 Poster: A snowHead
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rayscoops, gosh what an original reply. The answer is there isn't anything wrong in it, plain and simple. We would all wish for utopia but life ain't like that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| I know I am probably trying to push 'snow up hill' on a mainly middle class forum of skiers by questioning the validity of little Johnny going on a £800 school ski trip |
If it's any comfort to you, I don't see it as an essential part of a kid's education either. Most kids' families will either not be able or willing to afford it, or they'll ski anyway, or the kid will have an opportunity to ski soon enough, when they are spending their own money. There can't be many kids who go on a school ski trip who would have been denied the chance to ski otherwise, although there will be some.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| If I was going on a school rugby or football tour we would have raffles and fund raisers to pay for the bulk of it, and then the parents would have to pay the remainder |
I don't see why it is more worthy to scrounge (part of) a holiday from friends and neighbours than it is to pay for it oneself. There's nothing to stop a kid who wants to go on a ski trip from getting some or all of the money in that way (a raffle might be tricky, but general scrounging and sponsored this and that are perfectly possible).
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beequin, I understand that parents will do almost anything to give their children that adventure of a life time, but I suspect for a lot of kids on the ski trip it may not be their first and last ever ski trip ......... even of the season  I do note ElizB reference to a ski trip where only 4 out of 50 had any prior ski experience and that is what school trips should be about, learning something new. I just had a chat with a mate I work with and he has a £750 form on his kitchen table for his eldest lad to go on a ski school trip, but his lad has been on at least two non school ski trips that I know about, including one in Canada, and he is maybe 13 or 14, so this 'trip of a life time' argument that has been put forward simply does not wash.
Look everyone, I do not have a problem with ski trips, well boarding trips anyway , but there are loads of activity based trips that cost maybe half of what skiing costs, are more multi-tasking, and less elitist, that is the point I am making, and I still do not understand why a school would pack 50 kids off to Canada for a school skiing trip  when there are so many other options available that will afford similar if not better and varied enjoyment for the kids.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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richmond, because it unites the kids, all of them are doing it together, and all are equal in that task and equal in the holiday they take. It is likely that the poorer kids would still be saving their pocket money and washing cars to pay for the rest of it. Jees, I may trying to push a snow ball up hill here 
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rayscoops, I thought that the 'team' ethic might have something to do with it; footie and rugger are OK, skiing is just self indulgent. That's probably right, too.
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rayscoops, I accept your argument that there are other things the school could organise, but they are probably more difficult to arrange. Certainly more difficult to make them work and perhaps even more difficult to get pupils to go. The ski trips do not require time out of the classroom, are useful in mixing people up and seem relatively harmless.
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| richmond wrote: |
| rayscoops, I thought that the 'team' ethic might have something to do with it; footie and rugger are OK, skiing is just self indulgent. That's probably right, too. |
not at all, I am simply talking about some how having trips that are affordable for the majority of the kids, including ski trips.
| richmond wrote: |
| I don't see why it is more worthy to scrounge (part of) a holiday from friends and neighbours than it is to pay for it oneself |
The idea of making the fund raising for a school trip into a task for all who want to go on that trip is a good idea, is it not? and it just might help those families who can not afford to pay for it them selves a little embarrassment, perhaps, rather than scrounging in isolation?
I am starting to understand things a bit better, and there is more than a tinge of 'I'm alright jack, I can afford it, and tough on any one else who can not'. Very sad indeed 
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| beequin wrote: |
| rayscoops, I accept your argument that there are other things the school could organise, but they are probably more difficult to arrange. Certainly more difficult to make them work and perhaps even more difficult to get pupils to go. The ski trips do not require time out of the classroom, are useful in mixing people up and seem relatively harmless. |
but this is where it all started, with the OP, tongue in cheek, pointing out that it is not such and easy thing to arrange, that school ski trips can cause harm, and the only reason they do not require time out of the class room is because teachers are prepared to go in school holidays
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| I am starting to understand things a bit better, and there is more than a tinge of 'I'm alright jack, I can afford it, and tough on any one else who can not'. Very sad indeed |
You'd rather deny the opportunity to all kids because some parents can't or won't pay for their child? That's a bizarre notion!
