 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
stay on hill. Watch all the people who are desperate to get down enjoy their [insert home run piste name] traffic jam. Have a drink, a coffee, one last run up that funny drag on the left.
Proceed down now-empty hill. Simples.
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that's not always allowed - in French resorts, IME, restaurants close the same time as the main uplift and piste patrollers make sure everyone is down the hill. It might still be worth waiting till the last minute to let the main rush go (or heading down a bit earlier, indeed) but no sitting round getting pissed then hooning down the hill in the semi-conscious semi-dark. In our resort, the black run down to the area we stay is closed earlier, when the lift up closes, and the blue run down is closed except for people staying at the bottom - and you'd be a fool to ski down a closed black run at the end of the day.
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| rambotion wrote: |
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Also if someone is genuinely carving clean arc-to-arc turns, they are likely to be good enough to be in control at a good speed.
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They're going to have enough skill anyway to dump their speed really pretty quickly as soon as it becomes necessary |
if someone is (real)carving, they generally are not going "as fast as they can" anyhow, and they wont be concentrating 100% on their skiing(what they want their ski to do) that they will see almost all dangerous situations before its too late
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| czl wrote: |
| rambotion wrote: |
| Quote: |
Also if someone is genuinely carving clean arc-to-arc turns, they are likely to be good enough to be in control at a good speed.
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They're going to have enough skill anyway to dump their speed really pretty quickly as soon as it becomes necessary |
if someone is (real)carving, they generally are not going "as fast as they can" anyhow, and they wont be concentrating 100% on their skiing(what they want their ski to do) that they will see almost all dangerous situations before its too late |
Spot on and unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who boast/think they are carving when in reality all they are doing is going very fast whilst railing their skis - in those circumstances they will almost certainly not have the skills to kill their speed when the situation necessitates it and by that I mean within a very few metres. IMHO it's not sensible to go anywhere near optimal velocity on any piste that has more than a very few people on it (preferably none frankly) and in any area that is not clear and relatively wide and where there is not a clear visible route ahead. In busier areas a skillful skier will be able to use a blend of edge, pressure and rotation/rotary in their movements/turn in order to vary their speed and ski safely and they'll enjoy it. Of course for the less skillful speed freak it's the speed alone that's the buzz rather than any skill!
The problem is that being taken out, often from the side or from behind, is something that happens completely out of the blue and is almost impossible to predict or to guard against. In fact I witnessed this happening to a highly skillful instructor colleague (not unknown in these parts) last season when he was taken out from behind by a speeding middle aged bloke shooting down a wide open piste that wasn't packed but had enough people on it to make anyone with any sense be wary. The culprit was skiing with his mates and taking no account of what anyone around him was doing, apart from his friends I guess. I'd actually stopped at the side of the piste a few moments earlier after having been cut up by one too many speed demons and saw the whole incident. Luckily there were no serious injuries but it was a plain case of too much speed and far too little awareness, let alone skill. In fact I'd say a total lack of basic awareness was the major issue although of course that goes hand in hand with the lack of skill!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Luckily there were no serious injuries but it was a plain case of too much speed and far too little awareness, let alone skill. In fact I'd say a total lack of basic awareness was the major issue although of course that goes hand in hand with the lack of skill!
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roga, was the culprit made thoroughly aware of his idiocy?
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pam w, indeed he was!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| roga wrote: |
| czl wrote: |
if someone is (real)carving, they generally are not going "as fast as they can" anyhow, and they wont be concentrating 100% on their skiing(what they want their ski to do) that they will see almost all dangerous situations before its too late |
Spot on and unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who boast/think they are carving when in reality all they are doing is going very fast whilst railing their skis - in those circumstances they will almost certainly not have the skills to kill their speed when the situation necessitates it and by that I mean within a very few metres. |
Agree, And to add to "as fast as they can" they are probably not to the limit of the ski either where as your man on some planks thats only learned how to put the ski on its edge cannot drive the ski to do anything and is just a passenger on them till they hit something. Having the ability to have sudden change of direction at any point or stop or even point skis straight and recover later are skills that are not really talked about.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Whilst I agree with all that's been said about the irresponsibility of skiing too rapidly on crowded pistes, the problem is greatly exacerbated by the greed of resorts that sell too many lift passes per skiable hectare. Human nature being what it is, if the boy racers (they are usually boys and not girls) can't find plenty of speed fixes on quiet slopes, they'll get their fixes on busy slopes instead.
