 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, yep. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kruisler wrote: |
For the great majority of skiers, which ever way anyone tries to turn it, owning skis is more expensive overall than renting..
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I doubt it, unless they all go to expensive shops for all their servicing.
OK, I didn't actually buy my skis, I won them in website competition. And I had always thought previously that there wasn't much (if any) saving, and that would be outweighed by the inconvenience.
Having had my own pair for a few years now, there is no way I will be without again if I can possibly afford it, so I have looked into the costs, ready to justify it when necessary 
But the economics at the moment are very clearly in favour of buying, and even more so if you can do your own waxing & servicing.
There are plenty of decent skis available in the UK for around £300 - £400 including bindings.
Ski carriage - an average of around £30 per trip.
Wax - if you do your own, about £2 per trip, servicing if you do your own has virtually no marginal cost, it's just getting the equipment up front.
I just checked rental prices on the Intersport site for where I'm going in three weeks (Ellmau), and even the economy skis are €89, with premium being €118 and superior being €139.
So with the marginal cost of taking your own being of the order of £35, while the mid-range ski hire is around £100, that is £65 per trip saving - so 5-6 trips out of a pair of skis and you are in profit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="beequin"]
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- £28.50 to carry one bag
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That has to be wrong; it was only 9 pounds when I went last week.
[quote]
Plus the fee for check in at the airport.
He could have included that either with the "one bag" fee or with the "Skis" fee. Might have been easier to understand if he had quoted it separately.
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And the ski price is 28.5 each way, so the RY fare with the stated extras would be 66.16
Also, stick your luggage in your ski bag (up to the weight limit) and just take 10 kg in your hand luggage so you won't need to pay the 9 pounds => 57.16.
But, EJ to Geneva is cheaper. |
I think his prices were return
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It's also difficult to buy skis at present. There's very little information about, skis have changed and quite a lot of us have absolutely no idea what to buy. I'm in the market for 2 pairs of skis, but not buying as I really have no idea what is going to be the right ski and I don't want to spend £500 on the wrong one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alex_heney,
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Plus the fee for check in at the airport.
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Fair comment, that would be £14.25 each way total.
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I think his prices were return
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I think the flight and taxes/fees were for single fare (and it is difficult to get a BA return to Geneva for less than £100 very often).
However, to allow for some clarity, on 4th March current single fares would be :-
£ 4.99 Fare
£ 28.17 Taxes and fees
£ 14.25 Check in and one bag
£ 28.50 Ski carriage
Total £ 75.91
As stated previously this can be reduced if you pack some luggage in the ski bag, to £66.91
EJ, LGW to GVA same date
£ 44.99 Fare
£ 6.00 Luggage
£ 16.50 Skis
Total £ 67.49
BA to GVA same date
Total £ 83 from LGW £ 91.00 from LHR
For me, from Twickenham, that makes LHR possibly the best, but not necessarily the cheapest choice.
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beequin, Stacks up differently though if you are coming from 100 miles north of London. I'll take Stansted over the LGW or LHR any day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Axsman, Agreed, but if you go a week later with BA you can get flights for £48 which Ryanair with its charges will never be able to match - unless you forgo taking hold luggage and skis, which I suppose highlights the point originally being made.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| that is £65 per trip saving - so 5-6 trips out of a pair of skis and you are in profit. |
So OK, using that assumption, for the average "one week a year" skier that's 5-6 years to recoup the cost of buying skis+boots. At wich point a number of people will feel the need to renew the equipment, so even using your figures no real saving is made by renting...
The same one week a year skier is also likely to have his/her skis serviced in a shop rather than d do it themselves, in which case the cost is closer to £20-30 in the UK...once a year....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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andyph,
Note that you might not be 'financially' better off by buying, but there are other benefits (knowing you'll have good skis, Knowing they are set up for you properly, no scrum day one to get them from the hire shop, etc), but then again there are also downsides (finding room for them in the car, carrying them on the train/across airports, not having 'this seasons model' (if that matters to you).
ATEOTD You pays your money and you takes your choice
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Axsman, Amen.
So, back to the OP, it doesn't sounds like anyone on this forum is changing their buying/renting behaviour, so what IS killing ski makers? Are the rental shops are stretching the life of their stock?
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You know it makes sense.
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Kruisler has hit the nail on the head. How many people can afford and get time off work for more than 2 weeks skiing per year? Very few I'd expect and the majority are probably only one week per year. Buying your own skis makes no sense for people like us, but it certainly makes sense for people that can ski more often. I'm sure someone posted that several pages ago. LOL!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
I think I am a 'reasonable' intermediate and I can certainly tell the difference with the length of skis and whether the edges are knackered, but when it comes to Rossignol, Salomon, Head, Atomic, I truly cannot tell the difference. I'm sure I had two different widths last season too and still didn't notice a difference...
