 Poster: A snowHead
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| PG wrote: |
IncogSkiSno, DM'll have his fluorescent green ski pants soon  |
But no green jacket? Is the man afraid of a bit o' colour?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm sure somebody told me recently that the pistes in France were graded by people in Paris, from maps! Did I dream this?? 
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 28-03-06 20:49; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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geri, perhaps if you tell us what else you dream about, we might be able to discern a pattern. Allocation of three-letter airport codes perhaps? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
Cathy Coins, personally I read no elitism or intolerance into the above ...
All that's been suggested is that skiers keep to runs that are well within their ability to ski, before moving on. That they take lessons. That beginners learn on the beginner (free) slopes that are provided for that purpose.
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To be honest, that wasn't all that was suggested, ise appeared to suggest that anyone that was still unconfident on blue slopes after 3-4 weeks no longer had any right to use the mountain - that we could do with rather less of them. It had nothing to do with them moving onto other more difficult slopes - and nothing to do with danger either. The context of the issue was on the question of inclusivity and the suggestion that he appeared to be making was that these people should be excluded from the mountain for being incompetent.
This is what struck me as elitism.
That may not be what ise actually meant, but he then appeared to reinforce it by talking about his enjoyment being affected by their presence on the mountain  . |
I suggest you indulge in rather less selective reading and quoting then.
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| ise wrote: |
| We could do with rather less people who either fall into the "I do blacks after a weeks skiing" or 3 or 4 week skiers who can't tackle a blue run with any confidence. |
I'd best give up then - I still quite regularly (say one or two runs a trip) find blue runs I don't enjoy after, hmm, let me see, 15 weeks on snow plus 10 years dry slope skiing....It's not about being able to get down (in all honesty I can probably get down 99% of pistes of all colours) it's about being comfortable and competent doing so.
I don't think all runs marked as 'easy' (blue) really are and I think they could do with either using green more widely or having a new grade to seperate our the truely easy - the number of posts we get on here for recommendations for nervous skis surely testifies to the demand?
aj xx
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| PG wrote: |
| Once those basics are properly acquired, it's a rare blue that would cause a skier any problems |
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I'm not sure that is true, and that is my point! If ALL blues really were safely and enjoyably wiithin the reach of the average pupil after 10-15 half day tuition (2-3 weeks) then I would say yep all good - but they aren't. Some are more than doable and some are steep/narrow/busy enough to be either postively dangerous, or very stressful and there is no way to tell which it is without skiing it. It's the inconsistency that leads to problems - imo 'blue' covers too wide a range of runs, that's all I'm saying.
Everyone gets to a point where they want a little freedom to start to explore (even if they are also still taking lessons) and I think blue ('easy') is supposed to denote that, but the inconsistencies in application mean it doesn't.
aj xx
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ajhainey wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| Once those basics are properly acquired, it's a rare blue that would cause a skier any problems |
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I'm not sure that is true, and that is my point! If ALL blues really were safely and enjoyably wiithin the reach of the average pupil after 10-15 half day tuition (2-3 weeks) then I would say yep all good - but they aren't. |
They are, sorry if that's not what you want to hear but it's true.
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I own an appartment in a ski station and rarely venture off blues sometimes I get really carried away and attempt a Red. Do I need lessons or should I not be allowed to ski on a red or even have the temerity to own an appartment in a ski station.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| I own an appartment in a ski station and rarely venture off blues sometimes I get really carried away and attempt a Red. Do I need lessons or should I not be allowed to ski on a red or even have the temerity to own an appartment in a ski station. |
It can't be any fun, most of the resort is presumably off limits to you then?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ise, Nah, he's going kayaking on his next visit 
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| easiski wrote: |
| The point is not, people learning to ski, but people who think they can ski, flying everywhere out of control (twisting their skis from one side to the other and side slipping violenty) - these are the people impinging on everyone's enjoyment ( and possibly injuring someone). These are often the people who descend (I don't say ski) blacks and then spend all night boasting about it in the pub. This is not the same thing as being chuffed to have done your first black - these people do it daily, and everyone below them on the mountain is in danger. They often took 1 week's group lessons and have never done anything since - after all - they learned to ski!!! |
oh yeah - I learnt about these types the hard way.....
We had a guy staying in the lodge - layed into me every night because I take lessons - spent every evening telling everybody loudly how you cannot learn to ski by having lessons and how he had never had any.... He was a ski god (after all he told us all so) ... he could ski the whole mountain and do it fast .....
One afternoon I returned to find his poor wife (who he had taught to ski) bundled up with leg in plaster..... on enquiry it seemed she had slipped on the blue run which had been hard-packed in the morning.... The expert returned at this point and started to insist that the run should have been be closed because it was unsafe.... He said that he had not been able to ski it until after 1030am because it was sooooooo hard and you could not edge.....
