" as the questions/answers can help the light to go on for readers in the wings who might not be able to articulate their confusion, or feel awkward doing so. The people asking the questions play a big role in fostering clarity for others. "
A bit off thread I know, but FastMan this is so true.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar, couldn't tell if your post was a statement, or a question (what with the question mark at the end of it)....
JT, I did a (complex) post yonks ago about counter, and "face down the hill" etc. Here it is
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
veeeight,
In my minds eye the shoulders and hips were getting left a fraction behind.....widening the body through the turn. On easy slopes this is manageable and as I said it may have been that these skiers were getting pulled that way by the inconsistancy of the snow on the fridge. These werern't unskilled skers btw..which is why I think the conditions played a part.
I agree that the body should follow the line of the path....and we are talking about a minute degree here...not a big rotation
rob@rar, couldn't tell if your post was a statement, or a question (what with the question mark at the end of it)....
Definitely a question. It's a rare occasion when I feel confident enough about technique to post a statement
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
JT, yes, this is a very common trait, it takes years (even amongst extremely good skiers) to train the body not to open, or to let the hips drop.
Unfortunately this sort of thing tends to get muddled by instruction statements such as "advance your inside ski to carve"..... and is tied in with the topic of tip lead.
If the inside arm is used to point in the direction you are travelling will this help keeping upper body square in longer radius turns (as well as more countered in short radius)?
If the inside arm is used to point in the direction of the momentum of the CoM (as opposed to the outside of the turn) - then this will help keep the upper body well aligned with the skis. Unfortunately when I see this drill being done the majority of the time, people are pointing too much to the outside of the turn, and then the hips are too "open".
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Just as a point of interest for those who want to train their eye a little better:
Nyberg, (and this could be down to nationalistic differences) uses his upper body in a different manner when ILE'ing to those before him in that vid, in the sense that he uses much more inclination (upper body banking if you like, watch how high his outside hand is compared with Guay), whereas those skiers previous (Guay, Grandi etc.) all tend to let the skis steer back under them, and out again to form a natural inclination, before angulating. The latter technique (effective toppling) is my (CSCF) preferred way, keeping the upper body nice and quiet, and letting the legs and skis do the work.
After all it is free
After all it is free
veeeight wrote:
watch how high his outside hand is compared with Guay),
His left looks almost left behind too; is there a double fall line here, is it camera angle?
Quote:
whereas those skiers previous (Guay, Grandi etc.) all tend to let the skis steer back under them, and out again to form a natural inclination, before angulating.
Now I'm wishing for a clip of Grandi making more rounded turns.
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Ah well, evidently it was a silly question.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Hurtle, Easiski is pretty busy atm, and you made it quite clear you did not like "everyone else's" styles of discussion... So you cannot really be expecting them to answer can you?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
little tiger, Thank you for that helpful but inaccurate contribution.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
veeeight, rob@rar, I am getting a little confused with the terminology and comments on the schlopy drill...
when you say hips "open" do you mean the shoulders are over countered with the inner hip too forward and too perpendicular to the fall line.? would "closed" indicate a collapsed inner hip with the inside ski lagging and the bum back?
If I am in a short radius turn should I be pointing my inside arm across the skis as this would be in the line of tangent to the COM as per your diagrams or should the point be parallel to the skis (the line of travel)?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Hurtle, having put a fair bit of effort into getting those screen captures for fastman when people wanted to know about extension of inside leg relative to flexion of oustide leg (Note it remains the same length during a quite substantial extension of the other leg)... I can say that is not true... when I saw the comments thrown in after those screen shots my reaction was "pearls before swine" .... It makes you seriously consider if it is worth spending the time and effort to try to help...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
little tiger, I cannot recall having commented on your photos which I did, as it happens, find interesting - and which prove the relevance, on here, of the maxim that a picture is worth a thousand words.
PS Brevity is the soul of wit.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hurtle, it might help if we go back to the 'gait mechanics' explanation.
How about if, instead of skiing, we think of climbing steps? Let's say two or three at a time.
Put a foot on the third step. It's naturally set just as wide as you need to stop A-framing.
Push down on that foot. Your ankle automatically gets strong to put your knee in the right position so that you can get that hip up.
The hip goes forward onto the foot and a little wide of it.
