 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, depends what you mean by 'competitive'. Within the context of a rounded education, yes. Otherwise, no. But you might be able to identify grey areas that would give me pause for thought.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| If a NGB chooses to put up a 'National' team they should find a way of funding it without recourse to public money. |
What should happen if they can't raise enough money from non-public sources to fund a national team?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, Yes, I believe public funding for some sport is a pre-requisite ... notably at the participatory level and particularly for kids. Even then I would not fund certain sports 'participation', due to the high infrastructure and participation costs.
The fact that so much money goes to Tennis in your stats (very useful , Thanks) is so ridiculous it beggars belief!
I also believe that government has a co-ordination role in investing in 'Bean-Fests' .. notably Olympic and European events where the criteria should be making a buck for UK PLC.
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rob@rar, if I may answer as well as d@m: don't raise a national team. There's no reason why there has to be a national team at every conceivable sport, no matter how expensive, how uninteresting to the general public here, or how naturally uncompetitive we may be.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar, depends what you mean by 'competitive'. Within the context of a rounded education, yes. Otherwise, no. But you might be able to identify grey areas that would give me pause for thought. |
I suppose what I mean by competitive is that success enables the individual or the team to progress to competitions on increasingly larger stages. So winning at a club or local level enables you to compete at a regional level, which in turn could lead to a national level, which could provide the platform for international competition. I think that kind of pathway probably requires funding available from some kind of source that is dedicated to the purpose of nurturing elite talent, if only because most of the competitors competing at the elite level will have been supported by such funds.
Or should we acknowledge that in a number of sports no matter how good an athlete becomes there is no chance of competing at the highest level because it is not possible for a National Governing Body to be funded?
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar, if I may answer as well as d@m: don't raise a national team. There's no reason why there has to be a national team at every conceivable sport, no matter how expensive, how uninteresting to the general public here, or how naturally uncompetitive we may be. |
Thanks, you answered before I asked the question. That's very competitive of you 
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stoatsbrother, you're flaming just for the sake of it, pack it in.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
I'm amazed at the public funds going to sports with big TV income - Tennis, Football, Rugby and Cricket. Wrong. |
Yeah but this money is going into the grassroots. In the case of football the money is going into FA community coaching schemes and not being injected into the elite level. The figures actually prove that welove2ski4free's view on funding is wrong.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I think I probably answered that in a cross posting. (Edit: as you pointed out in another cross posting!)
Let me pose a question for you. Should India fund a national rugby league facilities and coaching infrastructure, to enable a national team to be developed to be competitive with Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain?
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rob@rar, No National Team. Skiing isn't a bad example. High (Huge?) public participation yet still seemingly need public funding for National Teams  Something wrong somewhere.
They say in terms of participation, Fishing is where it's at. Can you imagine public funds being used to send the British youth team to Italy for the world champs this year ? http://www.matchfishing-scene.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6675
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Let me pose a question for you. Should India fund a national rugby league facilities and coaching infrastructure, to enable a national team to be developed to be competitive with Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain? |
In the context of this thread I think it might be better to pose that kind of question in terms of individual rather than team sport as I'd guess it's rather more expensive to set up a national system for teams rather than individual competitors?
I can't answer that question unless you tell me whether there is enough grass roots interest in Indian Rugby League to sustain local and regional competitions at a school and junior club level.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| Or should we acknowledge that in a number of sports no matter how good an athlete becomes there is no chance of competing at the highest level because it is not possible for a National Governing Body to be funded? |
... if they are good enough ... and assuming there is any interest from Jo Public then the sport will find the cash ...
I believe that I could do a much better job of raising 'funding' for UK Snowsports ( bit like almost everyone else here!!) ... I cannot even believe the sport has even scratched the surface of private funding possibilities .... and they should have got more out of the public purse. Successively with Baxter and Alcott they have talented, bright, charming folks ( afaics) and their charisma has not been exploited for the sport of skiing. Ms Alcott is one of the best-known faces in minority sport but the system goes bust?
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Regarding tv rights - don't go confusing the Premier League with the Football Association 
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You know it makes sense.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| No National Team. Skiing isn't a bad example. High (Huge?) public participation yet still seemingly need public funding for National Teams Something wrong somewhere |
I'd be very happy to see an informed thread about the effectiveness of various skiing governing bodies in raising commercial support for supporting national teams
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| rob@rar, No National Team. Skiing isn't a bad example. High (Huge?) public participation yet still seemingly need public funding for National Teams Something wrong somewhere. |
The 'problem', as far as recreational skiers and their relationship with racing goes, is that ski racing is seen as elitist. Ski racing is also not a very popular spectator sport in the UK. All that equates to not much money being generated by the sport itself.
