 Poster: A snowHead
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For me, excessive tip lead is a problem on two levels
1. It's much harder to crank your edges over with one foot ahead of the other. Try it standing up.
2. It's harder to start a new turn with a ski that's lagging behind.
I try not to complicate it any further than that. A bit of tip lead never hurt anyone, but I try to control mine to prevent both of the above.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rjs, Good point about the course, one that i mentioned previously was exagerating the inner and outer tip lead whilst making medium radius turns.
Now that you jogged my memory i remember a good one they had us doing which was to ski "blind" while looking backwards over the outer shoulder while keeping a good stacked position, quite hard to do. we then reversed the drill and looked over the inner shoulder.
Will need to go through the manual and hunt for a few others but seperation seems to be the key...
Pivot slips are good for seperation and a useful addition for this topic. I tried pivot slips with the student in question, but he just swung his shoulders about and didnt stay square to the fall line. perhaps was a wee bit advanced for him.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| david@mediacopy, absolutely. It's just a question of how you get that message over in a coaching session, and persuade the students that this is something they need to spend a significant amount of solo time on - as it's not an obviously "do something specific" exercise. |
I imagine in a ski school context it's a bit of an unusual ask, and I suspect that there may be a perception among pupils that unless they are doing specific drills with the instructor giving feedback, they are not getting a 'good' lesson. But if pupils can build it development of internal feedback into their free skiing it will pay dividends. If there is one thing that made a HUGE difference to my personal skiing it was being able to feel accurately what my skis are doing, enabling me to change the way I ski in response.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I am cherrypicking what bits I can relate to and what bits I need to bone up on here. Some of it applies, some doesn't and some I don't care whether it is technically or fashionably right or wrong anyway.
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JT, what bits did you cherrypick?.... SOunds like you just concentrate on staying square and ripping good lines... bit early for golf isnt it? i guess the masters was on though 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret,
Because I don't really have much of a grasp on the terminology here, I had to see the diagram to find out what tip lead was and why it was bad.
Looking back on that pic, it looks to me like a traverse position and where the skier is looking to pick his turn... and the only place I can think that you'd have that position would be on a very steep pitch..... I can't imagine why you would have it at any other time.
Then we were talking about hips out of line..that seems to me to be a carving position with both feet and where the shoulders get seperated... again not a flowing movement for me and I can't see why people want to do it....but the skers I have seen do it are trying to do longish two footed carves with about 50-50 weight... so one ski is edged on the outside of the turning ski.... but easy to get the weight wrong and the body unbalanced. But since I don't adopt those moves very often... they don't apply to me, hence the cherrypick.
I can see the reason for them in SL gates but it seems a risk and reward type thing...do it well and you might shave time..get it wrong and you are into recovery..and the time and race likely has gone....
The type of turns I do are pretty square but easy to do because they are more one footed... which isn't going to be able to hold a turn through the gates on an icy course. In that sense, too old school thought IMV
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I really like Rob's idea of proving to the student that they are in a weak position with the pull down the hill exercise. I would probably lead with this exercise. |
It worked well with my friend because she thought, mistakenly, that an inner tip lead was a stronger position to manage higher loads in fast turns. It was a very quick way to show that wasn't the case and she was then happy to try reducing the tip lead. It seemed to have an effect, even in the confines of two "lessons" at Milton Keynes.
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Sorry to have dropped a turd in the swimming pool then got out this morning, it wasn't intentional . . . but in its own way this thread has justified my comment. It is interesting for some to dissect the minutiae of ski technique and in this discussion they prove that there is NO GENERIC PROBLEM to be corrected, just a small skill and personal body awareness to be developed through instruction and feedback. The reality being that skiing is a dynamic activity with its participants adapting to their equipment and environment. Tip position will always be variable and subject to a plethora of influences.
I find this whole thread depressing in that it is focussed on a tiny part of turn technique that may or may not be applicable or awry even within the poster's own experience and is something that is significantly part of intense and detailed one-on-one instruction.
In that vein, there may be some validity in its inclusion in wider discussion of turn technique as some have tried to include. But the opening posts were completely dismissive of those skiers who demonstrate "old school" techniques. That is NOT a problem to be corrected . . it's an attitude adjustment needed by the observer who needs to realise that we all learn different things from different experiences in different places at different times . . . that doesn't make anything right and few things wrong 
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I've found this thread very useful (being that way inclined, including the geometry/mechanics diversion). More to the point, I have exactly the same foibles that GrahamN described, and the various suggestions from the professionals seem apposite.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman, I know I'm being a pain in the ass but the only people who seem to be gaining anything from this thread are those who have, wot us clumsy numpties do not, a deep interest in their own technique. That's not the issue(s) I have a problem with. Firstly it's the dismissive attitude displayed on the first page and the 'generality' in stating that inner tip lead is a 'problem' that needs eradicating. My second problem is the language used to describe he issue . . . an YES I'm not one to talk about language use . . . but it wrinkles my scrote to re-read this thread and not find any useful information presented in a comprehensible manner that an intermediate carving skier can use to enhance their experience and update their skills. Read it again from a slightly more objective and less informed standpoint . . . that might help to show why Epic is so often looked on as the Chocolate Starfish of Skiing.