At which point silly me pipes up "but I skied it all morning until just after 1030 when we left to ski elsewhere" .... when he discovered I was skiing it from 830am he got all "hmmmmpphh"y ... as he was launching into how it was impossible and HOW was I doing it a poor guy (who had slipped leaving pub on first night and was confined to couch listening to this guy every afternoon) said very quietly to me "It is called technique isn't it?" and then "It is what she learns in those lessons".... at least we had peace and quiet that night!
I discovered that I should simply ignore the people that think I should not take lessons or practice technical skills or such.... I enjoy my skiing - they only try to ruin my enjoyment because they do not enjoy that aspect of skiing.... sometimes I forget this and let them get to me.... then I remember this guy!
eng_ch (et al) don't let the turkeys get you down - just keep skiing your way
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You know it makes sense.
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boredsurfin, to be honest, my understanding of the way this skiing thing works is that you are only allowed on blues for a maximum of 3 or 4 weeks, after that you have to do a red or you won't be allowed back on the mountain at all, so just keep throwing the odd one in and keep a record in case people ask you about it
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ray Zorro, I think I probably do a Red once every cuople of visits so I'am probably OK. The white water Kyaking takes up some of the slack.
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Poster: A snowHead
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PG,
| Quote: |
Still don't see what the difference is with the current set-up? We already have nursery, or beginner slopes in a lot of resorts, at village level - free too. They're described as such in the literature, detailed on the websites.
I thought people were asking for greens through the domains, away from the resort villages - which in a lot of cases wouldn't be possible because of the topography. Or it would involve return to the resort by lift.
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I have not skied Les Arcs for a while other than a return trip on the Vanoise express so cannot comment on the local situation, but in my experience many resorts nursery resort level slopes become unpleasantly slushy for beginners late afternoon, as the season progresses. A trip up the mountain to higher easy slopes would be advantageous to learning.
I think labelling such sloopes green, pink or whatever may be helpful and aid communication for instructors when suggesting where to ski after lessons. I would certainly agree that beginners and near beginners may need to take the lift back down to resort level and creating a green run in unsuitable topography as in the run to La Daille in Val d'Isere is stupid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The answer to the intial question IMV...is ski the mountain....as is.....it was there way before you....
The alpes ain't America...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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T Bar, the slopes have been fine up until now, at resort level. Heading up towards April slush is returning - one of the hazards of spring skiing.
Feeding the people back down the mountain from greens, or nursery slopes at altitude, is fine in principle. In reality though in the absence of cable cars or gondolas it would slow the lifts so just not practical in most cases. Still it's a thought - there are places, such as at the top of the Transarc gondolas, where a small beginners area could be set aside, possibly. Not a huge amount of room though with two high traffic lifts arriving there.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| IncogSkiSno wrote: |
| ise, Nah, he's going kayaking on his next visit |
presumably only round the swimming pool in case it turns out to be too hard.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah, you can drown in that water you know perhaps best left to the pro's as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I see that ' ise' is in good form again with his opinionated, arogant, insulting and I'm always right attitude.
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| chris wrote: |
| I see that ' ise' is in good form again with his opinionated, arogant, insulting and I'm always right attitude. |
quite charming 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| Yeah, you can drown in that water you know perhaps best left to the pro's as well. |
If you're not going to contribute sensibly then maybe you shouldn't bother?
| boredsurfin wrote: |
| I own an appartment in a ski station and rarely venture off blues sometimes I get really carried away and attempt a Red. Do I need lessons or should I not be allowed to ski on a red or even have the temerity to own an appartment in a ski station. |
| boredsurfin wrote: |
| BUT, one of the guys I go skiing with has skiied since he was 5 years old, has completed various Ski tours over the Alps, Has led various ski groups on holidays and is a good all round skier. I have followed him down 2 of 'the top 10 most difficult pistes in the Alps' with complete confidence in his knowledge of my abilities and therefore my ability to complete the run safely under his guidance and I have enjoyed the challenge and experience (after all isn't that why we ski?) |
Your contributions in this thread are just abuse and digs aimed at me and other, some of the other posters shouldn't have daft enough to jump in either.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ajhainey wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| Once those basics are properly acquired, it's a rare blue that would cause a skier any problems |
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I'm not sure that is true, and that is my point! If ALL blues really were safely and enjoyably wiithin the reach of the average pupil after 10-15 half day tuition (2-3 weeks) then I would say yep all good - but they aren't. Some are more than doable and some are steep/narrow/busy enough to be either postively dangerous, or very stressful and there is no way to tell which it is without skiing it. It's the inconsistency that leads to problems - imo 'blue' covers too wide a range of runs, that's all I'm saying.
