 Poster: A snowHead
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Given I'm 200lbs~, 6'4, and been skiing skis dimensioned 110/70/100 in pow half the time this year... the complete obsession that wider skis are a crutch for pow is another reason these arguments are cyclical.
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its interesting to hear from DaveC, who a while back was a fat ski proponent, seems to spend a lot of time skiing all sorts of great snow on and off piste has gravitated to a 70 wide ski. I am not trying to irritate anyone by bringing it up but rather but if you are after an all round ski for a holiday skier that in reality spends most time on piste fat isnt the way to go... it seems to me fat skis are fantastic for off piste only days (i will take all the crutches i can get) but lots of people who frequent this forum rarely get to ski in those conditions on a regular basis and when they read "that fat skis are great for all round use, carve just as good as narrow skis when they are on edge, get in the new century etc. etc. " a marketing myth emerges that fat = cool, new and good for everything and skinny = old skool, piste only uncool they then buy some stupid fat skis for everyday use on the basis they will be good all rounders which is cr*p.
so yes very fat (especially rockered) skis are a bit of a fashion statement just like really long skis used to be... hire fat skis when conditions warrant buy em if you have a quiver of skis and want the right tool for the job
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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...people, especially older people, are afraid of change and as a result are intimidated by technology i.e. increased width, and those who embrace it...of course they will never admit this, but will try and disguise their inferiority complex with the rubbish which is in full veiw on this thread...to actually state that the reason a fella skis a 100+mm ski is just to be cool and that he is giving something up because of this width without knowledge of his abilities is completely retarded and typical british high gaperness...i am a gear whore and have five sets of skis with widths of 85mm, 2 @ 105 mm, 109mm and 122mm...the skis i use most are the 109's..and because they absolutely rule everywhere on the mountain, if i had to choose only one pair, these are the ones i would pick...nobody is going to tell me i am a w@nker because this is the ski i prefer..and i am not going to tell somone on a <100 that they are gay, although they clearly are...i use the 85's (rossi b3's) and fr freerides for longer tours, the 105's (black crow navis) and dukes for shorter tours, the other 105's (k2 obSETHeds) for fuci<ing around in knee deep, the 109's (LP XXL's) for slaying it all over and the 122's (hellbents) for really deep days and switch jibbery...the way i look at it is this...if i am spending a fortune getting 30+ days in, i damn well want to have all the bases covered..but even if i was a 1 week a year guy, i would still be on the 109's...so you fellas fagging about on piste all your lives, good on you, stick with your toothpicks, i don't want you stealing my stash anyhow, but don't give me grief because i got bored with the piste at age 10 and bored with <100 long ago..you do your thing and i'll do mine...but i know who's having all the fun...
okbye
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 22-02-10 14:53; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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under a new name, is that it ol' timer?...
okbye
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have to agree with him, a large proportion of people seem to buy fatter skis and ski 90% of the time on groomed piste which makes no sense. Any ski over about 75mm has noticeably less hold on ice and is harder and more tiring on edge on groomed snow.
This year I’ve been on Dynastar Mythics and it is great to switch to my Atomic SL12s for piste skiing and have the agility and edge hold on ice, skiing piste on the mythics is miserable in comparison. I keep reading ‘carves like a race ski’ in ski reviews for all mountain skis but have yet to ski on that is anything like one.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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narc, perhaps the all mntn skis may not be the problem.......also, how do you know that "a large proportion the guys on fatter skis ski groomers 90% of the time?"...how do you know this?..
okbye
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These "90% of people I see on fat skis..." figures then.
I'd say that about 99% of the people I see on fat skis are on lifts or in a bar. Around 1% are in the air. The rest of the time I either can't see them as they're wayyyyy off over there or I can't see their skis as it's been snowing, or I'm skiing on a piste surrounded by people on fat skis, but actually skiing, so apparently not paying adequate attention to what my peers as standing on.
