 Poster: A snowHead
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| phil_w wrote: |
| I ride a lot with groups of various abilities, and it's obvious that skilled folk (who carve) get much less tired than those using less efficient turns. |
But aren't the skilled folk just more efficient whatever they ski and therefore get less tired.
As I think has been ascertained and we all agree you can't carve most of the time - I don't know let's say you are carving 10% of the time - so it's not going to be carving that is tiring you out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This "more efficient" argument is yet another reason why I seek to avoid carving!
At my age I need all the exercise I can get - and to burn as many calories as possible!! Efficiency would be enemy of this 
As would being too aerodynamic - so like to ski with a large rucksack and jacket open catching the wind.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| When you are skidding turns you are using energy to move the ski sideways through and across the snow, which causes friction. It takes energy to resist the friction. When carving, the ski is always moving forwards, precisely along its long access, which causes much less friction. Added to which, when the ski is moving forwards, the ski curve of the ski tips cause it to rise above the snow, which takes much less force to maintain than when it is moving sideways. As an added benefit it is quicker, and you are also in more control. |
OK, I can see that. So given the additional energy it takes to put your body into a carving position and the change in loads as a result, how does that compare to parallel in terms of energy usage. Taking the different requirements into account, are you still using less overall energy?
One thing that did hit me regarding your comment was the fact that skiiers who carve are generally fitter, so it's very difficult to compare end-ofday fatigue. I don't know if that's a true statement to be honest, but you could certainly make the argument.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| As an added benefit it is quicker, and you are also in more control. |
as a result of the less friction on the base of the ski one goes quicker meaning more (not sure if this word is correct) centrifugal forces the skier has to brace against when turning.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Layne wrote: |
As I think has been ascertained and we all agree you can't carve most of the time - I don't know let's say you are carving 10% of the time - so it's not going to be carving that is tiring you out. |
I’d say 30 to 50 percent of the time. Cat tracks, blues, most reds when they’re not too busy. Even on busy reds though, it’s short radius turns to control speed, then carving as soon as I see a gap.
In terms of efficiency, it’s a similar (but not as big) step change to going from snowplough to skidded parallels. Amplified a huge amount once the snow is soft..
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| Baron von chippy wrote: |
| as a result of the less friction on the base of the ski one goes quicker meaning more (not sure if this word is correct) centrifugal forces the skier has to brace against when turning. |
I'd see it the other way round. You have more edge grip, so you're more in control, so you able to go quicker. Sementics maybe, important too.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Amplified a huge amount once the snow is soft.. |
Amplified in what way Kramer, more difficult of more efficient in soft snow?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ratkinsonuk wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
| When you are skidding turns you are using energy to move the ski sideways through and across the snow, which causes friction. It takes energy to resist the friction. When carving, the ski is always moving forwards, precisely along its long access, which causes much less friction. Added to which, when the ski is moving forwards, the ski curve of the ski tips cause it to rise above the snow, which takes much less force to maintain than when it is moving sideways. As an added benefit it is quicker, and you are also in more control. |
OK, I can see that. So given the additional energy it takes to put your body into a carving position and the change in loads as a result, how does that compare to parallel in terms of energy usage. |
It doesn't take additional energy to put your body in a carving position, if anything it takes less, because you're putting your weight into the tips of your skis and so skeletal stacking is working in your favour. The loads through your legs are much less.
| Quote: |
| Taking the different requirements into account, are you still using less overall energy? |
Yes.
| Quote: |
| One thing that did hit me regarding your comment was the fact that skiiers who carve are generally fitter, so it's very difficult to compare end-ofday fatigue. I don't know if that's a true statement to be honest, but you could certainly make the argument. |
I didn't say that, someone else must have.
