Off Piste Insurance cover "without a guide" ?

A snowHead

pam w, no, not in France I didn't, the medical assistance team were brilliant, and I couldn't fault them. From the insurers point of view, they were possibly too good, as they had promised me things on the phone that I then was told I couldn't claim for. Some of these were apparently becaus they said they hadn't been informed in advance of the expenses. .They had to listen to transcripts of the calls before the claim was eventually settled properly.
It was only after we came home that they started to insist on speaking to Julian who had just had surgery which involved slitting his throat and could not speak. When I complained about this the senior member of the team said herself that that was ridiculous as I was the policy holder.

A snowHead

Hi everyone, for those not already members of my Les Arcs ski and snowboard info group, if you want to find out more about whether you are really insured next seasons for skiing off piste, I suggest you join the group and enter the discussion I have started there. Think there will be a few bomb shells being dropped.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

snowcrazy, is there any chance you could copy at least a summary of your own opinion into here, for the benefit of those who aren't and don't wish to be FB members? I for one would greatly appreciate that. (I realise that it would be an awful nuisance for you to enter into discussions on two forums, but I'd love to know what you have deduced from your own experiences, even if I don't get to see the back-and-forth thereafter.)

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hmmm. Trying to steer a conversation started on snowheads to somewhere outside the forum doesn't feel in the spirit of sHs. I have a FB account started sot that I can follow links to there - and so went and had a look. I saw nothing special. Best keep the discussion here, I think.

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Hurtle, fatbob, I want to try and have a discussion with people who are serious about finding out the facts without all the side tracking that happens on snowheads as is often the case. It is not trying to be exclusive, it is just that this way will be more useful in the short term. I will post a summary on here later as I said I would in an earlier post if people want, but only after the facts have been confirmed. Hope you find that ok.

About facebook, to help those that worry. I use to never go on facebook either, but having been shown how to set the privacy settings I now see know problem with using it for anyone. Even my aunt who is in her 70's uses it with little worry so I do not see why people are so concerned anymore. You only have to share what you want with everyone so there is not really much of a risk.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

achilles, hope I just answered your question as to why it is taking place first on facebook , and in fact, it was a post on facebook I made some time back that started this off here again after this thread was quiet for some time. (Check out the post by VolklAttivaS5, in August.)

After all it is free

snowcrazy,

I have my Ts & Cs booklet of my American Express Travel Insurance. It is annual (i.e. multi-trip), whole family and with a winter sports option where individual trips can last for up to 45 days. Re: winter sports coverage it says:

Winter sports includes piste and off-piste skiing and snowboarding. I respect of off-piste defined as any skiing or snowboarding which does not take place on any normally marked public open pistes. Cover is included for off-piste without a guide provided that local rules of the resort or winter sports area are observed. If in doubt follow specialist local advice. If you are an inexperienced skier you must not attempt off-piste without the supervision of a guide. Guide's advice and instruction must be followed at all times. As a general rule exercise common sense and follow sensible local practises.

To me the Ts & Cs of this policy are pretty clear. There could be some debate in the event of a claim as to what constitutes "exercise common sense" and as to whether you are or not an experienced skier. But I think decent policy for on and off piste skiing. Premium £83 which seems like a bargain to me. Here's hoping I never have to use it wink

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Paste from the other thread, not having seen this one:

Nationwide recently wrote to say that they were giving me free travel insurance with my Flexaccount. Wintersports cover is extra. I rang to ask them about it. The policy was better than my current one in most respects - higher limits, lower excesses, and they would not refuse to cover my wife, as many other insurers had because of cancer history. But the Wintersports cover was for skiing only "on compacted snow prepared for the purpose."

One of the questions insurers ask, if you initiate a claim, is whether the risk is covered by any other policy. If you have more than one policy that covers the same risk, the insurers will share the liability, and the claimant will be required to initiate a simultaneous claim with all of them, or recover only a fraction of the loss. That would be rather burdensome, as well as seeming poor value - you haven't paid a fraction of the premium. Having decided that Nationwide's policy was not acceptable, I told the man in the call centre that I would like to repudiate their free insurance. He said he did not know how to process that, and that if I never made a claim there would be no contract between us anyway. He might be right, but I am not sure. It would seem odd that an insurer could foist a policy on you that you did not want. Does anyone have a view on this?

