 Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| I take it if there's a crash between a local with winter tyres and a Brit without in winter conditions then the Brit with automatically be at fault, have to pay his/her excess and possibly lose a no claims bonus etc. |
That's your take, but not mine, since I think the UK insurance companies would presumably require drivers to have winter tyres fitted to their vehicles were you correct. |
...... but they do in certain countries
http://ezinearticles.com/?Car-Insurance-When-Traveling-Abroad&id=1269070
the law has only just changed last season in Austria. Technically winter tyres aren't mandantory but without them the police can prevent you from going further in certain conditions.
| achilles wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Is there anyone here who has been through a real alpine winter storm but would run summer tyres during the winter in the alps? |
I have had to wait at Brides les Bains because the road form Moutier to Tignes/ ValD'Isere was closed by snow. When I did eventually get through, my normal tyre/chain combination was no problem. During the following week, I had to move the car every day for a week so that snowploughs could do their job. The next week was relatively clear, even so, when leaving, I had to dig my car out. It was a right pain, but no problem as far as driving was concerned. |
A lot depends on how often the road is cleared and how much traffic is on it. The worst conditions tend to be when patches of ice / slush are left over. I've left changing my summer tyres over late a couple of times and the performance difference (braking, traction, roadholding) is like night and day. Had real trouble getting up a road in Obertauern once because my first set of winter tyres were running very low - someone with summer tyres wouldn't of had a hope in hell. (Only part of the road was covered so snow chains wouldn't of been much use).
There are quite a few coach crashes every year during the winter in Austria. A high percentage of them are foreigners even though the majority of the coaches are Austrian. I suspect this is down to the Austrian coaches being fitted with winter tyres. Your decision, your risk - which may put others at risk too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
According to current Austrian law the police have the power to stop vehicles (including foreign vehicles) that are not suitably equipped for the conditons. Non-winter tyres and chains are not suitable for driving in slushly conditions as the chains would damage the road and non-winter tyres tend to be a nightmare in these conditions. This new power has been introduced so that people who aren't properly equipped don't hold up the others or cause them to be stranded.
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Or cause multiple pile ups as has happened several times recently in Austria in the winter.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DB wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| I take it if there's a crash between a local with winter tyres and a Brit without in winter conditions then the Brit with automatically be at fault, have to pay his/her excess and possibly lose a no claims bonus etc. |
That's your take, but not mine, since I think the UK insurance companies would presumably require drivers to have winter tyres fitted to their vehicles were you correct. |
...... but they do in certain countries
http://ezinearticles.com/?Car-Insurance-When-Traveling-Abroad&id=1269070
........... |
I could not see the relevance of the link - but could have missed something. Could you quote the part from the linked page you wished to spotlight?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, Spyderman, a rather off topic, but do/did you find that when you open the boot in rainy weather lots of water runs down the tail gate and into the boot (near the parcelshelf)?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles,
It doesn't say specifically winter tyres but
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| For example if you plan to drive north into Norway for the winter, it is likely your travel insurance provider will want you to have tire chains and specific winter related products in your vehicle to avoid accidents. |
Will a UK insurer always pay out if in full if you have an accident in conditions where winter tyres or snow chains were required but the vehicle was running summer tyres? Anybody here in the insurance industry that can answer this question.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, Interesting question. In France the snowchains required signs are permanenet fixtures and not just put up when chains are required. So I guess the Insurance company would have to have a good arguement. Over the 20+ years of driving to the Alps we have only needed chains on a handful of occaisions and each time the Police have manned a chainage area and directed cars into to it to put chains on. No chains and you stay there!
Except on our way to Val Thorens where they were waving 4x4's straight on (We were in an X trail and waved through) but everyone else had to put chains on, tyre types didn't come into the equation 
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Boredsurfing,
In France you are more likely to get away with summer tyres and chains because only a part of the country is covered by mountains and a large percentage of the traffic (inc many Parisians) use the summer tyre/snow chain combo. Austria is almost totally covered by mountains and is more land locked than France. There aren't that many motorways in Austria and a few main routes to the French alps are probably easier to free up for winter driving than the many hundred 100 A/B roads in Austria. In Austria the majority of the traffic will be on winter tyres, in general they will have much more winter driving experience than the traveling Brit and they won't be driving on the "wrong" side of the road or have their steering wheel on the "wrong" side. In short you may get away with it in France for 20 years but I'd expect you to get caught out in Austria within a few years.
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I will have to go and check the manual - I have a feeling it claims I can't fit Chains on my current wheels - I can though and have done several times!!!