I know for myself how much easier I'm finding it when I'm carving, which is why I try and do it as much as possible. As soon as I'm in a situation where I'm not carving, I can feel my quads starting to work more and to burn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| I didn't say that, someone else must have. |
Sorry, yes. Was from Phil's reply.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Baron von chippy wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
| As an added benefit it is quicker, and you are also in more control. |
as a result of the less friction on the base of the ski one goes quicker meaning more (not sure if this word is correct) centrifugal forces the skier has to brace against when turning. |
Not compared to the forces of friction that are being exerted on the ski when skidding. Also remember that to carve, your weight needs to be forward (unless you're a ski racer, but that's a whole different subject - they do wrong things to make themselves go faster still), and so your skeleton is holding you up, not your quadriceps.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| I’d say 30 to 50 percent of the time. |
Having said that, there's selection bias here. Because I can carve, and it's on terrain that my ski buddies like to ski on, I tend to select runs that I can carve on. These days I just don't get the chance to ski more technical terrain as much as I used to.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Also remember that to carve, your weight needs to be forward (unless you're a ski racer, but that's a whole different subject - they do wrong things to make themselves go faster still), and so your skeleton is holding you up, not your quadriceps. |
Is moving weight forward to allow your kness and ankles the room to rotate, or something to do with getting the weight/force into the ski?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ratkinsonuk wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
| Also remember that to carve, your weight needs to be forward (unless you're a ski racer, but that's a whole different subject - they do wrong things to make themselves go faster still), and so your skeleton is holding you up, not your quadriceps. |
Is moving weight forward to allow your kness and ankles the room to rotate, or something to do with getting the weight/force into the ski? |
Flexing the ankle forward so that your shin pressures the front of the boot, and that transfers the weight to the shovel of the ski. In actual fact you end up centred over the ski, but it feels like you're pressing on the front. The more you flex the ankle, the more you can then bend your knee to lower your centre of gravity and allow for distance discrepancies between each leg.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ratkinsonuk wrote: |
| Turning a carve requires the ski to be on it's side and bent into an arc. That forces the edge to follow the skis natural arc. |
Yes, and to follow up on this, the greater that the ski is angled over, the more it is bent and the tighter the turn.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| In actual fact you end up centred over the ski, but it feels like you're pressing on the front. |
I'm pretty sure the 'Mechanics of Sport' site agrees with you 
"If you look at a pair of skis carefully you will notice that the bindings are set back from the middle, making it necessary for you to lean forward to get your weight to the middle of the ski. The bindings are set back a bit on the ski because when you are leaning forwards pushing on the front of the ski boots, it transmits your inputs to the ski better, and makes you bend your knees giving you a stronger more adaptable stance. If your weight is too far back, the front of the skis will not be pushing into the snow, which means that the front of the skis can not give you any control, as they can not push against anything."
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For those that were asking earlier, apparently according to this week’s internet, “20 years” is what allows you to tell a pro how to get their biomechanics right 
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@Kramer, These last few posts of yours have saved me writing pretty much the same, so thanks, but FWIW I agree with everything I've read in them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There is a non carving solution to slushy/soft bumps - get a nice rockered ski and surf em like you just don't care.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| There is a non carving solution to slushy/soft bumps - get a nice rockered ski and surf em like you just don't care. |
Yes, mahoosive skis float over them quite nicely too.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| @Kramer, These last few posts of yours have saved me writing pretty much the same, so thanks, but FWIW I agree with everything I've read in them. |
Thank you. Nice to know that I’ve not lost it now that I’m a one week a year intermediate. 
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You know it makes sense.
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@frejul, the point about carving for tourists like us is that it’s a whole lot of fun
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| @frejul, the point about carving for tourists like us is that it’s a whole lot of fun |
It is, especially in Spring conditions.
It also helps when it’s busy. On busy pistes most people stay away from the edges, because there’s a build up of lumps of snow there which makes it hard and tiring to ski if you’re skidding your turns. If you’re carving you can zip down it no problem and get past any traffic.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
When you are skidding turns you are using energy to move the ski sideways through and across the snow, which causes friction. It takes energy to resist the friction. When carving, the ski is always moving forwards, precisely along its long access, which causes much less friction. Added to which, when the ski is moving forwards, the ski curve of the ski tips cause it to rise above the snow, which takes much less force to maintain than when it is moving sideways. As an added benefit it is quicker, and you are also in more control. |
Other than perhaps in slush or crud this is mostly bo11ox. I'm getting the feeling that you're a theoretical skier.
I'm bored and gone. Have fun.  |
It’s funny, I’ve skied with @rob@rar, and I know that he can carve, and I’m sure that he will vouch that I can carve, as I’m sure a few other snowHeads will as well. And @Chaletbeauroc seems to think that what I’m saying makes sense too.
And yet you, who claims that he can carve, are the one who disagrees with all of us, and I have to say your explanations don’t make much sense.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Kramer wrote: |
And yet you, who claims that he can carve, are the one who disagrees with all of us, and I have to say your explanations don’t make much sense. |
I don't disagree with all of anything or anyone and my explanations are brief make sense, we just don't agree. I am however, struggling to make sense of your long winded theories regarding the mechanics of skiing and have concluded that they're mostly guff.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kramer wrote: |
It’s funny, I’ve skied with @rob@rar, . |
Forum buddies backing each other up. It's as old as the internet.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Mollerski,
Wrong choice of word. I think boorish is the one you were looking for.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@Mollerski,
Wrong choice of word. I think boorish is the one you were looking for. |
Crack on with the insults. The pack will be along soon to give you a belly rub and the dopamine hit that you crave.
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It’s amazing how much so called advice and expertise I and others have been offered on how to ski and teach. Mostly from those who clearly can’t ski very well and don’t have any idea how to teach. If you think you have a better understanding of the movements, forces and bio-dynamics than a well respected L3 instructor then the issue is one of self-delusion for which there is no known cure.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@zikomo, never underestimate bull$hitters on the internet.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| @zikomo, never underestimate bull$hitters on the internet. |
High volume forum users such as yourself, whom never go away and consider their opinion on so many topics valid are firmly in the 'have a word..' bracket. You're nudging towards 18000 absolute pearls now.
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