This is the point for most intermediates other than cost. Any old rental ski providing it's in decent condition will suit us just fine... |
I'm surprised you can't tell the difference on the width of the ski.
If I'm blindfolded, I can't tell what brand or model the ski is either. But I can tell 1) length, 2) width, 3) how soft or stiff. And of course, whether the base or the edge are totally trashed.
That said, I don't have a preference on stiff vs. soft. And within reason, I can adopt to different width too. But being on the low end of the weight and height range, I have trouble finding enough choices on the latter two quality once arrived at the proper length. It's one of those cases clearly against hire shops, that they don't carry sufficient choices on shorter skis.
My original reason for buying is entirely different from the majority here. But having owned, I've enjoy "knowing" how my own ski behave. Hence my believe other intermediates would too.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Axsman wrote: |
OK so it works in the US, lets get it going in Europe.  |
I thought about it more, it would only work for skis and people who bring their own boots, which at the moment all seem to be bought in the uk sales and a size too small. Skis and boots valet seems to be dead in the water.
I'm still claiming that idea though, where I work has gone down the online check in route, I'm sure valet delivery would be the next step.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 27-02-09 22:58; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Apart from one self-drive, I've always used a T.O. for weeks away where the ski carraige costs of say Neilson, Inghams and Crystal are £15, £20 and £30 respectively i.e. average £21.67.
Even without 10-15 day trips per year in Scotland (where hire for sometimes pretty shite skis would be circa £20 daily), my two annual weeks overseas would cost me about £100 per hire per week. I have wax, iron, edging tools, scrapers, brushes etc blah blah but I do indulge in an annual 'service' on a machine which costs about £20 too.
My last skis cost about £350, mail order but will be replaced in a three year cycle at the end of which they will fetch around £100 ebayed or web forum sold.
They will therefore have depreciated £250 in three years and I will have spent 3 x £63.34 for carriage and servicing. That totals £440 against £600 (6 weeks hire cost). I'm already quids in then without the additional say £675 I've saved at homegrown skiing. I've also saved 17 hours of waiting in line to hire (at say 20 minutes per occasion).
This by the way is an illustration of a 'no-brainer'. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The decision to buy is emotional for many. The calculation of cost seems pretty clear cut though:
For anyone skiing more than 2 weeks a season, buying is a no-brainer cost wise. Owning cost less. And you get the performance as a side benefit.
Those skiing less than 2 weeks, it depends more on how you ski and how you arrive on the resort.
- If you're picky about the equipment, owning is the only way to garrantee you get the ski you want. BUY
- If you aleays arrive in the morning (or late in the evening, after the hire shop closes), owning your own skis means you'll be skiing instead of queueing and adjusting for hired gears first thing in the morning. Especially if you're doing a weekend trip, losing that hour of skiing is a big deal when you've only got 2 days!!! BUY (this scenario applies to me)
- For the rest, owning has little benefit, only the hassle of having to cart them around the airport and transfer bus. HIRE
- Except if you drive to the resort, the hassle is no longer there so the balance point shifts back towards buying... on the fence
Now you can see why this is such a heated debate. A fairly large percentage of snowheads ski 1 to 2 weeks a year!!! For them, it IS a borderline cases! Worthy of endless debates!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Kruisler has hit the nail on the head. How many people can afford and get time off work for more than 2 weeks skiing per year? Very few I'd expect and the majority are probably only one week per year. Buying your own skis makes no sense for people like us, but it certainly makes sense for people that can ski more often. I'm sure someone posted that several pages ago. LOL! |
Yeah exactly and this has been the case for decades. Only a tiny minority of 1 week a year skiers ever buy their own skis. 2 week a year skiers are probably split down the middle between renting & buying. Those lucky enough to ski 3+ weeks will almost certainly own their own skis. So the argument that ski hiring is killing retail ski sales is a complete load of bollox.
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| Quote: |
Booking in advance taking advantage of discounts can never guarantee you the skis you want, there is always a caveat "or similar". Even if you sort it in person when you arrive they are unlikely to have the model you want in the length you want. Rental places don't usually have the very top of the line skis unless you demo.
The big bonus is that you can swap your skis any number of times as the conditions change. This means for £115 or whatever, you have access to a large quiver of skis without buying and lugging 3 pairs out with you Smile
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narc, I think your post is a bit contradictory, you say on one hand they are unlikely to have the skis you want, then say if the conditions change you can swap them. In my experience the shops don't have nearly enough spare capacity to have different types of skis ready for customers to change. I have changed rental skis, sometimes this is done with pleasure, and sometimes with a bit of an argument. I think the OP article was just a result of a gripe about the rental shops' cartel. There does seem to be some truth in there.