I have thought up to now that the thing I most wanted to insure was medical expenses. I am happy to to carry my own risk in most respects.These days I ski almost exclusively in Switzerland. There, I learnt last February, if you have an EHIC, all you have to pay is 92 SF for medical treatment of any duration in a public hospital. (A very good hospital, I thought.) So that is hardly worth insuring. But I do think it's necessary to be covered against liability to third parties. I too do not want to adventure onto Facebook, but I was able to follow Snowcrazy's links without signing up to anything. I shall sign up to Air Glacier, and check out his suggested fill-in insurance.

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I don't really know what all this fuss is about changed wording in policies. Mine, Direct Travel, still states that Winter Sports coverage is as below - ie off-piste skiing is covered, no mention of guides.

snow reports

Gazzza, but that hasn't changed from previous years. Has anyone actually had a claim refused on the basis it was skiing against local authority warning or advice? I thought this was meant to be about changes in the wording of policies coming in this year.

You know it makes sense.

cathy,

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/mountain-of-debt-for-tignes-avalanche-families/

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Just renewed my annual multi-trip insurance with TopDog (underwritten by AXA), after checking their wording:

Covered if the appropriate winter sports premium has been paid
No cover under Section G – Personal liability for those sports or activities marked
with *
airboarding; big foot skiing; blade skating; cross country/nordic skiing; dry slope skiing; glacier skiing/walking; husky dog sledding (organised, non-competitive with local driver); ice go karting (within organisers guidelines)*; ice skating (if only for 1 day see list on page 22); ice windsurfing*; kick sledging; ski – blading; ski boarding; skiing on piste‡; skiing - alpine; skiing – mono; skiing - off piste but within the resort boundaries‡; sledging/tobogganing; sledging/sleigh riding as a passenger (pulled by horse or reindeer) *; snow blading; snow boarding on piste‡; snow boarding - off piste but within the resort boundaries ‡; Snow mobiling (skidoo)*; snow shoe walking; snow tubing; tobogganing; training/racing (ski school); winter walking (using crampons and ice picks only).

You are not covered when engaging in organised competitions (other than as part of ski school instruction) or when skiing against local authoritative warning or advice.

‡ A piste is a recognised and marked ski run within the resort boundaries.

I'm happy that that covers all I intend to do whilst abroad. I do wonder if it covers activities inside a snow-dome. Since not specifically mentioned, I suspect not !

A snowHead

same problem about the US-centric definition of "within the resort's boundaries". Not a European concept. Dogtag did tell me they thought it might be anything reached from a lift without having to walk uphill - but they weren't sure.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

halfhand, Another Ski Insurance company only paid my claim after 8 weeks when I threatened to come and visit their head office in Farnborough, it was a long tale of 'lost' registered letters' (they were signed for and lost internally).
DogTag paid out within 14 days with no hassle whatsoever and any calls to their ski dept are answered by very knowledgeable staff, if you see them at the ski show tell 'em you have a policy and free drinks and stuff for the kids appears Very Happy

pam w does seem to have been rather unfortunate in her contact with them, I can only assume that it was some years ago, she does tell the story on here very regularly I guess, as with everything, times change.

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Boredsurfing, Free drinks - I like the sound of that Very Happy

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

halfhand, and if you have to claim a full pay out within two weeks, more more can you ask for Very Happy

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Boredsurfing, yes, it was 4 years ago, and I was looking for a policy for my son, doing a season in Val D'Isere. They've changed their definition now and cover off piste skiing and snowboarding except where it is against local advice or warnings. I'd have another go at asking where they stand on the normal avalanche risk assessment, but as their annual cover only provides for a measly 31 days skiing a year, it's not relevant to me. wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

pam w, FOUR years ago! I suggest that you may should stop repeating that story particularly as you have just said above that things have changed now.

After all it is free

Boredsurfing, it only changed in February this year, so maybe the repetition had some effect.

BMC Insurance - British Mountaineering Council - Alpine and ski policy.

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I get my 12 weeks through Dogtag.........