Are there actually people with clipboards following me around the mountain doing a time and motion study for this kind of thread? If so (a) why do I never see them and (b) what are they skiing on, as I presume it's a pretty good all rounder?
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| fat skis help just as much, if not more, in variable density and breakable crust |
I'd second this. I have little difficulty skiing soft deep fluffy powder on my stock SL boards (enjoyed a nice blast under the Cime Caron cable on them at the bash last year when others on 90mm+ skis were foundering somewhat) but it's in the heavy variable and crust where my Legend Pros really excel over my race boards.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sideshow_Bob,i remember from a previous thread, i think the one about whether you like the look of your skis or not, that you said you have the older, stiffer pro riders...i have a mate who is after a pair of them if you ever consider selling!...
okbye
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GrahamN,
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Back to the opening question - yes it is a fashion statement, but not in the way the OP meant. It's a statement that the present fashion is to ski off-piste at increasingly low experience levels. Hence you will have more people of lower abilities with what would appear at first sight to be ridiculously over-sized skis.
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...and without a hope of developing the skills to ski them 
Seriously though, fat skis do make deeper/variable/crust so much easier that it probably is poss these days to have fun off piste without first being even a barely competent piste skier, and there's no rule says you have to be much use as a piste skier before learning off piste. However, just as in order to become an increasingly advanced piste skier there is an ever greater need to have good basic technique (hence racers always doing drills), I'd imagine that to become an increasingly advanced off piste skier the same would be required, and good basic technique is much more difficult to develop on fat skis. So will these guys be condemned to the new off piste section of the intermediate plateau? 
BTW I specifically didn't say no 1-2 week a year skiers should be on fat skis. In general though, by 1-2 week holiday skiers I mean the average holiday skier, not the minority holiday skier whose goals and intent might indeed be all off piste.
Maybe another way of putting my view is if you have much interest in improving basic technique, get mid70s mm or narrower, but if you actually care more about deeper/variable performance then get max of high80s mm weight dependent though being conscious that each mm of extra float also means a mm less piste performance. Narrower will reward with better piste performance. If you're already accomplished or genuinely ski predominantly off piste then go wider if you feel appropriate. But it's the fat bois recommending obese skis to people who aren't in the latter category that I think are on some kind of ego trip.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
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Given I'm 200lbs~, 6'4, and been skiing skis dimensioned 110/70/100 in pow half the time this year... the complete obsession that wider skis are a crutch for pow is another reason these arguments are cyclical.
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its interesting to hear from DaveC, who a while back was a fat ski proponent, seems to spend a lot of time skiing all sorts of great snow on and off piste has gravitated to a 70 wide ski. I am not trying to irritate anyone by bringing it up but rather but if you are after an all round ski for a holiday skier that in reality spends most time on piste fat isnt the way to go... |
Cheeky one there Scott, you know exactly why I'm skiing those skis on those days  I probably should of mentioned I enjoy them a *lot* less, and it's always a mental tug of war if it's a day I can bare to leave my 115mm waisted, 196 rockered skis in the locker. I'm really not convinced that the 90mm bracket sacrifices as much on piste as a lot of people in this thread are - especially given the massive dry spell we've had in the last six weeks here and watching/teaching high/low end skiiers do just fine on wider waisted skis. My housemate defaults to his Scott Punishers over Fischer RX8s on the iciest of days unless we're focused on training, and even then it's usually in the 90mm skis favour.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DaveC, sorry didnt mean to put words in your mouth but i read that to mean you use are using a narrowish ski for all round use.
do you really like your 115 rocker skis for all round use more that your skinny skis? no doubt if i had a locker full of skis and it was an off piste day i would grab the fatties.. the widest skis i have are my 87 mm wide karma's are okay on piste but i dont feel give me much advantage off so i stick to narrower for all round use.
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bobinch, I don't ski on piste if I can help it. Unless there are bumps.
And that's why we have somewhat full on SK skis so that piste skiing, when necessary, is kind of fun.
GrahamN, hmmm, no, I think it's fashionable to buy inappropriate kit - that's how it looks to me.