I will then write to the Insurance Company and ask them to explain:
1. How I should fit chains to current alloys, when the handbook advises me not to and chains are mandatory
2. Whether fitting the steel spare invalidates the insurance
3. If I was to get a spare pair of alloys as per original spec, if there would be a change to premium? As their advice to date indicates its only a change to origional spec.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris, On point 3, I picked up a full set of 5. two year old original spec alloys for my landcruiser for less than the price of one from Toyota and that included transport from the UK to Spain, many thanks to that well known auction site.
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How much longer before the zealots notice the locals must have left-hand drive by local law, notice that it is safer to drive on the right with left-hand drive, and therefore insist that vehicles are converted to left-hand dirve mid Channel? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| achilles wrote: |
| How much longer before the zealots notice the locals must have left-hand drive by local law, notice that it is safer to drive on the right with left-hand drive, and therefore insist that vehicles are converted to left-hand dirve mid Channel? |
I know you are being facetious, but your attitude does worry me, if you really think it is reasonable to drive in wintry conditions in the alps without appropriate tyres, when almost everybody around you will have them.
If you are just going to stop and wait when conditions are slushy but roads are not completely covered in snow (i.e. conditions whihc are not safe with summer tyres, but chains are not allowed), then fine.
But to risk continuing wth just summer tyres in those conditions is just plain stupid, and it isn't only your own life you are playing with.
If that makes me a "zealot" in your eyes, then I am glad to be one. 
And I recognise that this is easy for me to say, when I have only ever driven in the alps in summer, but I hope I would have more sense than to try driving in those conditions with only summer tyres - when those around me would have winter tyres.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Every cloud... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Well I'll be fitting my snow tyres (Vredestein Snowtrac 2) to the front of my skoda at the next service - which is due soon, and will be looking for 2 new Vredestein snowtracs for the rear asap to replace the ones I wore out on the front last year. I haven't driven my car at all in mainland Europe, but I still fit now tyres to my car every winter. I wish more people would aswell, then I wouldn't have the trouble I always seem to have every winter getting stuck in traffic jams/lines of cars stuck doing 10mph cos they can't keep their nice sporty BMW on the road whenever there is the slightest covering of snow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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just ordered new snow tyres for the winter.............€670 fitted!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think it is the owner's responsibility to ensure his/her vehicle is fit for the traffic condition.
If a vehicle, fitted with summer tyres and has no chains, is involved in an accident and hit other cars in the Alps where it is clearly unsafe without chains or tyres suitable for the snow condition then the local police will not treat the owner kindly in their report which will make any claim in UK much more troublesome to get compensation from the thrid party as the owner in this case is breaking the local law.
I don't know why people have a death wish against the winter tyres. They can save your life! If you can't fit a winter set just buy all-season tyres instead of just "summer" tyres good for high speed on motorway and nothing elase. All-season tyres by default will have M&S (mud and Snow) block patterns and certain amount of sips (micro zigzag grooves). Winter tyres are 100% M&S, full of sips and have rubber softened to cope with low temperature. The soft compound makes the tyre wears out fast in summer so for economy people change back to normal tyres once the winter has passed. If a owner asks a tyre-fitting company for a set of all-seasons tyre good enough for the snow then in newish condition that set of tyres should be safe in the Alps when the speed is moderated to suit the snow condition.
As far as I am aware there are snow chains to fit all tyres. Winter tyres are not avilable for some low profile sizes and on some SUV/4x4 wheel sizes they are hard to come by in UK. However all-season tyres are plentiful.
I have never fitted winter tyres myself because many manufacturers don't do my 4x4 tyre sizes. Thus I use only all-season tyres. For 6 seasons in the Alps I have not had to open up the chains which I also carried. I do have a spare set of all-season tyres for skiing. Like many others have said a spare set of used alloys, say with tyres fitted also, can be had in ebay for the price less than buying one new alloy wheel from the dealer.