I went to Bishop Hedley High School in Merthyr.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Rob@rar, I would rather think of a way of giving every child a chance rather than giving some the chance because of the ability to pay. I have no idea why I asked you what school you went to because apart from the ones in Swansea I would have no clue about it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| The idea of making the fund raising for a school trip into a task for all who want to go on that trip is a good idea, is it not? |
Hmmm, not sure. I don't think that I have a problm with the idea of kids funding their footie or rugby tour, or their ski hol for that matter, by doing useful things such as washing cars and picking up litter; that's a bit like me going to work, really, is it not? I have even less problem if some of those kids would not be able to fund it without doing that stuff. I do have a problem with kids from relatively well off families asking for sponsorship for a worthless task like swimming or running a long way to fund their Operation Raleigh trip to the Galapagos or their DofE award trip to Mt Kilimanjaro or whatever, but that's not what you meant, I'm sure.
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| Quote: |
There can't be many kids who go on a school ski trip who would have been denied the chance to ski otherwise, although there will be some.
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What planet does that remark come from? There are a zillion kids out there for whom the school trip is likely to be their only real chance to try skiing. I wouldn't be doing it if it hadn't been for school group lessons at Hillend and trips to Aviemore/the Alps.
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You know it makes sense.
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I never went on a school skiing trip.
I never wanted to.
In retrospect, I think I'm glad I never did.
The idea that children should raise the money with raffles/sponsorship goes completely against the grain. Why should neighbours or other family subsidise them? Pure sponging. I fancy going to Switzerland for a month. I'll do a 5 mile fancy dress run, who will sponsor ME?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
There can't be many kids who go on a school ski trip who would have been denied the chance to ski otherwise, although there will be some.
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What planet does that remark come from? There are a zillion kids out there for whom the school trip is likely to be their only real chance to try skiing. I wouldn't be doing it if it hadn't been for school group lessons at Hillend and trips to Aviemore/the Alps. |
What planet does that remark come from? There are a zillion ex-kids out there whom never went on a school trip skiing and have had other chances to ski. I never went for school group lessons at Hillend and trips to Aviemore/the Alps but I am doing it now (boarding)
So Lizzard, how many 'one-off' sky trips did you go on? 
ps - not my quote btw
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rayscoops wrote: |
so my question is why are ski trips organised in preference to more affordable trips to such places as the battlefields of Belgium, geology trips to Italy, trips to the European parliament etc.
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Simple answer is they aren't. Schools (including many inner-city comprehensives) run loads of trips each academic year - it's down to each faculty to organise visits that support their own curriculum work. My school in Bradford (2300 pupil Comprehensive) do each year:
Ski Trip - PE dept
Football Tours - PE Dept
Iceland - 6th Form Geography
New York - 6th Form Politics
France/Belgium - History
SERN Geneva - Science
Rydal Hall, Lake District - All Year 7 pupils, outdoor pursuits
London Design Museum - Design & Technology
Clothes Show - Textiles
Strensall Barracks York - Army Careers Residential
And that's just off the top of my head.
Some pupils won't be able to afford an optional trip held outside of the normal school academic year - how is that different to them picking a brochure off the shelf in Thomas Cook and not being able to afford the holidays in that? They don't go... (or maybe save up and go in 2 years time - planning ahead is also a valuable learning experience).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| Rob@rar, I would rather think of a way of giving every child a chance rather than giving some the chance because of the ability to pay. I have no idea why I asked you what school you went to because apart from the ones in Swansea I would have no clue about it |
As keen as I am to share my passion for skiing with as many people as possible, I really don't think that I could justify public money being used to pay for skiing trips for all kids. I would much rather see the best quality education service for all kids, and accept that there are some additional experiences that not all children will be able to access. In some utopian vision it wouldn't be like that, but we don't live in such a place and I firmly believe that we shouldn't deny opportunities for extra-curricular experiences for those families that choose to scrape together the funds for things such as ski trips.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| chrisdavis wrote: |
| ... (or maybe save up and go in 2 years time - planning ahead is also a valuable learning experience). |
Which is how my family was able to afford to send me. Trip was planned a long time in advance, and money was put into a savings fund run by the school.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| chrisdavis wrote: |
| ... (or maybe save up and go in 2 years time - planning ahead is also a valuable learning experience). |
Which is how my family was able to afford to send me. Trip was planned a long time in advance, and money was put into a savings fund run by the school. |
Exactly! I know of a couple of schools where friends of ours run the trips that currently have three ski trips on the go for the next three academic years - the further ahead they start the planning, the more families are able to fund the trip.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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chrisdavis, are all those trips in term time or in school holiday time? and are they subsidised or sponsored in any way ? or are they even free?
Ski Trip - PE dept - err ok, seems a bit different to the following trips........ and is it in the school term? and do the parents pay?
Football Tours - PE Dept - representing the school in a competition- in school term? how much do the parents pay?