Everyone gets to a point where they want a little freedom to start to explore (even if they are also still taking lessons) and I think blue ('easy') is supposed to denote that, but the inconsistencies in application mean it doesn't.
aj xx |
Such as piste 21 I think it is called, near Kleinne Scheidegg (please excuse the spelling), which is a nice blue most of the way, apart from one pitch.
I suppose it depends on how you define "the basics" that PG mentions. If they include putting in GS turns on black runs, then yes, I would agree that very few pisted blues will cause problems. If the basics are about making linked turns on normal blue runs, then no, I disagree.
And that's before we mention un-pisted blues and blue mogul fields...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ise wrote: |
| ajhainey wrote: |
the number of posts we get on here for recommendations for nervous skis surely testifies to the demand?
aj xx |
No one, I imagine, disputes there's a demand, it's just a question if it's a good thing  |
How can accurate information be a bad thing? How can it be a bad thing for run marking to be driven by the actual nature of the run instead of marketing demands? I know it's a radical idea It's surely not beyond the wit of mankind to slap a bit of extra red paint on the blue poles and have a blue and red dotted line on the piste map that's being reprinted anyway? Or do you *want* lower level skiers to end up places they shouldn't be because there's no way of telling, without local knowledge, which blues are easy and which are borderline red?
| Quote: |
| The answer's clear to me; stop being a nervous skier It can't be any fun, if the person doesn't like skiing then stop skiing, or apply themself a bit more and overcome that barrier. |
If it was as easy as deciding not to be nervous, there wouldn't be any nervous skiers, would there? You can still enjoy skiing even if particular conditions or gradients make you nervous.
Just an observation but I notice that everyone on this thread who is suggesting there is nothing wrong with the current piste marking system is a male advanced-expert skier. With a few notable exceptions, those suggesting that a bit more clarity wouldn't go amiss are female intermediate-advanced skiers and a ski professional. Is this a coincidence? To those of you who are saying there's nothing wrong, can you honestly, hand on heart, say you have never ever experienced trepidation on skis? That you have never ever in your lives accidentally found yourselves on a piste that was pushing your confort zone and ability level to straining point?
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You know it makes sense.
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eng_ch, I'm not female or a ski pro, but I do believe there is room for more clarity (hence my posts about "easiest way down", separate beginner areas, and increased markings)
I think Deer Valley has, from memory:
Green
Blue
Double Blue
Blue Black (roughly a red)
Black
Double Black
As well as that, they have specific beginner areas, slow ski zones, and runs which are marked as "easiest way down" (normally greens and blues)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So much of this thread generalises about why different people ski, what different people enjoy, and how different people learn and seem to forget that most people are .... different.
Most people on here ski for different reasons - some more for the technical aspects of skiing itself, some for the speed or adrenalain ... and others more for the general enjoyment of being able to travel through high snowy mountain scenery.
Similarly, some people are only fair weather skiers enjoying going out in nice weather for a variety of reasons from feeling the cold particularly badly - to being scared in low visibility which may even be eyesight related! Some people will be happy not pushing themselves and they should be allowed to enjoy nothing more than a moderate Red after 10 weeks skiing (Which is the point of the discussion on grading - expectation management!). Others will want to push the envelope a bit - and as long as they are not endangering me, then that is fine.
Finally, most people learn differently. I learn most by 'understanding' the whys and hows - hence videos/DVD and books are actually the best way for me to learn where I can study something over and over (slowed down) and understand why things are happening the way they are. Others will learn best by following others example - others by verbal descriptions etc. Confidence plays a big part here, so to asume that somebody who has perfect technique on a blue will ski a red fine is nonsense, because it totally ignores the fact that the first time somebody does it they will be experiencing greater forces, different angulations - and different perceptions of fear, doubt, confidence etc - i.e. a first time!!!
Personally, I think all of the above should be well welcomed on the mountain regardless ...
However, the overiding issue is whether they are trying to stay under control or endangering me or others (... and themselves if they stopped to think about it!).
Personally, I would rather share steeper slopes with timid skiers, who are maybe out of their depth, but are using everything they have learned to stay under control and keep their speed down and the consequences to me of a fall are minimal - than over confident good skiers who belt it down slopes where they are in control 95% of the time, but if they hit unexpected harder snow, a death cookie etc. and fell, they are sure as hell going to cause havoc!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| To those of you who are saying there's nothing wrong, can you honestly, hand on heart, say you have never ever experienced trepidation on skis? That you have never ever in your lives accidentally found yourselves on a piste that was pushing your confort zone and ability level to straining point? |
Isn't that being alive? I'm with my cat on this one, a bit of excitement and adrenaline are what life's about surely?
I think you've hit the heart of it there, complete knowledge of a run before starting might eliminate those feelings. But, again, is that a good thing?