There may be a case for a insurance company to regard changing from alloy wheels to a set of steel rims as a technical modification to the vehicle. A steel rim has more sprung mass and can affect slightly the handling characteristic of a vehicle factory-fitted with alloy wheels, especially for sport and fast cars. It is just nick picking but could be used by the lawyer to a very good effect. It will be very difficult to deny a lawyer's claim of by having more sprung mass attached to the wheels the vehicle's braking distance will certainly be increased, say by 5%, and the original technical specification of the vehicle (with alloys come as standard) has been altered by the owner by fitting non-standard equipment. Isurance companies will be stupid if they don't make some money out of it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| peura wrote: |
| Megamum, Spyderman, a rather off topic, but do/did you find that when you open the boot in rainy weather lots of water runs down the tail gate and into the boot (near the parcelshelf)? |
It does, pours in near the CD player and the same on the other side.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| Well I'll be fitting my snow tyres (Vredestein Snowtrac 2) to the front of my skoda at the next service - which is due soon, and will be looking for 2 new Vredestein snowtracs for the rear asap to replace the ones I wore out on the front last year. I haven't driven my car at all in mainland Europe, but I still fit now tyres to my car every winter. I wish more people would aswell, then I wouldn't have the trouble I always seem to have every winter getting stuck in traffic jams/lines of cars stuck doing 10mph cos they can't keep their nice sporty BMW on the road whenever there is the slightest covering of snow. |
Always fit the new ones on the Back, never the Front.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| Well I'll be fitting my snow tyres (Vredestein Snowtrac 2) to the front of my skoda at the next service - which is due soon, and will be looking for 2 new Vredestein snowtracs for the rear asap to replace the ones I wore out on the front last year. I haven't driven my car at all in mainland Europe, but I still fit now tyres to my car every winter. I wish more people would aswell, then I wouldn't have the trouble I always seem to have every winter getting stuck in traffic jams/lines of cars stuck doing 10mph cos they can't keep their nice sporty BMW on the road whenever there is the slightest covering of snow. |
Always fit the new ones on the Back, never the Front. |
Surely that depends on whether you have Front Wheel Drive or Rear Wheel drive (or AWD)?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Surely that depends on whether you have Front Wheel Drive or Rear Wheel drive (or AWD)? |
Here we go again, there's a thread somewhere.
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http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html
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Check the car handbook first as some vehicle manufacturers give specific advice on this. If there is no information in the handbook, then it's good practice for safety to fit the best/newest tyres on the rear – in wet conditions, this favours understeer rather than oversteer. So if you have the front tyres renewed it's best to have the rear ones moved to the front and the new tyres fitted to the rear.
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Personally I ignore that  As I want my new tyres doing the work - while I agree with the physics, unless you're the Stig you're unlikely to notice
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| saikee wrote: |
| I don't know why people have a death wish against the winter tyres. They can save your life! If you can't fit a winter set just buy all-season tyres instead of just "summer" tyres good for high speed on motorway and nothing elase. All-season tyres by default will have M&S (mud and Snow) block patterns and certain amount of sips (micro zigzag grooves). Winter tyres are 100% M&S, full of sips and have rubber softened to cope with low temperature. The soft compound makes the tyre wears out fast in summer so for economy people change back to normal tyres once the winter has passed. If a owner asks a tyre-fitting company for a set of all-seasons tyre good enough for the snow then in newish condition that set of tyres should be safe in the Alps when the speed is moderated to suit the snow condition. |
IMHO there are different types of winter tyre. Not all of them have softer rubber. IME some can be just as long lasting as summer tyres (from the same manufacturer). There are also different "types" of all season M&S tyres some have lots of sips are have been tested and "approved" for use as "winter traction aids" (in the US) some just have big gaps between the tread blocks which means they are more use in mud than they are on snow or more notably ice. I've listed these "my" "categories" earlier on in this thread. Anyway, the question is what is the difference between these categories. I'm starting to find quantitative answers. I've been doing the usual (for me  ) reading of winter tyre tests and come across some "interesting" reading. This year as well as what I would call "cat 1 and 2" tyres they've tested some from "cat 3" and one from, I think "cat 5". I'll only quote the braking distances
| tyre "type" | peura's
cat. | Braking distance (m)
on ice from 50km/h | Braking distance (m)
on snow from 80km/h | Braking distance (m)
on wet road from 80km/h | | Studded winter* | 1 | 52.5 | 60.5 | 35.7 | | "Nordic" winter* | 2 | 62 | 59.0 | 44.1 | | "Central Europe winter | 3 | 73.0 | 62.5 | 30.3 | | Summer tyre but with M+S markings | 5 | 190.0 | 128.5 | 27.5 |
All tyres apart for the last one are from the same manufacturer (Continental). The last one they describe as a summer tyre with winter (M+S) markings which would make it legal for winter use but perhaps not desirable.
