 Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, exactly, who are you referring to then.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, I largely agree with the points in your central two paras. However my experience, and that of several other sHs would say your first para is fundamentally wrong - OK it CAN lead to tears, but please credit us with a little intelligence.
What's the major objective here? It's to ski to the best of our ability with the equipment available to us. For the vast majority of us, that includes two legs and two skis. Skiing on one leg is not the major objective (since thankfully ski ballet appears to be dead) - but a tool to help us on the way to achieving that. (In that respect this has crept away from the original question of the thread - it's an exercise used by racers, rather than a "race technique" in itself). If you've already got perfect balance I don't see any point in deliberately skiing one-legged - unless it's to show off  . It's precisely because one-legged skiing is more sensitive to balance and control problems that it takes us out of our comfort zones and forces us to improve our inadequate skills in order to master the exercise - rather than continuing to coast along inside our comfort zone where those skills seem perfectly adequate - that make it so valuable. Clearly from many sH reports, both her own and those of pupils, it's a major tool in easiski's armory, as it is for the majority of instructors/coaches who've had a crack at me - and I've not often been accused of "getting really well balanced" (although I was quite shocked, as no doubt will others, when I was complimented on my recentring, by another coach the other week).
Of course if the exercise is treated as an end in itself, then you can end up doing it badly. Those of us for whom it's worked can point out the good things, and pitfalls we encountered. Professionals like yourself will no doubt know way more about both the good and the bad, and can highlight where we're going astray or reinforce where we're getting it right.
If it's such a bad idea, how about coming up with better ones. But I guess if
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| the "try doing this one, it worked for me" approach passed on from friend to friend (or indeed forum writer to reader) is so wrong |
, I have no idea why you're here at all (as I guess several of us have wondered from time to time), as that and constructive discussion between amateurs and professionals is the lifeblood of a forum like this.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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GrahamN, I'm glad you acknowledge that skiing on one ski is not the final form. To many on the hill, it appears to be. And when they do do it, there are no movement patterns evident in their skiing that one would wish to commit to muscle memory.
I wrote what I wrote from years of having to unpick bad habits gained by skiers perfecting excercises and drills badly. "But I can ski on one ski" they say, as they swish their tails from side to side standing on their heels and pushing.
I also wrote what I wrote from evidence and tears of seeing many many torn MCL's from skiers who persist in using this drill, when their strength and atheletism isn't ready nor built up for one ski skiing.
Pros like easiski work with one ski skiing after she has assessed the student. I doubt she'd prescribe the inside outside edge turns without having seen the skier ski, maybe/perhaps when advising over the internet just stop at traversing with one ski. But the bottom line is that it is a high level drill (in particular one ski off, linked inside outside edge turns), and they way it's being talked about here makes it sound as if every tom dick and harriet should go out and do this as it would immediately improve their skiing regardless.
As to why I'm here, well I guess every internet forum needs a baddie to put the brakes on when things get out of hand and start to self perpetuate bunkum. Without wishing to scaremonger, in this particular case of one ski skiing, it is a high level drill that is more hazrdous than usual, and has led to litigation issues.
But this does draw a very distinct difference between instruction philosophy between Europe, and the Rest of the World. The other nattions (USA, CAN, AUS, NZ, Japan, Korea etc. etc.) have all largely moved away from a movement based instruction philosophy (bend your knees, hold your hand higher, move your x part of your body at y part of the turn etc.) to a skills based system where your assessment & development is based around skills, and needs of the individual skier, not a movement pattern excercise. Someone made a comment about BASI taking on some of the CSIA teaching elements, I don't know the detail of this but I sincerely hope that it is a move away from a movement based philosophy.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 12-09-07 8:31; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, why don't you tell us how to start doing it and how the drill should be developed in order to avoid doing it unhelpfully?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skier88, Because I haven't seen you ski and therefore have no idea what it is I'm assessing, or needs developing.
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skimottaret, I apologise sincerely as several of my recent posts have appeared to be an attack on you, but rest assured that it was not meant to be the case. I don't know what the perfect answer is, I guess it's just trying to find a balance between useful exchange of information on a forum such as this, without straying into a whole online differential diagnosis of a patients illness.