That we might eliminate that occasional trepidation or never push our comfort zone and ability level to straining point sounds to me like a poor substitute for a life in general and skiing in particular. There's no need to base jump out the lift onto a 65' slope and do a few cliff jumps but some excitiment is good surely?
And the last time I pushed comfort zone and ability level to straining point? Last time I went skiing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ise wrote: |
Isn't that being alive? I'm with my cat on this one, a bit of excitement and adrenaline are what life's about surely?
I think you've hit the heart of it there, complete knowledge of a run before starting might eliminate those feelings. But, again, is that a good thing?
That we might eliminate that occasional trepidation or never push our comfort zone and ability level to straining point sounds to me like a poor substitute for a life in general and skiing in particular. There's no need to base jump out the lift onto a 65' slope and do a few cliff jumps but some excitiment is good surely? |
Not all of us are adrenaline junkies, you know Seriously, many people like to extend skills by gradually extending their comfort zone, crossing the line with baby steps and then becoming familiar with that area such that it is brought into their comfort zone - not by smashing the comfort zone to smithereens.
Some people think it's good to learn to swim by jumping straight in the deep end, others prefer to learn by gradually reducing the amount of their foot that touches the floor of the pool. But if you don't actually mark which is the deep end, you take that choice and responsibility away.
Obviously there's such a thing as information overload, but if you want people to take responsibility for themselves and go only where their ability allows them, then it's rather unfair to deprive them of the information to make that judgement. Just because you may not need that information, doesn't mean others might not benefit greatly from it.
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| Quote: |
eng_ch,
Just an observation but I notice that everyone on this thread who is suggesting there is nothing wrong with the current piste marking system is a male advanced-expert skier. With a few notable exceptions, those suggesting that a bit more clarity wouldn't go amiss are female intermediate-advanced skiers and a ski professional. Is this a coincidence?
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To be honest, and I haven't reread every post again, I think everyone would agree with a bit more clarity being desirable, except ise and PG. But I think that PG has misunderstood to think that the argument for regrading means reshaping the slopes on the mountain, whereas the argument here (as I read it) has always been a clearer definition of the existing slopes.
I think that ise stands alone in desiring cautious/non-progresive skiers off the mountain .
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| ise wrote: |
| ajhainey wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| Once those basics are properly acquired, it's a rare blue that would cause a skier any problems |
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I'm not sure that is true, and that is my point! If ALL blues really were safely and enjoyably wiithin the reach of the average pupil after 10-15 half day tuition (2-3 weeks) then I would say yep all good - but they aren't. |
They are, sorry if that's not what you want to hear but it's true. |
When was the last time you skied with beginners? In the last 6 years I have (re) learnt to ski myself plus watched 15 of my friends do the same. Only six of those people possesed the 'gung-ho' attitude to enjoy runs where they are not strictly in control or skiing smoothly, i.e able to ski all blues within 2 weeks of starting, five would actively avoid pushing themselves like that and prefer to do the 'slow and steady improvement within your comfort zone', the rest prefer to CHOOSE when they might encounter testing slopes.
Personally I find the first (those who found all blue runs 'great' after a couple of weeks and have no fear) to be the most disturbing - they are often on the egde of their control, skiing too fast and with too little concern given to the possible actions of other slope users. I don't think they are 'average' either given my sample....
aj xx
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
I think that ise stands alone in desiring cautious/non-progresive skiers off the mountain . |
I simply suggested that if people are manifestly not enjoying it they might consider doing something else. We're not short of skiers, having more people on the slopes patently doesn't improve the experience for anyone, so we need no measures whatsoever to make it easier or more accessible.
PG's not misunderstood at all, in fact you have, the inevitable consequences of a ski station attempting to quantify every micro risk or challenge on every run will them be them accepting responsibility for those descriptions, the inevitable consequence of that will the elimination of some or all of those risks.
So, yes, I do think that anyone that thinks slopes can be sanitised to this degree doesn't appreciate the fundamental nature of the sport they're engaged in and instead of expecting it to be altered might be better off looking for a sport that eliminates risk if that's not an oxymoron.
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FWIW, I'm not sure that more clarity can be achieved, whether or not it's desirable. There are so many variables, not the least of which is people's perception of what a particular colour run should be like. In 25 years of (mainly incompetent) skiing I have occasionally been surprised by a grading but never personally seriously misled. I think that skiing on a surprisingly hard run for its grade is part of the learning process, as is skiing on a particularly easy one.
Although one can usually tell from the piste map, a clear warning that a run may involve a fair bit of skating/poling would be useful (especially to boarders, I imagine). I can think of at least one long French blue which looked OK on the map but seemed to spend more time going up than down (and no, I wasn't skiing it in the wrong direction).
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FAQ