Iceland - 6th Form Geography - educational related - in school term? how much do the parents pay?
New York - 6th Form Politics - educational related - in school term?how much do the parents pay?
France/Belgium - History - educational related - in school term? how much do the parents pay?
SERN Geneva - Science - educational related - in school term? how much do the parents pay?
Rydal Hall, Lake District - All Year 7 pupils, outdoor pursuits - well yes, similar to a ski holiday, but economical and most kids could afford it parents actually need to stump up the lolly, in school term? how much do the parents pay?
London Design Museum - Design & Technology - educational related - in school term?how much do the parents pay?
Clothes Show - Textiles - educational related - in school term? how much do the parents pay?
Strensall Barracks York - Army Careers Residential - educational / vocational  - in school term? how much do the parents pay?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| chrisdavis wrote: |
| ... (or maybe save up and go in 2 years time - planning ahead is also a valuable learning experience). |
Which is how my family was able to afford to send me. Trip was planned a long time in advance, and money was put into a savings fund run by the school. |
now that is something I can understand, have a school saving plan that pays for the trip in two years time and allows parents to decide well in advance that their kids can do something like this, (it was the same in my day in school, just not for skiing ) but the way the ski trips have been described it has not really come over in this manner, i.e. pre-planned a few years in advance so parents can make such a decision, my impression is that most kids come home one day and say 'dad can I go skiing in a couple of months time'.
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rayscoops, I can give you the school phone number if you want it?
If you're so desperate for an arguement, why don't you just nip down to your local and spill someone's pint?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| ... my impression is that most kids come home one day and say 'dad can I go skiing in a couple of months time'. |
I'd be surprised if that was generally the case. It's certainly not the case in some of the schools I know, which run overseas trips annually and will give at least a clear academic year's notice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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chrisdavis, is that your last word then ?
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You know it makes sense.
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I remember at school being highly suspicious of the motivations behind the 6th form Art & History trip to Italy. Given it was heavily promoted as a reason for taking those subjects at selection time, the reputation of certain teachers for enjoying the craic & subsequent reports back my suspicions may have been somewhat justified
signed a bitter science nerd.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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my Latin teacher always took the day trip to Bath spa, maybe a similar vested interest ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| chrisdavis, is that your last word then ? |
Best school trip I organised was when I taught in London - Twickenham, 21st Feb 1998. It was on a Saturday, the children paid for their own ticket - and qualified for discounted travel on the London Underground.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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chrisdavis, stone the teacher ! this is not school and you can not always have the last word
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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chrisdavis, my first ever snow sports trip was 4 seasons ago and I was the guest of my teacher friend who was on a freebie 'fact finding' mission during term time (over a weekend too though) - I had to pay for my flight/pass/hire though. Anyway, on the trip he eventually arranged for his school, one of his 14 year old kids crashed in to a younger kid (nothing to do with the school) and the father of the kid squared up with the 14 year old pupil, my mate the teacher had to intervene and the father then wanted to fight my mate, and continued it for quite a while. I am sure these trips are tough going but my mate loves sport and enjoys getting kids to do their best, but he also enjoyed the days skiing/boarding in equal measure.
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rob@rar, indeed - my eldest's school are going skiing this half term, but have already announced and fully booked the following years ski trip. Which he will not be going on as it is poor value, by coach and to a resort below his standard.
He is however going on an Art trip to Southern Spain in May - god help the teachers...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't think any school trip is easy. I think the original post was probably in response to some cheap jibe by someone who doesn't have a grasp of what a school trip fully entails.
Yes, you get snow time - which as we all know, is good time. That's a small slice of the apfelstrudel, however.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
There can't be many kids who go on a school ski trip who would have been denied the chance to ski otherwise, although there will be some.
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What planet does that remark come from? There are a zillion kids out there for whom the school trip is likely to be their only real chance to try skiing. I wouldn't be doing it if it hadn't been for school group lessons at Hillend and trips to Aviemore/the Alps. |
Planet Read-the-f'ing-post-properly. What will stop most of them from going when they're students or when they start working? Many of us survived without family or school ski trips and enjoy skiing now. Me (OK, I had one family trip at age 13), the OL and the great majority of my friends, most of whom were kids before skiing became the mass market(ish) sport it is now, to name but a few.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 28-01-09 22:27; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
. We had to do ours at Easter. Actually we did two with the same company, as my wife changed her name when we got married - so we did another under her new name 
rather than dress it up as some sort of ordeal that only those with a true vocation can endure 