IMV, as an analogy, saying that Ibuprofen can be useful for migranes over the internet is great, going into great detail about mixing other prescriptions or techniques used for bloodletting because it releived my symptoms is not so great, without doing a proper differential into the root cause of the migrane of that particular patient!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 12-09-07 8:22; edited 1 time in total
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veeeight, so there's no right or wrong way to do it? What do you tell someone who's just starting out doing it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I would ask why they were doing it, and what their focus IN that particular drill was.
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veeeight,
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I wrote what I wrote from years of having to unpick bad habits gained by skiers perfecting excercises and drills badly. "But I can ski on one ski" they say, as they swish their tails from side to side standing on their heels and pushing.
I also wrote what I wrote from evidence and tears of seeing many many torn MCL's from skiers who persist in using this drill, when their strength and atheletism isn't ready nor built up for one ski skiing.
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I don't want to critcise you particularly(Usually an opening to critical comments) but do feel the situation may be somewhat different in North America to Europe. You do appear to be criticising people for discussing things at times rather than drawing attention to the need to practice drills safely and appropriately.
In my casual skiing in Europe I have never seen people trying to ski on one ski only, save race training, so I feel it highly unlikely that bad habits have been picked up from European clients through skiing on one leg, or indeed have torn many MCL's.
It sounds like all the people who have been discussing and stating they do this drill on this forum are skiers who have done so at least initially under supervision from either instructors or race trainers. to point out negative points in a drill is helpful and informative but comments can come over sometimes as being critical of people for discussing the drill.
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brian
brian
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veeeight,
I was recommended the one ski "drill" by an instructor as part of a lesson. I'm sure the others (Graham, Rob, skimottaret) who have discussed it here were likewise. In fact, given that they are either taking regular race coaching or working towards basi qualifications I know they were.
... but hey, don't let that get in the way of jumping in two footed with a load of patronising bull ! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| brian wrote: |
| I'm sure the others (Graham, Rob, skimottaret) who have discussed it here were likewise. |
That's true for me. It was suggested by a BASI Trainer as a useful exercise about fore-aft balance and getting the inside ski to engage on its (inside) edge.
I do have sympathy with what veeeight is saying about recommending very specific drills (and one-legged skiing is pretty specific!) without really knowing what skills a skier is trying to develop. I know in my case attempts at one legged skiing see me right back on my heel in an awful fore-aft position, entirely banked with no angulation at all. If I continued to ski on one leg like that it won't improve the skills I'm trying to develop, in fact it will make them worse. So I think some caution is a good thing when recommending drills and exercises.
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veeeight, thanks for the apology, i did feel that anything i have said lately was going to be under attack from you and describing unqualified skiers and in-experienced instructors as "arm chair" experts when discussing things here is patronising and un-helpful when all we are trying to do is debate and learn.
I dont think anyone that posts on technical subjects like racing, instruction or self improvement are trying to over inflate their own abilities or indeed prescribe when having not seen the skier in question. I can recall one thread where an inexperienced mum was concerned about her boy not ploughing correctly and all the comments were prefaced with caution and to seek further instruction.
I do very much agree with you that peeps can sometimes pick up tips/drills and use them in-appropriately when looking for a "magic" solution to improve their skiing when their root problems are wholly different. Certainly seeking professional advice is the correct and proper thing to do BUT on threads where we are talking about racing techniques, off piste skiing or other "higher end" skills the people in the discussion sound to be experienced and able to do some self-diagnosis of their own problems and pick and choose from the info on the forum without hurting themselves.
Is there really that much "bunkum" perpetuated here that you need to be the  policeman?
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, rob@rar. When I started the one-foot stuff, we were doing it purely for lateral balance, and running straight down a gentle slope on a flat ski. In this case it was best to take a fairly narrow posture with the free foot held over the active ski in a sort of javelin turn confguration. You can (but it's not forced by the exercise) also work on body centring and flex/extension of the knee. When trying to use the lateral ski edge (keeping that carving is where the exercise really forces the testing of fore-aft balance) your body needs to be more towards the inside of the turn (to engage the edge), and needs a counterbalance - hence sticking the free foot out to the side the more you angulate. At first there's a huge temptation to lock the knee you're standing on, sit of the heel and hang on for grim death, but keep working on keeping the knee flexed and it eventually comes. At all times feel what the ski's doing and it'll tell you when it's going right or wrong.
veeeight Good post, fair points and I agree that propagation of bunkum is a danger in any discussion between those with only a limited view of what's involved. Which is why it's so important for people like you, easiski, FastMan Martin Bell et. al. to correct us when we get it wrong. It's also why I have been so disappointed when you've seemed to be keener on putting people down rather than engage in constructive criticism. These last three posts sound as if they come from a completely different (and much more welcome) person.