All the UK can ever hope for are few competitive racers emerging every decade, which is where we are now.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 2-06-10 11:41; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| Let me pose a question for you. Should India fund a national rugby league facilities and coaching infrastructure, to enable a national team to be developed to be competitive with Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain? |
In the context of this thread I think it might be better to pose that kind of question in terms of individual rather than team sport as I'd guess it's rather more expensive to set up a national system for teams rather than individual competitors?
I can't answer that question unless you tell me whether there is enough grass roots interest in Indian Rugby League to sustain local and regional competitions at a school and junior club level. |
I just wanted to pose some such question to see if there were limits to public funding in your mind, concerning factors such as the popularity of a sport and the circumstances of a country. I think you answer implies 'yes'. For me, as good a test as any of the popularity is the willingness of devotees to fund the elite participants in their own sport. If British recreational skiers can't be @rsed to fund competitors to the level where they might compete with countries that have considerable natural advantages, and more engaged supporters, I really don't see why the general public should be expected to step in. That may be unfortunate for a very small number of potential world beaters, but you can't please all the people all the time with finite resources.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PJSki, I suspect that skiing is a little unusual as a 'sport' in that most participants do not ski 'competativly' in the accepted sense, unlike say Badminton, Football or Cricket.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Run your questions past CCPR - they'll give you the answers to all your questions......
http://www.ccpr.org.uk/
Edited to add, Skiing could possibly fall under AAIAC I suppose?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| PJSki, I suspect that skiing is a little unusual as a 'sport' in that most participants do not ski 'competativly' in the accepted sense, unlike say Badminton, Football or Cricket. |
Well yeah, but that hasn't stopped whoever it is in charge of UK ski racing to declare that they are interested in finding ways of getting money directly out of recreational skiers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No they shouldnt !
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I just wanted to pose some such question to see if there were limits to public funding in your mind, |
Yes there are. I simply think that if you invest/give away money to a sport it should be (a) because that sport has no chance of securing those funds privately; (b) the funds should build a 'complete pyramid' of grass-roots competition through to elite level; and (c) there is some relationship between funding and success. If I ruled the world there would be a lot less public money spent on building participation in the 'headline' sports and more on the those sports which will never be able to raise the funds to do a reasonable job themselves.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| If I ruled the world there would be a lot less public money spent on building participation in the 'headline' sports and more on the those sports which will never be able to raise the funds to do a reasonable job themselves. |
That's just crazy. If a sport has no broad appeal then the public shouldn't be funding the enjoyment of the tiny number of participants and spectators who find it interest.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 2-06-10 12:53; edited 1 time in total
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rob@rar,
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| I simply think that if you invest/give away money to a sport it should be (a) because that sport has no chance of securing those funds privately; |
mmhh, that is difficult to measure, also suggests that bad fund-raising or poor financial management will be bailed out by the public purse. If they genuinely have 'no chance' in raising funds ... who cares, apart from the occasional expert in a very, very obscure sport
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| (b) the funds should build a 'complete pyramid' of grass-roots competition through to elite level; |
.. a different perpective
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| and (c) there is some relationship between funding and success. |
At the individual sportsperson level I'm sure this already happens ... and I bet it is very harsh. If we reward sporting success with more cash ... the danger is we get more of the same without reference to the capability of individuals, potential success, nor is that what 'participation' is really about ... Darts, Snooker, Dominoes anyone? ( I should not mention it, but how many of the British public participate in T-tray sliding? How many of us really care? )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| I simply think that if you invest/give away money to a sport it should be (a) because that sport has no chance of securing those funds privately; |
mmhh, that is difficult to measure, also suggests that bad fund-raising or poor financial management will be bailed out by the public purse. If they genuinely have 'no chance' in raising funds ... who cares, apart from the occasional expert in a very, very obscure sport |
Yes, agreed. As I said earlier I'd be happy to see a discussion on the effectiveness of the management of the various governing bodies in skiing. I'm not offering a free get out of jail card, so public funding would be contingent on raising private funds or adequately explaining why this is impossible.
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| Quote: |
| (b) the funds should build a 'complete pyramid' of grass-roots competition through to elite level; |
.. a different perpective |
Yes, I think it is. Bob Skeleton gets in excess of £2M, I think, based on individual success in a couple of winter Olympics. I might be wrong about the numbers doing the sport, but I gues it would fail my test because there are not enough people taking part to build the pyramid of grass-roots through to elite athletes.