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Hello everyone!
Loads of good points and issues brought up in this thread...this is the first time I have read it (well most of it). My 2 pennies worth:
Beware country-wide claims in Switzerland - many rules/laws are different in different Cantons.
Beware AAC and similar insurances as often financial caps on claim categories (eg medical cover) can be too low for bad injuries eg head injury requiring a month in intensive care (I know of a case like this - cost them something like £15k)
Not to say AAC is bad insurance, you get what you pay for...

Note: any insurance company will expect you to take all reasonable precautions to stay safe/prevent theft etc regardless of what is written in policy. So even if it says it covers you off piste skiing without a guide, ski touring with ropes (etc etc), and you have done 3 days off piste skiing before, and you decide to ski the Grand Envers on the Vallee Blanche in Chamonix by yourself and you have an accident - I doubt you will be covered because what you did was not reasonable...

As for definitions of what is off piste/touring/ski mountaineering etc in US and Europe - Dog Tag are in process of clarifying these at the moment (from their policy point of view) and I think their definitions look like they are going to be clear.

Cheers
Guy

snow reports

the link posted above by Arno suggests that in some circumstances going off piste with an avalanche warning of 3 will be asserted to be "ignoring local warnings" and that anyone ducking ropes would almost certainly be deemed to be doing so.

Would the costs of that S & R operation have been covered had they had Carré or Carte Neige insurance? If the answer is "yes" then that's a very good argument for the "belt and braces" approach.

Good to hear that dogtag are clarifying things.

What does "ducking ropes" really mean? Some popular off piste routes in Val d'Isere have always (as far as I remember) involved crossing ropes. Col Pers and Le Gd Vallon have soft ropes on wooden poles. Tour de Charvet (from Grand Pre) has a permanent wire rope.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Bode Swiller, but, presumably, there would be some argument as to whether the slope on which the avalanche occurred was "steep"? Or, if there was an avalanche, would the slope automatically be deemed to have been steep?

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

dreamguides, that's probably generally true but there is a mentality that, if your insurance co says you can do something then you can go and do it... whether you are capable or not. My policy says I can scuba dive to 50m even though I've never been deeper than 2m with a snorkel. Apparently I can also do some yacht racing and paraglide. Great.

davidof, you'll know the answer to this better than me, but isn't it true that more deaths occur at level 2 purely because more people are out there at that level? And you're more likely to be involved in an accident ON the piste. The betting odds will be different of course.

1:10,000 (if true) isn't necessarily good odds... if, for example, a search & rescue, helicopter, medical bill and repatriation costs £50k, then thats a fiver of premium for each of the 10,000 insured for just that one incident on just that one day, yet the remaining 9,999 will also suffer a variety of claims through the year (assuming the majority have annual policies).

Hurtle, yes, it's a bit open to interpretation.

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hmmmm. Take this example:

a man is insured for 'glacier walking', that's all it says in the policy. He gets out the Aig du Midi top station and starts walking down the valley blanch in March in jeans, a leather coat and trainers - no safety kit - if there is an accident, should the insurers pay up? This happened, there was an accident - I don't know if he was insured or not and if he was whether the insurers paid up. Makes you think though!

I am not sure that most policies will cover reckless behaviour, in whichever sport.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Bode Swiller, ha ha! Quite right! I wonder if Mallory/Irvine were insured? Not that it would have helped them.

So I guess, the question is whether skiing off piste on a Cat 3 day is considered deliberately putting yourself in harms way? I think that depends on your experience/knowledge/equipment....

Sounds like another can of worms opening!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Bode Swiller,

After all it is free

yup BMC top wack insurance will do it (not convinced about cancellation cover though), but there are others as well. Some folk use their Centurian card insurance (a mega credit card) or that sort of thing, but then again those folk probably don't mind paying $x for a local heli rescue if insurance don't come through...

We are currently looking into other insurance options for Everest and such, as a big thing is cancellation cover for such an expensive trip....not much satisfactory cover around in this department. (ie you break your leg 1 month before the trip and can't go - can you claim the cost of the expedition back?)

When we solve this, info will be on our website...

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I haven't read this thread in it's entirety but would not hesitate to recommend the BMC insurance for their level of cover if you are looking at skiing off piste or even scale the World's highest peaks. I've used them (Alpine & Ski policy) for a number of years and found their cover and service to be excellent. I'm not a climber but I need a decent policy for skiing off piste and touring, and via Ferrata.

Help!!

Off Piste Insurance cover "without a guide" ?

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