Whatever, these fads pass. Look at compact skis, Ski Evolutif, Monos (no, they're really not making a comeback).
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You know it makes sense.
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And, of course, technique and lessons where needed make far more differnce than kit to most holiday skiiers, as is frequently pointed out on sites such as this. Flailing on 110 Seths is the same as flailing on 67 GS skis to the impartial observer.
Or does that theory go out of the window when looking down one's nose at a tourist's kit?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just buy boots that fit properly, the rest is academic.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Right on, SZK - What edge bevel for falcon 10s? I'm binning the skis and going boot-only. I like to be IN the snow, you don't get a feeling for powder unless you sink up to your neck and move at 0.2 mph.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cunners,  I'd try maybe swapping boot left with boot right before making any serious changes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some interesting points and some not so. I think if you're an experienced and good piste and off piste skier then you can ski pretty much any ski in any conditions given enough time on a certain setup. I've spent a whole season on just skinny skis and at least 50% of that time was offf piste in most conditions. However when I got some fats (90mm) then there was no turning back for me in terms of whats more enjoyable off the groomed. I now generally have a 2 ski setup, 90mm for off piste and slalom ski (65mm) for piste action. It's great to swap setup and get used to the different feedback, forces, turn shapes, flex, etc
Where I'm based in schladming most peeps seem to be wannabe racers, the problem I'd say here is too many high performane short, skinny skis, in the wrong hands (feet). You don't see many fat skis at all, which is great as it means very few people bother going off piste. So i'd say "skinny skis a fashion statement"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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waynos, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dunno - I'm out on the hill most days in Verbier and see quite a few holiday skiers on mid-fats: often a Scott Mission or a Neo or something like that but none on heavy duty fat skis. Conversely, I see a lot of Scandis/Swiss locals on larger Scotts, esp the Pure, Black Crows Navis/Corvus, Pro Riders, the bigger Movements and the odd rockered hybrid - Bentchetlers that kind of thing and the occasional Pontoon. These guys stand out like a sore thumb - Noronna, ABS packs etc and usually "live up" to their choice of equipment.
Thing is, I'm just not seeing these supposed fashion victims. Don't get me wrong, I see a lot of questionable behaviour, bad skiing (much of it mine) and general douchebaggery (that means you in the ESF Courchevel jacket) but very little perpetrated by the fat ski crowd. As such, I call BS on this rather successful wind up.
Other than that, I'm glad people have noticed that some fat skis perform well off piste but are compromised on hard pack and in bumps.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The next fashion statement is skinnier skis with fat ski graphics. Oh yes.
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Well I'm delighted to see that my skis are still resolutely untrendy at any rate. Phew.
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Cunners, no, you're quite right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
DaveC, sorry didnt mean to put words in your mouth but i read that to mean you use are using a narrowish ski for all round use.
do you really like your 115 rocker skis for all round use more that your skinny skis? no doubt if i had a locker full of skis and it was an off piste day i would grab the fatties.. the widest skis i have are my 87 mm wide karma's are okay on piste but i dont feel give me much advantage off so i stick to narrower for all round use. |
skimottaret, no, I don't prefer my (115mm) fat waisted skis for all round skiing than my skinnies. They're hindered a lot more by hardpack, so they're only my go-to ski when it's snowed in the last few days. However, that's a bit misleading - My general line in these threads is always that midfat (90mm~) is the happy medium for me. I sold my midfats (my Prophet 90s) to force myself to ski my skinny skis in all conditions - I find these less versatile in general, especially in variable/ungroomed snow - hookier, needs more careful line selection, less speed, slower and need much more micromanagement to get the same level of performance. Obviously much more tenacious edge hold on piste, and makes life easier skiing high end on piste.
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fallliner are you sure its not going to be ski boards.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lets be completely honest. The only factor that stops a person skiing on the "right" ski for the conditions is the practicality of having a whole quiver of skis with you at all times. So people then compromise based on their requirements. Now I will say that some people think they need fatter skis and they are perhaps getting them because they "think" they need them but in fact could well be better off on an 89mm ski instead of the 110mm one that they bought.