Back to the hazards of the one-foot drill - yes I agree that (certainly when trying linked carves) it's potentially dangerous and a high level drill - but I hope/think that's fairly clear from this discussion (although maybe we could have highlighted that a bit more). There's little point in several of us being here ourselves if we can't discuss such things without locking ourselves in conclave first. It seems to me that the danger element also goes up hugely when you've dispensed with the other ski - it's very useful to have a recovery mechanism of putting a foot down if/when it all goes wrong. I'm pretty happy carving GS-type turns on one ski on reds, provided the other ski is there as a bottle-out mechanism (and it's dead useful for it to be there if you're mixing in some of your favourite 'White Pass' turns ), but am nowhere near reliable enough at present to do it without that safety/comfort blanket, and would not currently try that on anything more than a gentle green.
On a wider point I think that whenever we're considering drills it's vitally important before we start to identify what's the purpose of the drill - what are we trying to achieve, and why it's appropriate or not. For example, I've been told I should probably never do the "tea tray" drill ever again, as already I tend to work too hard at facing down the hill (skiing myth #?) - and so it's an inappropriate exercise for me - and it sounds like slikedges is similar. Hence, whenever having these types of discussion, I try and identify (in descending order of importance)
a) the purpose of the exercise
b) what you should be feeling when it's done right
c) what it may feel like when done wrong.
Unfortunately this does lead to the occasional ( ) rather long post. OK it's best if someone who knows what they should be seeing watches you when you're doing it - but that's not going to be the case always (out-of-lesson practice for example), so you always need a means of self-assessment and criticism.
Care to expand on your 'skills-oriented' methodology (or maybe that's more appropriate in the "Teaching Techniques" thread)? Your comments are a bit too general (for me, at least) to work out how that differs. E.g. I see that your criticism of those "end-stage one-legged skiers" you still framed your criticism in terms of "movement patterns" rather than "application of skills (or lack thereof)" .
See, it is possible to have a reasoned debate on t'internet!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This is a public internet discussion forum for those with an interest in snowsports, not a place where people should come to lord over or be lorded over. Skiing just happens to be one of those things that many non-professionals will know a lot about, but whether professional or non-professional if you know a lot about it, being arrogant about that benefits not the forum, others or oneself.
| veeeight wrote: |
| ... As to why I'm here, well I guess every internet forum needs a baddie to put the brakes on when things get out of hand and start to self perpetuate bunkum. ... |
No. Every internet forum needs a goodie to do that. Every internet forum will also put a brake on baddies when things get out of hand.
Gross generalisations about one-legged skiing from my personal experience which may only apply to me and you can't sue me for:
Weight tends to go back, so start with ankles dorsiflexed and weight well forwards.
Go slow at first and do skidded turns.
When turning on the inside edge try to start to mimic the movement you'd do with that leg had both skis been on.
When turning on the outside edge start by banking.
When a bit more stable try to flex and extend on both turns.
All the time be very conscious of what you're feeling through your foot.
Try to open up the radius, using pressure and edge more and rotation less.
Build up leg strength before really trying to angulate.
Discuss politely.
Edited for clarity.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
This is a public internet discussion forum for those with an interest in snowsports, not a place where people should come to lord over or be lorded over. Skiing just happens to be one of those things that many non-professionals will know a lot about, but whether professional or non-professional if you know a lot about it, being arrogant about that benefits not the forum, others or oneself.
| veeeight wrote: |
| ... As to why I'm here, well I guess every internet forum needs a baddie to put the brakes on when things get out of hand and start to self perpetuate bunkum. ... |
No. Every internet forum needs a goodie to do that. Every internet forum will also put a brake on baddies when things get out of hand.
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As usual you've missed the self effacing irony in that statement? Or could you not quite make it out through the keyboard/monitor?
edit: My account appears to have been hacked earlier this morning............