If the manufacturers are doing so badly, why do they feel they have to give the shops 10 months' credit? Afraid of losing out because there's not enough competition in the rental shop supply market.
There is no doubt that if you're going to rent, then renting as close to your accommodation makes sense - on family trips we've often returned to the shops for various reasons - ski/boot adjustments, changing, pole straps breaking, lost/stolen gear etc. If you've got your own gear then you can replace as necessary. If you are renting out of resort, you could be in the worst of both worlds - even though it might work out cheaper.
I've never seen a "demo" rate when renting - what's the general deal here - does it cost more to rent, but do you get the rental cost back if you decide to buy a pair (at the inflated in-resort prices)?
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| Paul-B wrote: |
| I've never seen a "demo" rate when renting - what's the general deal here - does it cost more to rent, but do you get the rental cost back if you decide to buy a pair (at the inflated in-resort prices)? |
yes but it costs the same as a premium/vip rental, I dont get the inflated resort price bit, the rrp is the same everywhere.
Dumb tunes - once you go 88 deg or more the ski has to be kept like it all the time, plus it wears away quicker. Most people havent got a scooby doo what they are doing so tunes are kept to normal edge angles, season rents can be tuned up though.
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I paid £32 per bag with Ryanair for our flights last week, although it would have only been £24 if I had an Electron card (no, I hadn't heard of it either).
I hire skis due to the hassle of carrying skis (would need a roofrack etc), the exhorbitant carriage charges and the additional queuing time (friends with skis seem to have to check in twice).
However if I ever get round to organising weekend trips to the Pyrenees staying at relatives' house a good 3.5 hours away from slopes (can I face getting up each day at 4am ?) then I would buy a cheap pair of skis to leave in France, in the same way that if I lived in Scotland I would buy rather than rent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="Jonny luv plums"]
| Paul-B wrote: |
| I've never seen a "demo" rate when renting - what's the general deal here - does it cost more to rent, but do you get the rental cost back if you decide to buy a pair (at the inflated in-resort prices)? |
yes but it costs the same as a premium/vip rental, I dont get the inflated resort price bit, the rrp is the same everywhere.
[quote]
There is no such thing as an "RRP" any more.
They have been unlawful for quite a few years now.
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alex_heney, um, yes there is.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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alex_heney, are you sure? I think I saw it on some invoices I was processing recently. Retail price maintenance is out, of course.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| achilles wrote: |
| alex_heney, are you sure? I think I saw it on some invoices I was processing recently. Retail price maintenance is out, of course. |
Nope.
It seems I was wrong.
I was sure it had been outlawed, and they were only allowed to use terms such as "Suggested Retail Price" now.
But I can't find any reference to that, and there were regulations as recently as 2005 which refer to making comparisons with RRP, so it is obviulsy still allowed..
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I had heard the same thing, alex_heney.
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You know it makes sense.
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queen bodecia, I've looked at web site, seems like a good shop and a nice find btw. I guess you've taken the "sport" gear at 79 EU. Thing is, i would like at least the gear at "elite" level, and even then it would be compromising, really, i'd find myself paying the "race " or "exclusiv" prices (125 or 145 EU). Besides, if i'd wish for a wider, more "all mountain ski", i'd be out of luck. If you want a ski that's a bit wider, then you have to buy, or you're bound to ski only the large mega resorts. I don't think that paying 400 - 500 Eu is excessive, given that rental prices of similar skis hover round the 150 EU mark (I paid 270 EU for my Atomic Crimsons)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sugardaddy, fair point. I probably wouldn't know the difference myself so an 'elite' or wider ski would be wasted on me. I just paid a bit extra for the superior level as I was told it would be newer and in better condition...
When I did have my own skis (both times bought second hand) they were probably in worse condition than anything I've ever rented, so I don't think I'd bother again now...
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Poster: A snowHead
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yes but it costs the same as a premium/vip rental, I dont get the inflated resort price bit, the rrp is the same everywhere.
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OK I guess I mean that you would expect to pay full RRP in resort, while buying out of resort or over the net you'd be more likely to buy at a discount, which in practical terms means much the same thing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| When I did have my own skis (both times bought second hand) they were probably in worse condition than anything I've ever rented, so I don't think I'd bother again now... |
I was once told by an instructor his skis, which was provided by his employer as part of the "paid package", would be so trashed by the end of the season that he couldn't sell it for much!