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| Quote: |
| and (c) there is some relationship between funding and success. |
At the individual I'm sure this already happens ... and I bet it is very harsh. If we reward sporting success with more cash ... the danger is we get more of the same without reference to the capability of individuals, potential success, nor is that what 'participation' is really about ... Darts, Snooker, Dominoes anyone? ( I should not mention it, but how many of the British public participate in T-tray sliding? How many of us really care? ) |
I wouldn't want to see a straightforward relationship simply based on medals=money. If my crop fails I wouldn't want to improve my farming performance by reducing my seedcorn money, I'd want to make a more detailed examination of why it went wrong and what I could do to improve things, which might involve spending a bit more money. But I wouldn't endlessly throw good money after bad, and I think sport should operate in the same way. If this year's elite athletes fail to perform it's difficult to see how reducing the funding for the development squad is going to help improve the success rate at the next major championships.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
As I said earlier I'd be happy to see a discussion on the effectiveness of the management of the various governing bodies in skiing. I'm not offering a free get out of jail card, so public funding would be contingent on raising private funds or adequately explaining why this is impossible.
...
If my crop fails I wouldn't want to improve my farming performance by reducing my seedcorn money, I'd want to make a more detailed examination of why it went wrong and what I could do to improve things, which might involve spending a bit more money |
These are the bureaucratic and expensive ways of the quangocracy ... presumably why Sport Scotland feels the need to commission at least 98 research reports (and no doubt many other papers of a broadly similar kind).
Much better for those who care to spontaneously send some money.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| These are the bureaucratic and expensive ways of the quangocracy |
Sure, some times understanding a situation costs a bit of time and money (although you'd hope it would cost less than throwing money at the problem).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Or should we acknowledge that in a number of sports no matter how good an athlete becomes there is no chance of competing at the highest level because it is not possible for a National Governing Body to be funded? |
They could go and compete for another country, if they really wanted to compete at international level. Plenty of examples of individuals who do just that.
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rob@rar, but I don't need anyone to spend my money to "understand" the pros and cons of giving money to Chemmy Alcott. I'm perfectly happy to do it, or not do it, as the fancy takes me, whether I understand the situation or not.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Wed 2-06-10 13:27; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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[quote="laundryman"]
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| Much better for those who care to spontaneously send some money. |
Yes but no harm in touching up all 1.5m UK skiers annually through every available channel .. some will be discrete some headline.
How much does British Skiing, Boarding & General messing around in the snow cost to run its programmes ?
How much do we spend on skiing/boarding as a nation every year .... £1 - £1.5bn ??
What do they need .. £1-5 per annum out of everyone who goes skiing? That should be easy ... they can hire me for £3k - a - day if they cant work out a simple strategy(ies) around that.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| Yes but no harm in touching up all 1.5m UK skiers annually through every available channel .. some will be discrete some headline. |
Agreed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Agenterre, Or better, touch up the tourist offices of the countries where we ski 
I've a suspicion that directly or indirectly, the funding for many of the International ski race programs comes from there.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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david@mediacopy, Yes .... one of many, many channels .. if I am correct, and we spend over £1bn on our winter sports then there lots of stakeholders out there with vested interests in our continuing success and participation (however tenuous the links between those two really are, that doesn't matter that much) as well as touching up the obvious media/corporate sponsorship circles.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Yes there are. I simply think that if you invest/give away money to a sport it should be (a) because that sport has no chance of securing those funds privately
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That sounds almost as if you think that a sport deserves to be funded by someone, for the sake of being a sport (maybe I've read that wrong though?).
Frankly putting taxpayers money into grassroots UK skiing makes no sense to me either. Yes, kids deserve opportunities to participate in and enjoy sports, but why not encourage them into sports that they can actually enjoy in the UK? And no Scottish skiing doesn't count 'cos it's still a mission from most of the UK to get there. Rock climbing/kayaking/mountain biking/etc - all offer similar adrenaline if ball sports aren't your thing, and for all of them the UK has excellent, probably world class terrain that can be enjoyed for much less money than skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| That sounds almost as if you think that a sport deserves to be funded by someone, for the sake of being a sport (maybe I've read that wrong though?). |
These are the broad criteria that I think should apply if a sport could be considered suitable for public funding. If kayaking and mountain biking meet those criteria then I don't see why they also shouldn't be considered. Obviously there is a limit to the amount of money that the public purse should spend, but withdrawing funds from the headline sports which are capable of investing in grassroots participation as well as elite performance would mean that the overall spend could be reduced while ensuring that there is a wider range of sports for kids to get in to.