I'm not for a moment attempting to justify irresponsible speeding. But resorts that choose not to develop satisfactory alternatives to logjammed trails - St Anton is a notorious example with the hard-to-avoid unHappy Valley - must bear some culpability for the inevitable and horribly predictable consequences of their short-sightedness.
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Monium, I remembered when your first week on snow you were in lessons 9-5 for 6 days.
That's a good point, i've been looking for a british ski school in the tarentaise that offers full day lessons for a mate who is a beginner. The best i can find is 3hrs a day, most are actually two hours. I think he needs a boot camp week and whilst they still have that format in austria it seems the french ski schools have moved more towards clinics and private.
Any recommendations for espace killy, paradiski, 3v or anywhere within 3 hours of la plagne gratefully appreciated.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
it seems the french ski schools have moved more towards clinics and private.
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not from what I see. The overwhelming pattern I see around the mountain with ESF is group lessons, but only morning OR afternoon, not both. Actually, I think that's fine. If you have a proper lesson, then 2 or 3 hours is enough. I did a week of morning cross-country lessons last year - I would have been too knackered to carry on in the afternoon. The problem seems to be when after the first week of lessons, people give up and just go faster and faster without the basic skills. I have noticed that at busy times, the final Friday afternoon is particularly hazardous "We've done ski school, now let's go mad for our last few hours".
It might not be the case - but I get the impression that it's more automatic for French skiers to keep going to lessons. Especially kids - I have French neighbours whose kids (already pretty impressive skiers) always have lessons, usually several times a year. One couple does use private instructors; one for each child, because their daughter is much stronger and more confident than her young brother, and they didn't want him to be under pressure.
That doesn't stop some French skiers being idiots, of course; my only collision in 10 seasons was a Frenchman taking me out from behind. But they tend to be more skilled idiots.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mark Warner do a learn to ski package in La Plagne only. Lessons morning and afternoon. Can recommend it- got us going 10 years ago. Hard work, but very good.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, "But they tend to be more skilled idiots."
I think, on balance, unskilled idiots are probably less of a danger, you can usually see them coming 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I agree with everyone about lessons. My parents have probably been in ski school for over ten weeks in total. It was just what you did.
Also, I think more intensive three full days is better than six mornings in my opinion. Or at least it works better for me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I love being in the mountains but speed is not my thing. If you get hurt at my age it takes a long time to recover. Certainly I have too little skill, but for me, pistes are just the way between deckchairs outside restaurants. It is same on the roads with boy racers speeding to overtake me in built up areas. What are they trying to show other than they are idiots. If you want to race, go to a race track where your skill or lack of, will be demonstrated. Same should go for skiing: you are not proving yourself by careening through a group of learners on a blue run. Take it to a empty gnarly black run or better still to an organised competition run.
Ski resorts could do more in designating protected "Speed runs" and "slow zones."
The patrollers are much more evident and proactive in North America. I used to enjoy sunbathing in a deck chair at LaBonte's Cabin, Keystone whilst being entertained looking up to where 4 runs converge. The "Mozart" blue run is policed by patrollers who flag down & remonstrate speeders who would do better to prove their skill on the "Starfire" black. More amusing (to me) was watching the people who should have taken the blue struggling on the black, you could tell within two turns that it was not going to work for them, that may sound  but their falls naturally came to a gentle stop before the junction.
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Lechbob, Theres something Similar that occurs at the Bottom of the Lauberhorn Race track, the racecourse has a steep final schuss, usually there is a big sign where the piste splits above with the black run saying for expert skiers only whilst the easier red run curves off and around, if you sit outside on a sunny day at the little cafe at the bottom you can just about see the end of the race track, but teh best view is going up on the chairlift which is right next to the last seep schuss, watching beginners come to the top, stop, look down and either take their skis off and try to walk or leave them on and side slip can be very amusing, theres actually a large run out area at teh bottom so you can in fact take it straight with no problems and come to a gentle stop by the lift but looking down the slope makes things look so much worse
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
not from what I see. The overwhelming pattern I see around the mountain with ESF is group lessons, |
The ESF model may have changed but I'm not sure that the ESF ski school snake is the best way of learning personal responsibility on the slopes. It still remains the case that the most flagrant examples of pulling out blind at junctions and piste hogging I have seen in recent years can be attributed to wearers of Le Pull Rouge.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It wasn't the ESF, but the only time I've ever been yelled at on a slope (Yes, me!!) was after a very controlled and considered overtake of a child-snake with an instructor in the front. It was the instructor that did the yelling and yet I wasn't even close to being a danger to her 'snake'. Let's just say that it rather annoyed me to be bawled out for nothing.