Ever since then, I've never looked at used skis. Without the knowledge on how to inspect used skis, I stick to new ones. Though I usually only buy at the end of season, when skis are typically go for about 40-50% off. At that price piont, I would break even after the second week of use. (I typically ski the equivelant of 2 to 3 weeks most seasons) So far, I've kept all of my skis for more than one season. So I'm definitely better off money-wise on those purchase.
While ski technology does evolve, it does so slowly these days. There're no great leap of revolutionary technology since the invention of shaped skis. So even for a one week skier, if you keep the same skis for 3 years, you're ahead money-wise. Granted, the hassle of lugging skis around airports may not appeal. But for some who has special requirements (e.g. extra short powder skis or extra long park/mogul skis), buying would be benefitial both functionally and financially. One does need to spend a bit of extra time to bargain hunt.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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abc, that maths doesn't seem to work out from here. A new pair of skis costs at least £250, then say I were to keep them for three years and use them for three ski trips, I would need to add an extra £90 for three lots of ski carriage. So that's £340, considerably more than three weeks' ski rental...
However, I admit I'd probably have £100 worth of skis to sell on fleabay at the end of all this, but at the moment I'd struggle to find the money to buy new skis not to mention I'd have no idea what to buy (other than purple ones of course!)...
I did well on my last set of skis, bought two seasons old for £150, sold two seasons later for £95. But I didn't really get on with them, they were too long and fast with knackered edges...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
abc, that maths doesn't seem to work out from here. A new pair of skis costs at least £250, then say I were to keep them for three years and use them for three ski trips, I would need to add an extra £90 for three lots of ski carriage. So that's £340, considerably more than three weeks' ski rental...
However, I admit I'd probably have £100 worth of skis to sell on fleabay at the end of all this, but at the moment I'd struggle to find the money to buy new skis not to mention I'd have no idea what to buy (other than purple ones of course!)...
I did well on my last set of skis, bought two seasons old for £150, sold two seasons later for £95. But I didn't really get on with them, they were too long and fast with knackered edges... |
If you do count sell the skis at the end of 3 years, you're down to £240 over 3 weeks. That's about break even or slightly ahead, I guess? (Haven't hired for ages so don't have a clue of what price for what level of skis).
So there isn't much financial incentive to buy for the one week a year skiers. Nor any particular financial barrier either, on the other hand. For some early intermediate skiers who don't have a preference of skis, I can understand there's also no function incentive of buying either. But it sounds like you could feel the difference in differen skis, just not quite sure exactly which particular one for yourself yet.
The key, in the end, is whether you find that "right" skis. If you haven't found one, there's no motivation to buy any random one. Any hired skis will do equally well after all. I end up buying because I was frustrated by not able to find skis short enough for my weight yet are not beginer skis. Having occasionally hired the "right" type of skis did convince me that I should just buy one that suits me and remove all the randomness of future hiring.
The fact that I ended up skiing a bit more than 2 weeks a year was more a side benefit than an overwhelming motivation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think unless you're skiing a lot, it depends upon your rate of progress and how much you regress again between outings. I've skied for 10 years and certainly years 1 to 6 when I was only doing one or two annual weeks trips, owning would have been pointless. I was forgetting enough of what I'd learned the previous year and progress was that slow that I'm sure I would have overspecced any planks I'd bought and maybe injured myself and certainly not matched my ability back then with nice forgiving skis. After 4 years, I'd stepped up to two annual trips, bought my own boots and progress became faster but ski ownership still wasn't on my mind.
The decision to buy skis came when I discovered the joy of Scottish skiing 4 seasons ago and not owning would have become inconvenient and expensive. By this time I also had enough experience to make a decent choice rather than just by the last set of skis I'd hired. Realistically then, it's only now that I ski around 25 days annually that it's essential to own and on reflection, when I was skiing just one or two annual weeks I hadn't given it any consideration, probably because I didn't know then how seriously I would end up taking the sport.
There is a little downside to ownership and that is not getting the opportunity to easily try new kit all the time, not a problem really but good fun nevertheless. On the other hand, anybody who is chopping and changing their skis during their annual ski holiday because they don't really know what they want is probably somewhere near the beginning stages of skiing and as progress is so fast during those first 6-8 weeks of early intermediate level skiing, hiring is wisest to keep pace with the fast progress.
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I rented skis in La Plagne last week for 32E. I'd need to ski for ten years on bought skis to be up on the deal i reckon (once a year skier here), maybe longer when you take into account the carriage fees.
Truthfully though, i'd like my own skis and am considering it. It's mostly the hassle factor of transporting them, and the evolving nature of the ski design that puts me off buying any.
Have my own boots.
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FAQ