As soon as that happens you can make the leg long and put the other foot on step 6.
To me then, the recipe for A-framing seems to be: Feet too wide, hip too far back, or bad knee tracking when it is bent enough to make the third step.
little tiger, we forgive those who...
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 12-11-07 22:22; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hurtle, no you did not comment - only slikedges & comprex did. (and I think comprex did not need the pictures as he already got it)....
You just joined in the complaint that it had taken a whole thread to explain something to a standard considered not satisfactory by the complainee..
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
comprex, my answer was more simple.... I do not have trouble with an A-frame with ILE because I don't have trouble with an A-frame in my arc-2-arc turns in general.... the ILE transition seems no more likely to induce one than another would as far as I can see....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
little tiger wrote:
Hurtle, no you did not comment - only slikedges & comprex did.
Should I assume from this that I'm included in your group of swine?
little tiger, No, I was not complaining, I was merely extolling easiski's virtues, once again. Your answer to my question is, unfortunately, a little bit too simple - the implication of my question was that, apparently unlike you, I do have to think about avoiding A-frame-itis.
comprex, thank you, that's clear, not to mention forgiving. It's a bit difficult to think, in abstract, of the mistakes I make on skis, but suspect from your clear explanation, that the thing I should take especial care to avoid is my hip being too far back. I shall work on it.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret, "hips open" means hips are not square to the skis, instead hips are facing the outside of the turn, as opposed to facing the direction the skis are travelling. Usually indicated by a large tip lead.
Closed hip normally just means hips square to the (parallel) skis.
Remember that counter is something you ski into (with your legs/skis, as opposed to turning/twisting your upper body to accomplish) - so in a short radius turn, where your line of momentum tends to be down the fall line. But the teapot isn't usually used in short radius anyhow.
veeeight, thanks that clears that up the open vs. closed for me. I was confused slightly as i tend to over counter with my hips back. I assumed that whe doing this that the hips would be "closed" but thinking about it that is not the case.
Am i right in saying that when "park and riding" the hips are typically "open" but collapsed and back with the inside ski tip leading forward.
I was using the short radius turn as an example because the body position was more exagerated and agree you wouldnt use the teapot for that.
Quote:
Unfortunately when I see this drill being done the majority of the time, people are pointing too much to the outside of the turn, and then the hips are too "open".
But even during a long radius turn wouldnt your line of momentum have you pointing to the outside of the turn with a little bit of counter? where do you tell your students point during a LR schlopy drill? I am guessing that it depends what you are trying to correct. If too much counter then point in the direction of travel, if counter is okay but not enough angulation then more to the outside of the turn?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret, "Park and Ride" tends to refer to a static position through the turn, where the skier initiates the arc, gets a certain amount of edge angle ("park") and then holds it ("Ride") through the arc until the start of the next. I'd say they can still have good posture etc.
After all it is free
After all it is free
david@mediacopy, yeah that is what i always thought as well but thinking about it most park and riders I have seen tend to have a lot of inside tip lead as well.. Might just be the ones i am remembering though. Just wondering if the two are related.
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oooo, none of this sounds good to me....
if I am reading it right..inside tip leads..?? I am not so sure that hips square to the skis is a great position either...and would want to be slightly shut..as opposed to the defition of closed, above. Talking about a typical GS piste turn here.
The best maixim so far for me is follow the line of the skis but then this gorilla-type stance of modern skiing that you see so much ..well, it can look so wrong, so easily.
I can, however, see a wider body shape stance - not skis - being more gate-oriented, but not for general skiing...IMV
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Liked Guay and Nyberg... the first skier just looked pug-ugly to me..!!!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
JT, your right Inside tip lead is a problem to eliminate, not a good thing to encourage...
In the video most of the racers are leading into the turn with their inner shoulder but hips are pretty square to the hill keeping tips level.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, I don't get this - last year Veeeight posted lovely diagrams of the body taking one path and the skis another. Absolutely agree ... Now you're trying to say that the hips should stay square to the skis throughout the turn - sorry - don't agree AT ALL. A small advance of the inside tip,toe,knee,hip, shoulder is essential to avoid losing your edge I think.