Is that a route to follow?
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Masque, I agree that sometimes technique is presented a little too dogmatically; but I don't think every thread needs to be relevant to skiers of all types and levels.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Masque, I agree that sometimes technique is presented a little too dogmatically; but I don't think every thread needs to be relevant to skiers of all types and levels. |
That's where we diverge and why Epic has the reputation it's so richly earned. Skiing is a wonderful experience and those of us who've managed to gain a modicum of skill should recognise a personal responsibility to present our argument in a manner that less experienced participants may have a chance to comprehend.
This thread has been appalling in presenting a minor technique issue that's inherently influenced by a multitude of external circumstances as something of great portent requiring major effort to eradicate. I do wonder at some of the Damascene conversions expressed in this thread by people who were immersed in a learning environment and offering us just one explanation for their improved skills level.
'
If we don't want to appear to be talking bollux to the majority of the readers here, then we need to enunciate in a manner and context that we can all understand. . . otherwise Epic Lite' 
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 15-04-08 23:24; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque, I'm struggling to understand. Are you saying that there should be no place (not even in Bzk) on snowHeads for any chocolate starfish gazing type of technical discussion of skiing, which on occasion may not apply to the casual skier?
If your perception of Epic being the chocolate starfish of skiing, I wonder if you do know what the outside perception of sH's is?
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veeeight, That depends on whether you think that BZK should be inclusive or exclusive . . . which goes some way to say it may be going down the same route as Epic. I have had some, abet limited, feedback from outside observers and they have not been very complementary of this section of the forum.
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You know it makes sense.
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Masque, reading your post brings images of kettles & pots into my head.
I have found this thread useful.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
That's where we diverge and why Epic has the reputation it's so richly earned. Skiing is a wonderful experience and those of us who've managed to gain a modicum of skill should recognise a personal responsibility to present our argument in a manner that less experienced participants may have a chance to comprehend.
This thread has been appalling in presenting a minor technique issue that's inherently influenced by a multitude of external circumstances as something of great portent requiring major effort to eradicate. I do wonder at some of the Damascene conversions expressed in this thread by people who were immersed in a learning environment and offering us just one explanation for their improved skills level.
'
If we don't want to appear to be talking bollux to the majority of the readers here, then we need to enunciate in a manner and context that we can all understand. . . otherwise Epic Lite' |
Can we have this in plain English for a start then please?
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Poster: A snowHead
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JT, one benefit relevant to you on getting this kind of thing sorted out is that a stonger hip position and finer control of the inside ski really gets you in a much better position for skiing breakable crust: different variation wrt leg length but the basic techniques are the same.
skimottaret, fair dues if that's what your trainer was saying - but I still don't like the fixing the symptom rather than the problem. Another helper for getting the hips/leg position sorted may be skiing only on the outer leg (i.e. changing feet at the transition). It's difficult to let the outer leg/hip hang back when that's the only thing providing support . Then place the inside ski back on the snow, very light but specifically on the little toe edge, so you're still not using it for support, and so no opportunity to slacken the hip position. Then progressively increase the amount of pressure on the inside ski to get it working, but without enough change to allow hip recidivsm. I.e. remove the crutch that supports the problem, fix the problem and then reintroduce the support in an uncorrupted manner. If it's an ingrained habit I doubt there's going to be any quick fix that is much more than cosmetic.
Masque, this thread was started by an instructor asking for alternative drills to help fix a problem that reduces performance. Discussion on technique would be a primary purpose of this forum. It's then entirely reasonable to discuss the nature of the problem and ways to fix it. As I assume I'm the target of the "Damascene" jibe, no it wasn't a Damascene moment, but one of the many step ups that go along with the plateaux in an irregular learning curve. I've tried many drills over the last few years, and a load of them have been described on this forum by several posters so it would seem reasonable to talk about relevant drills that work, or on occasion to step back a bit and let that stuff coalesce. Of course detail at this level is going to be between those who do take a detailed view of their or others' technique. It would appear that others are finding it useful even if not in a position to contribute themselves. If it's not doing it for you, then fine - butt out. (E.g. I have no interest in Land Rovers or iPhones, so have not inflicted my presence on those threads).