My quiver just got extended yesterday to include the following.
1. 70mm - Pure piste ski (15%) Fast and stable - every turn shape possible. Happy on my knees !
2. 101mm - hard charging ski. Go to ski when heading into back country. Good in powder and great in mixed snow. Race ski construction so can cut it on piste. (70%)
3. 112mm - Softer powder specific ski with a light rocker and has touring binding. 12inches or more these babies will come out. (15%)
So I reckon I have every scenario covered. But that's a luxury and you need a BIG skis bag or a BIG car with roof box ! Wife has 2 skis (88mm and 106mm)
The 101mm ski get the most use and in fact in the last 39 days skiing i've used them on 31 days. But I had snow on every one of those days !! The new 70mm ski will get use when there's no new snow and i cant be arsed to hike / skin to it or skiing with friends / family.
Other HUGE factor is where are you skiing? I'll leave the 70mm skis behind when going to North American big mountain resorts and just go with the 101mm and 112mm.
Alex
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I sold my midfats (my Prophet 90s) to force myself to ski my skinny skis in all conditions - I find these less versatile in general, especially in variable/ungroomed snow - hookier, needs more careful line selection, less speed, slower and need much more micromanagement to get the same level of performance.
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why force yourself to use a 71mm if you liked your 90's for all round use and they work better? I know you are preparing for technical exams and it seems to me you would want the best ski that can do everything on the mountain, bumps, variables, off piste, SL and GS turns on piste and crucialy giving you a crutch in your weaker areas... no one ski will be optimal but i still dont get why if you personally like your 90's why go with a 71 waist?
is it that the 90's are more fun where you prefer to ski, which i am guessing is off piste, and that the the 71s work better for on piste performance? or was selling your 90's a mistake?
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You know it makes sense.
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parlor, quite right, that's not big. I mean Holmes was what, 355mm?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 23-02-10 17:51; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, the former. A 90mm waist and longer radius makes high end short turns/dynamic parrallel on groomed harder to perform at the level required. I actually picked up some Dynastar Contact 4x4s that're a bit more shaped, 75 underfoot - not got enough hours on them to really comment yet but will put something in that exam ski thread from a while ago when I do...
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Poster: A snowHead
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DaveC, cool, how is the training going? i have to say i like the sound of the new head titan in a 78 wide as an all rounder... the contacts should be good...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, sent you a PM rather than threadjacking too much, but yeah, I actually wanted some Magnums and couldnt find them cheap - the Titan sounds really good too on paper.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting debate... Let me lob time of year over the wall .....
Piste skiing in warm spring afternoon slush is more fun on 85mm+ width than skinny.....
Discuss
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kitenski, same as ever, width helps with float on any deeper/softer snow and wider skis are more difficult to turn and more cumbersome, so answer depends on one's weight, the depth of the slush and one's definition of skinny. Personally I think that I'd find it easier on soft 85mm all mountains than on stiff 65mm race slaloms but at my weight I think easiest on mid70s mm all mountains.
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kitenski, yeah - or even last Thursday on the south facing slopes in Champoluc.
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kitenski, yeah - or even last Thursday on the south facing slopes in Champoluc.
slikedges,
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| someone who was skilled and experienced wanted to use a 120mm ski for all round use |
would still be wasting energy.
Let's consider the amount of work done in putting a ski on edge assume hard piste but perfect edge grip.
If I recall my trig, holding a 120mm ski against force requires twice as much work as a 66mm ski. (Ignoring anything else that's going on)
If it's not necessary, it seems rather inefficient.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My boots are 98m width... so are my skis
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under a new name, I totally agree but I think someone in that category can decide for themselves if that's the feeling they prefer to ski with, a bit like you sometimes prefer to be in the pow rather than on the pow! 
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FAQ