Edited again because I can now get the webpage to display how they said it should. Change made in column four exchanging studded tyre for "nordic" winter tyre results.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 14-10-08 16:57; edited 3 times in total
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peura, so, in a nutshell, the summer tyres are marginally better on wet roads (which is what you'll quite likely be driving on en-route to the hills) but, not surprisingly, they are a helluva lot worse on snow and ice. OTOH, the police might well insist on chains anyway - and for a casual driver to the Alps (3 weeks max per year in my case) the inconvenience in fitting chains may outweigh the benefit of fitting winter tyres on cost grounds. I have never skidded when I have had chains fitted.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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peura, Intresting stuff - is the Central Europe Winter equivalent to All Season?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| achilles wrote: |
Have sent the following to the AA:
On your site, under Motoring Advice, 'Chains and Winter Tyres Requirements in the main winter resorts' you advise winter tyres are not mandatory in the EU, except in Finland. A friend advises that a large sign requires winter tyres to be fitted if you want to drive on the autoroutes around Aosta between October 15 and April 15. I suggest you check your web page advice, and amend it if my friend's advice is correct.
I'll post the outcome, if any, here. |
Have received the following:
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Your email has been logged against the above Service Request Number.
I have forwarded your email to the relevant department, we will contact you directly one I have received a reply.
If you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards, |
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 16-10-08 0:40; edited 2 times in total
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Can I repeat a point I have made before, whilst driving on your winter tyres you are not wearing out your summer tyres, so it is just like buying your next set of tyres early, it is only a cash flow problem not extra cost, but a lot safer for you and more to the point those around you, which might just include me.
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You know it makes sense.
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Dypcdiver, at my low mileage, a set of summer tyres lasts for years - and a set of extra tyres would present a storage problem.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Boris, no. The manufacturer of the Central European winter tyre calls it a winter tyre. There is another test that has both a Central European winter tyre and a snowflake marked all season. I'll post the results later. Sadly they've been tested from different speed to the above to it's hard to compare. The last one in the list is what some would call an "all-season", others would call it a "no-season" tyre.
Dypcdiver, agree completely. There is a extra cost in buying the additional rims, but for other car that was a one of cost of £40 which I think is affordable.
achilles, ever come across black ice, either here or abroad ? Not much time to stop and fit snowchains then.
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Poster: A snowHead
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peura, rarely. It can happen, of course, and in my younger days it caused the occasional excitement. Thank goodness for in-car reading of outside temperatures. I must admit it concentrates the brain when conditions liable to give black ice pertain. IME, I have not been aware of black ice on roads to the Alps when I have not had chains fitted anyway - maybe it has been good ice-prevention efforts on the part of the various road authorities. That said, it certainly has to be kept in mind.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Here's the results of the other test. Annoyingly there are no ice tests, which would, I suspect show a larger difference than the snow ones.| Tyre | peura's
cat. | Braking distance (m)
on snow from 50km/h | Braking distance (m)
on wet road from 100km/h | Braking distance (m)
on dry road from 100km/h | | Snowtrac | 3 | 21.1 | 66.3 | 45.9 | | Quatrac | 4 | 21.2 | 66.0 | 44.7 |
Now that I can do tables I'll redo my definitionspeura's
cat. | Description | Examples
| | 1 | Studded tyres | Michelin X-Ice North, Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5, Vredestein Icetrac.
| | 2 | Soft/"Nordic" snow tyres | Michelin X-Ice, Nokian Rsi, Vredestein Nord-Trac.
| | 3 | Hard/"Central Europe" winter tyres | Michelin Alpin A2, Nokian WR, Vredestein Snowtrac 2.
| | 4 | M&S "all season" tyres with snowflake/mountain symbol | Vredestein Quatrac 3
| | 5 | M&S "all season" tyres without snowflake/mountain symbol | ?
| | 6 | Summer tyres | Michelin Energy Saver, Nokian H, Vredestein T-TRAC Si.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, note the different speed of testing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles, The two tables are at different speeds (helpful or what!).
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We sure do. But not commonly on main roads.
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| RobinS wrote: |
| achilles, The two tables are at different speeds (helpful or what!). |
Doh. Little meaning in the comparison, then - unless one is prepared to build in a common reaction time, and the effects of the speed (squared).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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peura,
I run Pirelli Scorpion all season tyres which has a 3-star rating against Scorpion ice & snow winter tyre with 5 stars on ice and snow roads. High speed Scorpion Zero has only one star on snow road.
The information I get is similar for the Michelin products.
I do believe the softer rubber compound comes in its own on "icy" road. The sips are useful for snow while M&S pattern is good for digging oneself out of deep snow.
My points were a driver should choose the tyre to match the road condition he/she si travelling. There is no one tyre that can do all of the road conditions.
People who are happy with chains should know their limiting speed of less than 50mph (or 50 kph). Winter tyres on the other hand can be V-rated and good for 130+ mph. The two are not the same and are intended for different situations.
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saikee, don't think I'll be wanting to drive on ice, or even snow, at 130 mph. But thanks for your concern 
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FAQ
. I think I'll have to look into something to stop this.