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 12-09-07 15:05; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, I don't agree at all! When doing all the one leg skiing exercises in traverse the position of the skier is corrected. It is almost impossible to traverse on one foot if your stance/position is very far out of correct. If you tell someone how they have to stand etc you end up (in most cases) with a very stiff, robotic skier - better they come to it without trying by natural means.
BTW do CSIA also not agree with traversing? Obviously you must be able to do this first, before doing turns on one foot (which I thought I'd made clear earlier on). I do find these exercises do it for a very high percentage of skiers. Some of them I would not do with lower level skiers, but might do hopping exercises instead. Uphill foot traversing is quite hard. We are talking about someone going for BASI 3 here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, Don't want to go there again! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, sorry, meant self deprecating. One day I will learn how to speek Eeengesh, I learn it from a boook.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight, don't as usual me. I don't miss much and you don't do self-deprecating much. Your style is changing. The balance should strongly shift in the forum's favour.
BTW hope your money's safe
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slikedges, For your sake I'll get out of bed on the right side tomorrow then. I have no style to change, but yet again, you're reading into personalities through keyboards. As usual. 
Thanks for your patronage, do come again.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
On a wider point I think that whenever we're considering drills it's vitally important before we start to identify what's the purpose of the drill - what are we trying to achieve, and why it's appropriate or not. For example, I've been told I should probably never do the "tea tray" drill ever again, as already I tend to work too hard at facing down the hill (skiing myth #?) - and so it's an inappropriate exercise for me - and it sounds like slikedges is similar. Hence, whenever having these types of discussion, I try and identify (in descending order of importance)
a) the purpose of the exercise
b) what you should be feeling when it's done right
c) what it may feel like when done wrong.
Unfortunately this does lead to the occasional ( ) rather long post. |
so care to comment on a) for say as an example javelin turns? (Also care to describe the "how to" of same)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| so care to comment on a) for say as an example javelin turns? (Also care to describe the "how to" of same) |
Sorry - never (knowingly) done one so outside my experience (but it would appear not outside yours). That reference was not suggesting javelin turns as an exercise - but as reference for where to hold the skis in the most basic version of a one-foot exercise (i.e. holding the tip of the free ski in the air directly above or crossed over that of the running ski). It was how it was first described to me, and appears to be a common description, so I passed it on as something many may be familiar with. I suspect you're in a way better position than me to comment on the turn itself, it's application, benefits and pitfalls.
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Sorry GrahamN, was not trying to pick on the details... Just picked on that as your example....
It is one exercise I have done in a couple of ways and with various different purposes....Hence was trying to point out that the purpose of an exercise depends on the needs of the person doing it ... most exercises achieve a few outcomes... some times we need one outcome, other times another need is served...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, so that sort of reinforces my point. If the same (or virtually the same) exercise can achieve multiple outcomes, it's even more important to know what outcome you're trying to achieve - then you can concentrate on that aspect. So, how about giving us that example in its different flavours? Here's a slightly fuller version of the exercise I was talking about above.
(And having checked up on what a javelin turn actually is, it would seem I probably have done them 'en passant' but as a sort of byproduct of something else).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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GrahamN, exactly....hence why I mentioned it...
I'm not brilliant on getting this right, I'll grab Fastman as a more likely suspect unless Veeeight is inclined to volunteer 
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I'm too busy at the other place debating what constitutes a carved turn, but I'll be sitting on the sidelines with my sniper rifle at the ready
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You know it makes sense.
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I like javelin turns as an exercise but they seem a bit dangerous and not sure they do thatttt much for balance....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
| I'm too busy at the other place debating what constitutes a carved turn, |
We're going to have to agree to differ on this one!
Perhaps it's because I come from a ski-racing background, whereas you come from an ski instructing background. Ski instructional bodies only started looking seriously at carving techniques relatively recently (after the arrival of "shaped skis" in 1997), whereas for racers it has been a familiar concept for much longer.
For us racers, a carved turn is when the tail follows the tip, and you leave the distinctive, narrow, curved "trenches" in the snow. I suspect that this is also what most members of the public understand under the concept of a carved turn. A turn is either carved or not. There is no "partially carved" turn, just like you cannot be "slightly pregnant"!