PS: brief footnote on the geometry issue. It had been nagging in the back of my mind, but I had vague memories of a definition of parallel curved lines involving the the centre of curvature. Now found a reference; so if two curves are parallel, then their centres of curvature trace the same line (called the evolute), by definition. Hence if two parallel curves are separated in space (i.e. are not the same line), then they necessarily have different radii. It looks like this was covered in 1871: Cayley, A. "On Evolutes of Parallel Curves." Quart. J. Pure Appl. Math. 11, 183-199, 1871.
PPS: Fastman in that thread veeeight linked to described how two skis could work with the same radius - by involving an inner ski rotation at transition (i.e. a period when it turns with very much shorter radius), causing them to diverge/scissor at the start of the turn, increasing separation until the apex, and converging until completion, when another rotation would then be required to return the skis to parallel. But they are then actually turning parallel for only one very brief moment in the turn - no problem, and also little practical significance, but also not parallel.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN, OK , I've obviously read this thread from/with the wrong state of mind, I'll shut up and give it another read. No you weren't the target of a 'jibe'
uktrailmonster, it is.Frosty the Snowman, you could well be right 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, we've been around this loop before (where some participants in BzK are roundly criticised for talking "too deeply" about technique in "too technical" a manner) and it was an unpleasant experience which contributed to people permanently or temporarily absenting themselves from this part of the forum. If you don't find this thread relevant then don't read it. If you don't understand what is being said then ask a question. If you disagree with what is being said then argue your case. But FFS don't criticise the process of having debates like this
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Masque wrote: |
| In that vein, there may be some validity in its inclusion in wider discussion of turn technique as some have tried to include. But the opening posts were completely dismissive of those skiers who demonstrate "old school" techniques. That is NOT a problem to be corrected . . it's an attitude adjustment needed by the observer who needs to realise that we all learn different things from different experiences in different places at different times . . . that doesn't make anything right and few things wrong |
OK, into the substance of the debate at last.
I have to say I think you're wrong. It is a problem to be corrected because excessive tip lead is biomechanically weaker than a more aligned or stacked position. It's exactly the same issue about being vertically centered on your skis rather than leaning too far back. Being centered means your skeleton can work efficiently; leaning back means your muscles, especially quads, have to work much harder. How many intermediate skiers talk about "thigh burn"? How many intermediate lose some control in the last third of the turn because they don't maintain a centered stance? Lots, me included, so finding a biomechanically efficient stance is important for all skiers not just the people in this thread who are interesting in tip lead.
There will be a point when a normal variation in tip lead during turns becomes excessive and therefore IS a problem to be corrected. This is especially important in fast, long radius turns when you carry a lot of G-force around the curve. If you can't adequately stand up against this force you can't manage it, and therefore you lose vital control. I have had this pointed out in my own skiing this season by former Olympic skier turned coach and by three separate BASI Trainers who were assessing my ski performance. For me it is a hang-over of being an 'old skool' skier, along with a range of other things which a careful observer can see. It was also the reason why the friend I was teaching last week did exactly the same. To improve my performance on piste in fast turns this is a major issue for me. It's something I've been working on all season and I will be very grateful for any greater understanding of the problem that I can gain from a thread like this, especially so if I can pick up a few drills will allow me to change my skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Masque wrote: |
| I do wish that some posters could/should/perhaps be a little more expansive in their descriptions so that us lesser more mortal skiers get a clearer idea of what's being debated and more importantly why. |
If there was stuff that you didn't understand surely a question would have been better than a two-footed rant? There is a reason why the thread, and it's major diversion, didn't get expansive in describing the basics: there is a shared understanding amongst the participants that they are all familiar with the basics we are discussing. This doesn't mean that any of us wouldn't be very happy to explain why we think this is important if anyone had asked (indeed, I tried to do that in my last post). But I don't need to rehearse that level of information with Scott, Graham, V8, et al because I know where they are coming from. The last thing I would want with that crowd is to be accused of teaching granny...
I take exception to the accusation of elitism. I try my hardest, online and on-snow, to share whatever mediocre skills I have with anyone who wants to have a discussion with me. I hope to prove this to you next week in VT if you want to look at this issue further.
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rob@rar, I have apologised for it being elite or elitist is not an insult but it can cause others to turn away. I look forward to skiing with you . . . should I bring a spare board?