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D G Orf, Iv'e skied that a few times but usually take the chicken run if the conditions are less than perfect 
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| roga wrote: |
| ...unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who boast/think they are carving when in reality all they are doing is going very fast whilst railing their skis... |
I'm genuinely intrigued by this statement. What's the difference between 'railing' and 'carving'? I've seen & heard basic carving techinque described along the lines of, "you just put the skis on edge and they turn" - isn't that 'railing'?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Red Leon, "Railing" carving = riding the edges of the skis i.e. going where the skis want to go.
"True" carving = influencing the direction of travel through loading of the skis while on edge i.e. going where you want to go.
It's just semantics though - personally I don't interpret "railing" as derogatory but clearly there exists the possibility.
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| Red Leon wrote: |
| roga wrote: |
| ...unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who boast/think they are carving when in reality all they are doing is going very fast whilst railing their skis... |
I'm genuinely intrigued by this statement. What's the difference between 'railing' and 'carving'? I've seen & heard basic carving techinque described along the lines of, "you just put the skis on edge and they turn" - isn't that 'railing'? |
Essentially yes it is and it's a method of turning for sure and an edging exercise like you describe is one way of introducing the concept of carving to someone but if the lesson stops there it's only part of the picture. If all a given skier is doing is sticking their skis on edge (which frankly once your balance is okay isn't that difficult) and not really varying that edge angle and/or controlling pressure they are essentially riding the ski and following it's natural turning arc rather than actively influencing where exactly the ski goes or controlling the speed of the ski and therein lies the problem.
One of the important missing elements here is pressure/pressure control (especially in the case of emergency braking/turning) and I'd suggest that's where one of the main differences between someone who just 'rails' their ski and a skilled skier able to blend all 3 elements I mentioned before (rotation/rotary, edge and pressure). In carving I'd suggest of the 3 the skillful application of edge angle and pressure/pressure control are the major keys to influencing the arc of the turn and putting it bluntly most people blasting down recreational pistes causing the problems/issues being discussed in this thread are missing the ability to use these elements with skill if at all.
BTW, for anyone who might have noticed yes I'm fully aware that I am skirting the rotary issue a bit, hopefully it's enough to say in carving it should be less of an active element than edge and pressure and in the view of some it should be pretty much non existent during a 'true' carved run. Certainly I'd argue that if it's the only, or the major, method of speed control/influencing the turn available to someone going very fast they will have problems if they need to make a quick maneuver to get out of potential difficulty.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 12-11-12 16:58; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, "Calling Mars" with poles sticking up in the air AFAIK
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| Quote: |
In fact I witnessed this happening to a highly skillful instructor colleague (not unknown in these parts) last season when he was taken out from behind by a speeding middle aged bloke shooting down a wide open piste
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My ears perked up on this one 
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, Which part? "highly skillful" or "middled aged"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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tiffin, If I remember right it was me in a yard sale not knowing what hit me.... mighta been another occasion as highly skilled isnt what would trip off my tongue.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, it sure was and you are highly skilled.
I'd spotted this guy and his group on the way down before the incident occurred and clocked that they were potentially dangerous as they were all skiing fast, largely fall-line, using short skidded turns demonstrating neither variation nor versatility and descending as a group, so leaving little room for others or even themselves to manoeuvre if caught up in their midst. They had caught me up, then stopped a little way below me. I moved to the other side of the piste and determined to either stop at the side if they caught me up again or stay ahead of them. I'd imagine skimottaret would have caught them up while they were stationary. He'd then have been below them, easily visible, likely doing carved turns along a path that would doubtless have been clearly anticipatable from above. I was a few hundred metres downslope and didn't see the event unfold but happened to stop and turn around to look upslope in time to see the cloud of snow from the mighty collision. I'm sure that had it been me or roga instead of skimottaret, a much more serious injury would have ensued. I think this guy's overriding thought was to stay in his pack and he ran out of space and vision.
A few thoughts come to mind: Firstly, if as has been suggested above we had a way of warning each other when not in each other's immediate vicinity, that may have prevented the incident. Secondly, if descending as a group it's got to be very very loose. Give yourself space both to see other slope users and to change path. I usually hang back, stay ahead or move sideways. I don't feel comfortable in the middle. Thirdly, predictable turns are no guarantee against collision from above. Later the same season, a young woman, poorly skilled, collided with one of my sons fracturing his clavicle. At the time, he had been following directly behind his brother, practising regular short steered turns at a slow to moderate speed down the hill as I had instructed them to do. It was a wide open moderately steep red piste with no-one else on it! Again, I didn't see the incident unfold, just saw the cloud of snow from the collision a few hundred metres below me. I presume she lost control.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
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In fact I witnessed this happening to a highly skillful instructor colleague (not unknown in these parts) last season when he was taken out from behind by a speeding middle aged bloke shooting down a wide open piste
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My ears perked up on this one |
You've outed yourself 
| slikedges wrote: |
skimottaret, it sure was and you are highly skilled.