If you ski instructors want to come in and invent a term that can exist as a contrast to "skidded", may I suggest that you use a word like "edged", rather than coming in and incorrectly hijacking the ski-racing term "carved". To start talking about "carved" turns in a mogul zipperline, when these are clearly short pivoted turns with a certain "edging" component, is merely going to confuse the skiing public and muddy the waters.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Martin Bell, I've heard the word "skarved" used, I guess meaning a pressured edge with steered skid?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Martin Bell, I'm with you..... carved is not "partial".... None of my instructors at home would claim otherwise...
Edged sounds like a much better term for their "scarved" or whatever... it just is not carved...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Martin Bell, Where do you draw the line though?
Scenario1: Skier is park and riding, leaves 2 pencil thin RR tracks in the snow = Carved
Scenario 2: Skier has both skis on edge, and has an element of steering (rotary) input - but is still leaving RR tracks, slightly thicker, tail is still following tip, but ski is bending more, so radius is decreased. In my book it's still = Carved
I tend to distinguish them by calling a clean carve, pure carve, clean arcs, edge locked etc. At worst, railling.
And as you well know the USSA definition of "carving" includes a steered component.
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USSA manual came today. on page 43 I read:
"Carving by definition for the USST is a form of steering or turning on a semi-engaged edge. The National team staff makes a distinction between carving and arcing, which is a pure carved turn."
"Arcing is a turn on a completely engaged edge, where the tail follows the tip throughout the turn radius. In general terms, it is the fastest and most efficient turn possible" |
I'm all in favour of ending that "what is carving" debate, by asking instead "is there ski performance evident - yes or no".
PS. Thread hijack.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Martin Bell, , on the carving thing,,, well said. I'm with you!!
One footed skiing is a great skill to aspire to. I think I understand what veeeight is trying to get at. Approached as a single exercise to be accomplished in any manner possible ( just to say one can do it) can result in the adoption and internalization of some inefficient execution patterns. There's a progression of basic skill/balance development drills which the sequential mastering of can serve to overcome that risk. easiski seems to hint at this too in her focus on starting in a traverse. I'll be touching on my system for doing it in the "one trick pony" thread soon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have always thought carving was a pure turn along the edge with no breakaway or wash. Anything else is varying degrees of a skid to me. This is why I don't always go along with the concept when I hear people talking about it as I don't see too many doing it. By the same token, I don't see a great many people needing to have to execute it properly, it is just another of those turns in your box of tricks. Good fun for hooning around on the right skis tho'
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I've always understood railing as riding on edges on sidecut with little active pressure and carving as riding on edges with active pressure so ski is bent more into reverse camber, both with sufficiently little skid to leave tramlines. Isn't this right?
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When I've been skiing GS I found (and was told) that if I try to force the ski too much into a tight carve it chatters away and immediately loses time. To tighten the turn I was told to angulate more as this was a much cleaner arc and therefore much quicker. What is the best way to tighten a purely carved (arced) turn?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges,
My understanding is:
CARVING is an outcome that leaves clean lines in the snow where the tail follows the tip. A carved turn can be influenced by the other steering elements and therefore made tighter or longer (any combination).
Railing is a DRILL that helps skiers feel the effects of using the skis on the edges. However, it can be rather 1 dimensional and is only part of the skill used to CARVE.
CARVING is a more skilful blending of the steering elements to reach many different out comes that are still CARVED as the skier copes with external influences (speed, terrain changes, reactive direction changes and so on)
Carving is an out put, result, of effective and skilful reactive inputs.
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rob@rar, The two elements, edging, and pressure control, are tightly linked. So to tighten an arc in a clean carve, you can do one or both of those things (more pressure, more edge).
However, you can't "apply" more pressure (pressure is a resultant force), you can resist more to *build* more pressure, but under many circumstances this increase in pressure will cause the ski to break away. So the other viable alternative is to increase the edge angle, which in turn will increase the pressure, which in turn will bend the ski more, resulting in a tighter arc 
This concept of "apply pressure" is one of those things I've been meaning to address in a skiing myth thread, but haven't got around to it. It does kinda do my nut in slightly when I hear instructors/coaches tell people to "apply pressure early in the turn".
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FAQ