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Masque, thanks, I was still writing my last post and didn't see your apology. I'm sorry if you think I over-reacted but the last time this type of argument was levelled at me I was so incensed that I stopped posting in BzK and only resumed after the intervention of a couple of people who think that detailed discussions on technique and how to teach it do have a place on snowHeads. I do think the context in which you used the word elite could easily be interpreted as an insult; I certainly did. However, I don't know anyone who takes part in these kind of debates who would object to explaining in layman's terms what is being discussed if only there seemed to be an appetite for it. In fact I'd love it to happen. It sometimes feels odd to me that debates about skiing are frowned on, even in this quiet little corner of the forum.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
PPS: Fastman in that thread veeeight linked to described how two skis could work with the same radius - by involving an inner ski rotation at transition (i.e. a period when it turns with very much shorter radius), causing them to diverge/scissor at the start of the turn, increasing separation until the apex, and converging until completion, when another rotation would then be required to return the skis to parallel. But they are then actually turning parallel for only one very brief moment in the turn - no problem, and also little practical significance, but also not parallel. |
I believe this post here by FastMan : http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=726139#726139 - is the one! It's an excellent description, and describes exactly the things I was trying to explain earlier about how the inside ski has to either diverge, be rotated slightly or put on a more extreme edge angle than the outside ski (hence tighter radius turn!) for it to be carved. I agree with everything said in FastMan's post. Great reading, and links to some excellent photos showing how the top guys do it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well, I reckon it's refreshing to see the return to Bzk of a thread with some technical depth, and see some new posts here from contributers who had appeared to have 'gone away'. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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david@mediacopy, my thoughts exactly. But unfortunately they pop their head above the parapet and look what happens
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You know it makes sense.
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Masque, Good to see you've calmed down a bit
A thread titled "getting rid of inner ski tip lead" to me implies a discussion of the finer points of ski technique rather than a general beginners discussion. If we all had to explain every single bit of terminology in every single thread it would make for some pretty patronising reading for those most likely to benefit from the discussion, especially on a dedicated ski forum. Surely the level of explanation should be pitched with regard to the thread title? So a thread like this would be treated quite differently to a thread like "How do I stop and make turns on these bloody things!"
I'm certainly no expert, but I can easily relate to and follow this debate, so I assume others can too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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uktrailmonster,
| Quote: |
I'm certainly no expert, but I can easily relate to and follow this debate, so I assume others can too.
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I wish! I've fallen almost at the start, entirely because my relevant scientific knowledge is so woefully lacking. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Well I'm certainly no expert, but have been able to follow the principles involved in the discussion (well to be fair the radius stuff had me switching off). I have somehow "progressed" to a small degree of tip lead which has on occasion extended and have also experienced some scissoring. The latter has now mostly been eradicated, but now I can think about some exercises to adjust the former if the tip lead becomes more than marginal.
Why? Well it seems well-argued by some that it is desirable when initiating one's next turn and ensuring that bio-mechanically one is best positioned towards the end of a turn. Recalling where, in the course of a turn, things have sometimes come a little unstuck at times, I can see now where a tweak as detailed may iron out the "problem".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I am starting a new job coaching reasonably competent racers in a few weeks time and these type of "difficult to fix" technical skiing problems are things I will have to contend with and would like to have a deeper understanding of so i can be a useful coach. |
Good luck with the coaching role, hope you get some good results! Out of interest, is this on proper snow or at an indoor snow slope or dry slope here in Blighty?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sideshow_Bob, It is just a part time role at Milton Keynes with the Xscape club. I was chuffed to get offered the opportunity to work with some better skiers and really looking forward to it. I have no personal experience of racing so it will be a bit of a challenge to say the least
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, what level of skiers have you traditionally taught?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mark Hunter, i just qualified last season and have been teaching dry slope and for about a year part time at MK, mostly beginners and intermediates with a few good intermediates and occasional advanced skiers/friends.
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skimottaret, thanks. I guess teaching racers will be instructive to you also. It'll be interesting looking for the areas that require tweaking in a supposedly good skier rather than those who's problems probably stand out more. I can quite see why this discussion and others like it can be quite helpful.
Good luck - it would be fascinating following your experiences if you have the time/inclination to allow us into that "world".
I'm sure it's here somewhere, but what instructor level have you qualified at?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, will you be working with Ross at the Sunday mornings club? It will be good to work with some of those kids as a contrast to 'Parents & Toddlers'
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rob@rar, occasional tuesdays nights to start with as Sundays 8-10 is toooooo early for me... if i can convince skimottaretjunior to get out the rack early i may do sundays as well but we shall see.
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FAQ
The same should be applied to all sH threads - perhaps we could have this as the new sH motto 