I'd spotted this guy and his group on the way down before the incident occurred and clocked that they were potentially dangerous as they were all skiing fast, largely fall-line, using short skidded turns demonstrating neither variation nor versatility and descending as a group, so leaving little room for others or even themselves to manoeuvre if caught up in their midst. They had caught me up, then stopped a little way below me. I moved to the other side of the piste and determined to either stop at the side if they caught me up again or stay ahead of them. I'd imagine skimottaret would have caught them up while they were stationary. He'd then have been below them, easily visible, likely doing carved turns along a path that would doubtless have been clearly anticipatable from above. I was a few hundred metres downslope and didn't see the event unfold but happened to stop and turn around to look upslope in time to see the cloud of snow from the mighty collision. |
Very good description there and I'd 100% agree with everything you've said, yup I'd say the turns were down a very clear path and very easily anticipated by anyone but a fool with no awareness, which is precisely how I'd describe the bloke who caused the wipe out.
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| I'm sure that had it been me or roga instead of skimottaret, a much more serious injury would have ensued. |
Are you suggesting we're both small enough to have been badly squished
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| I think this guy's overriding thought was to stay in his pack and he ran out of space and vision. |
Again I'd agree, that was my impression.
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| A few thoughts come to mind: Firstly, if as has been suggested above we had a way of warning each other when not in each other's immediate vicinity, that may have prevented the incident. |
Yes I guess it might have but it all happened so damned quickly and I hadn't specifically noticed those guys prior to the accident but had noticed a sudden increase in semi out of control buzzing idiots, the reason I'd stopped a moment earlier, so not sure there would have been enough time for either of us to warn.
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| Secondly, if descending as a group it's got to be very very loose. Give yourself space both to see other slope users and to change path. I usually hang back, stay ahead or move sideways. I don't feel comfortable in the middle. Thirdly, predictable turns are no guarantee against collision from above. |
Again hammer firmly on nail there, totally agree 
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| Later the same season, a young woman, poorly skilled, collided with one of my sons fracturing his clavicle. At the time, he had been following directly behind his brother, practising regular short steered turns at a slow to moderate speed down the hill as I had instructed them to do. It was a wide open moderately steep red piste with no-one else on it! |
Sorry to hear that 
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| Again, I didn't see the incident unfold, just saw the cloud of snow from the collision a few hundred metres below me. I presume she lost control. |
It's often the cloud of snow that you see first in my experience, it happens so damned quickly.
Hope he's recovered now and hasn't been put off for good?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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roga, Had forgotten about this smash, did sting a bit though and I was glad I had a helmet on that time. He shoulder charged my right in the noggin and i seem to recall a stiff neck for a few days.
I do remember getting up not sure what happened and when his 5 mates rocked up while I was checking to see if the guy was okay both him and his mates completely ignored me. when I worked out chummy who drilled me wasn't concussed but just being a jerk who wouldnt even make eye contact, let along ask if i was okay did I start getting annoyed. It did make me feel a bit better making childish mocking sarcastic calls of "pardone" , je suis desole" "excuse moi" etc with big Gallic shrugs as they head off after you filled me in that I was 100% in the right after being having been hit by a French Exocet on piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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roga, Phil is a great teacher, say hello to him for me
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Yes, he's very good indeed, will say hi to him tomorrow for you 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| sev112 wrote: |
i did interpret that some of the contributors were suggesting that you have to go over your "edge" (whether that be ability or control i'm not sure now, or whether there is necessarily a difference) in order to cross the plateau you are currrently on. i.e. you'll never carve properly unless you really put some eadge on your ski, really angulate , and do it quickly.
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Not sure what this has to do with the thread. 2 very different uses of the word Edge. Edge of ability and actual edge of ski.
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| roga wrote: |
Just spent the day on the Tignes glacier with Phil Smith (Snoworks) and am totally knackered out! Quite a few very speedy race kids around at the moment but aren't there always! |
I hope you got to chat about rotation, edge angle, and pressure; and which of the three you control in carving 
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FAQ