You might think that it doesn't make sense to put money in grassroots skiing in the UK, but from what I've seen there are a fair number of kids who participate in race clubs at the indoor and artificial ski slopes around the country already. For a kid who lives in Hemel Hempstead, for example, it's considerably more convenient to take up skiing that it is to take up kayaking. Out of interest are there many people, kids and adults alike, who participate in competitive kayaking around the UK? I saw that new training facility in Cardiff which looks pretty good.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PJSki
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That's just crazy. If a sport has no broad appeal then the public shouldn't be funding the enjoyment of the tiny number of participants and spectators who find it interest.
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Do you live in a virtual representation of the Daily Mail? Just how narrow is your mind? Or are you trolling because you're bored?
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Dr John, if you read PJSki's and your comments back slowly, you will see that it is yours which is insulting and devoid of reasoning.
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Nice to see this topic has been given a thread of its own.
Sorry rob@rar, and Dr John, but on this (extremely rare) occasion i agree with PJSki. (at least with his point if not his style of expression).
I just don't see the need for public monies to be used to support minority interest activities.
welovetoski laboured the point that 'sport is good for society, something I'm not convinced is entirely true if contrasted with other 'good' uses of the money (like education, health, jobs etc), but even if true this shouldn't be used as a blanket justification for support for all sports i.e. if 'some sport is good we should support all sports'.
Maybe a level of sport education in schools is a good thing, and MAYBE some public support to encourage excellence in the fields in which the nation produces 'winners' (like competitive cycling perhaps?) but mass appeal sports (football, tennis, rugby and cricket) can afford to and IMHO should stand alone on their own income, and minority sports (tiddlywinks and table tennis) don't deserve public money to support them.
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| Quote: |
For a kid who lives in Hemel Hempstead, for example, it's considerably more convenient to take up skiing that it is to take up kayaking. Out of interest are there many people, kids and adults alike, who participate in competitive kayaking around the UK? I saw that new training facility in Cardiff which looks pretty good.
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Yep, Hemel/London and the Norfolk area are about the worst places for a paddler in the UK, although you're still not that far from the thames weirs, which are some of the best freestyle features in the country.
TBH honest I don't really know much about the competetive kayaking - it's never really interested me. There is slalom which is the olympic variety, but I'd never met a slalom paddler until coming to uni. Slalom paddlers are pretty much the only people who get help form the BCU, and I believe there are failry regular races - certainly there are devisions and leagues. On top of that there are maybe 30-50 freestyle competitions annually, in various places, including the NSR (National Student Rodeo) which is the biggest kayaking even in the WORLD. This is something that the UK competes in at a world level - only a few years ago Lowri Davies was crowned European Freestyle Champion, and we have ahd a number of World Champions too). There are a (slowly) growing number of 'extreme races' in the UK and abroad too, which is more like what your 'average' paddler does. However the vast majority of paddlers don't compete, and just go running rivers at weekends.
I've heard good things about the Cardiff course, but it's certainly not world class either for slalom or playboating. The Tryweryn in North Wales is a better example of a good course (and it's almost natural). Similar courses can be found in Northampton, Nottingham, Teeside, Yorskhire and soon near Broxbourne. There are also a plethora of world class (really) rivers in Devon, South Wales, North Wales, Yorkshire, Lake District, Peak District and all over Scotland. Amazing facilities, tiny amounts of funding which goes straight to the poncy slalomers. Freestyle is entirely funded commercially, and generally people come into it competetively trhough just messing about recreationally.
It just seems to make so much more sense to me to put money towards getting kids to participate in something like kayaking, where we have a great pool of UK talent, and they actually stand a reasonable chance of getting somewhere with the sport.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Axsman wrote: |
Sorry rob@rar, and Dr John, but on this (extremely rare) occasion i agree with PJSki. (at least with his point if not his style of expression).
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He seems to think that grassroots support is needed and he's happy that headline sports like football should get public funds. So I'm not sure that you do agree with him.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| It just seems to make so much more sense to me to put money towards getting kids to participate in something like kayaking, where we have a great pool of UK talent, and they actually stand a reasonable chance of getting somewhere with the sport. |
The UK seems to produce skiers who compete at the highest level. Wouldn't it make sense to reduce/remove funding from sports like football or golf which are amongst the richest sports in the world, and enable minority sports like skiing or kayaking to flourish in a small way?
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FAQ