Hurtle, This is complicated and I'm v. busy at the moment. When I have time I might try to come up with 2 sentences, but if I try it now I'll get jumped on. If I was taking a quick stab I'd say that you transfer your weight before you do anything else (ie: you remain in the same position) and then begin to extend that leg , this causes a chain of events to happen which result in your ski rolling onto the inside edge and your body 'falling' into the turn ... then the ski just take you round. HOWEVER, it's entirely likely that the techie types won't like that explanation at all!!!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
easiski, Thanks - please don't worry! Anyway - even for you! - it would be difficult to diagnose what I'm doing wrong without seeing it. Meanwhile, I found comprex' stair-climbing example an interesting one to bear in mind.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
easiski wrote:
skimottaret, I don't get this - last year Veeeight posted lovely diagrams of the body taking one path and the skis another. Absolutely agree ... Now you're trying to say that the hips should stay square to the skis throughout the turn - sorry - don't agree AT ALL.
Doesn't it vary with the radius of the turn? Short-radius turns, hips are more open as centre of mass takes a more direct route down the fall line. Long-radius turns, hips are more square as centre of mass follows the line of the skis a bit more closely.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
JT wrote:
Liked Guay and Nyberg... the first skier just looked pug-ugly to me..!!!
but, look at what the skis were doing. The question is do we want to ski 'pretty' or ski 'effectively'?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
easiski wrote:
skimottaret, I don't get this - last year Veeeight posted lovely diagrams of the body taking one path and the skis another. Absolutely agree ... Now you're trying to say that the hips should stay square to the skis throughout the turn - sorry - don't agree AT ALL.
Doesn't it vary with the radius of the turn? Short-radius turns, hips are more open as centre of mass takes a more direct route down the fall line. Long-radius turns, hips are more square as centre of mass follows the line of the skis a bit more closely.
thanks rob this is where i was coming from, perhaps my statement to JT was too broad easiski but i did say square to the hill, not square to the skis. I was talking about people who already are able to seperate their upper and lower body and are now trying to stay on the edges and drive the skis harder. The advice I keep hearing when at that level is to reduce the amount of counter and inner leg lead whilst driving the hips forward. Trying to get the hips squarer to the skis to generate more speed and power, sorry didnt mean to imply they should always be square to the skis...
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 13-11-07 14:02; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Inside Leg Extension
Sounds great, anyone know where I can get one cheap?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Spyderman,
A bit of both....but I have to say, I wouldn't want to ski like that. To me, that sort of thing can look like a 10 week skier or 50 week skier. Not a good return AFAIC
I favour a small advance of the inside ski... and this would allow you to flalten the hips in the line, if you wanted to do that...but not to the point of leaving the outside shoulder behind. That again serves no purpose to me.
I wouldn't want to eliminate the small inside lead entirely as it puts my weight on the outside which is where I want it...
Nope, sorry, looked at the video again..and the 1st guy looks crap. I can see the point of substance over style in that context...and I like what all the guys are doing below the waist...but the arms and shoulders reminds me of gorillas rowing....
If you want to go through gates like that and get the times, then fine, but free-skiing...???
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar, ILE only works in fairly long radius turns though.
rob@rar, ILE only works in fairly long radius turns though.
Yes, that's that's what I thought. So for long radius turns best to be fairly square to the skis.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar, I only agree in a very vague sense. For sure you don't want your inside anything a foot ahead of the outside, but IMO you do want it all a little bit in front. Square is square, and I don't agree with it - it's nearly rotation after all!
After all it is free
After all it is free
easiski,
I agree with you.... don't like the look of it ( subjective) and I can see the turn being too open and therefore losing the weight on the dominant outside ski.
Maybe that is the reason the pics are all sking like constipated gorillas to keep their weight in check ..
I guess if you are going to turn like this..and these guys obviuosly see a need to do it...then you need the counterbalance with the upper body.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
easiski,
Quote:
ILE only works in fairly long radius turns though.
surely dependent on the foot speed of the person and the turn radius of the ski? If we were to take some of the cyclists from Apres ski who have cadences over 100rpm and put them on snowblades/Wedzes/miniskis we'd be able to get it down to a couple of meters.
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comprex, I don't know the typical sidecut radius of snowblades, but Wedzes are more than that of a Slalom ski. ILE works fine for me for short radius turns.
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Poster: A snowHead
