Self-Servicing Skis - Is it worth doing?

A snowHead

EVERY time i read this title I imagine skis that sharpen their own edges.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Layne, Of course you can change the base angle! Whatever makes you think it is not recommended?

It is simple to go higher...e.g Factory at 0.5 and change to 0.75
It is more complicated to go the other way as you will have to do a base grind first, but not that big a deal for any good ski shop.

Different people prefer different angles...I like 0.25 the best, I don't mind 0.5 on the base, but for me 1 degree is too slow to edge.

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I have just been down to Snow and Rock, Brighton, and looked at their whole stock of brand new skis. Atomic, Salomon, Rossignol, etc, up to 700 quid (without bindings).

None of them have a bottom bevel, and their "ski expert" said this is never done, and if you see it it is just due to wear.

All had the side bevel, as discussed above.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@peter_h, I really doubt that Laughing

Most firms set the base angle to 1 degree, but as said, this is not usually that accurate. I do all my own skis at 87/1 but I have tried a 0.75 base angle, at my level and on the varied slopes I ski on the difference is negligible in turn initiation.

I live pretty close to the Atomic factory, talk equipment to lots of folk and I'd trust the opinions of the local race ski techs over someone from a UK branch store.

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I looked at each of the skis myself, with reading glasses, and none had a bottom bevel.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@peter_h, Oh, must be right then.

Try running a marker pen over the base edge then take a 1000 grit file and see which angle guide scrapes it off in a uniform way.

After all it is free

If you could see a 1 degree angle on a couple of mm of metal you would be like Superman wink

@Scarpa,

Nobody* puts a 0 deg angle on the base. It would catch before you’d even thought about turning and you would spend the day on your face. You might get 0.5 deg, but in general most manufacturers use 1 deg. And no, you can’t really see it without a true bar or a metal ruler across it.

*nobody with any sense, anyway.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I reckon this whole bevel business is snake oil. After all, people have been skiing on rectangular-slab wooden skis since for ever.

I also cannot believe that such a tiny effect can be detected by the skier, with say 50-80kg pressing down onto the ski, and with relatively soft snow underneath.

Is there any research showing that someone can detect it (I mean a double blind study)?

The problem with the internet is that once somebody puts up a diagram like that, every other ski website will copy it, and it acquires a life of its own.

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@peter_h, Is that the same snake oil you use to wax your skis skis every 10 weeks? wink

Seriously, if you tune your own skis you really can detect differences, plus I know racers who do know what they are talking about when it comes down to different tunes for specific conditions. On a totally flat ski as the ski became flat to the ground mid transition the edge could catch in either direction. Try schussing on such a ski and you would find it unpredictably hard work indeed.

snow reports

On soft snow you may not have too many problems, on icy hard pack you definitely would.

@peter_h, OK, go form a specific branch of the Flat Earth and No Bevel Society on your own.

You know it makes sense.

It is correct that the bases run with angle to, in effect, lift the edge out of the snow surfaces when running straight ahead.

You effectively take it away from neutral by putting inclination into the ski to "ask it" to initiate the turn for you, when you command it, and not before.

It's broadly equivalent to driving a car, motorcycle, bicycle, the geometry promotes a straight and centred neutral point when set correctly. Driver's input alters this to turning state, which you have to maintain to continue the arc of turn.

One of the reasons I brought up the base geometry discussion from your ski base picture was because of what I saw from your ski video of technique. That running the ski in constant yaw is lifting one edge from the snow continuously, neither carving or skiing flat.
It's possible that it has prompted this technique in your skiing from having the base and edges in error because it will give you a very false feeling when just run flat onto the snow.

Having the edges set angled up will (if you look at how the ski works) allow the skier to carve a turn, then as you stand them up straight they will go to a neutral phase before leaning them in the opposite direction. This can be a smooth movement with the correct geometry, but with the two edges both engaged when they are not supposed to be will make them difficult to interpret, particularly if you are trying to develop skiing skills.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Scarpa, if the Earth was truly flat, you would have no need for any angle on the edge as there would be no features to catch Laughing

maybe he’s onto something...

A snowHead

So far I have come across no mention of ceramic. Why not?

A snowHead

Ski3 I understand your points but find it amazing that such a miniscule thing can be detectable, on snow and under such a weight on top of it.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@peter_h, many things in the world are amazing; it doesn’t mean they aren’t real. Yes, there is plenty of snake oil available on the internet, but the only thing being sold here is physics.

(And maybe tuning kits Laughing

)

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@peter_h, as above, it's the effect it has on your body position as well that gives the effects desired to command the skis.

Its also a significant amplification that takes place, in that if you tipped the ski up on a flat floor until the one degree angle was presented flat to the floor, but observe how far away a notional point representative of your head shifts, then the effect is much more apparent when you observe your body movement.

Changing the ski base angle to preference tailors this to how a skier prefers it to feel. The closer to zero base angle you get the move hair trigger the ski turn initiation will be.

You're right though in that they look like impossibly small angles. But if you take the top of the body displacement, you'd see a much larger dimension illustrated.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

If you never hit hard snow/ice....NEVER....then you might never notice your bevel. But believe me, if you are on hardpack or ice you will, instantly. And the difference between 1° side bevel and a 3° will make you a believer.

Base bevels for the average Joe usually run 1° unless you're a high level skier or a racer, in which case you may want a .5° for slalom. (I'm not that high a mortal.) Over time, your base bevel will tend to creep higher. At some point you'll realize that the skis just aren't biting without a lot of input from you, when it will be time for a base grind.

Unless you have damage to your ski's edge, the tuner should avoid working on the base bevel because of that tendency for the bevel to increase. Too many bad grinds shorten the life of the ski.

Any ski shop expert who is telling you there is no base bevel isn't an expert. Run. He'll be selling you boots two sizes too large next.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@sibhusky, entirely agree!

@peter_h, yeah so to prove its BS how about having a shop put a 0 deg base edge on your skis then take em out and post video of your results. Don't worry about the cost I'm sure a bunch of us will paypal a couple of quid for the laugh.

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It is easy enough to "see" an angle of 1 or 2 degrees, by laying a straight piece of metal against the surface and then you can see the angle over a much bigger distance. For example the side bevel is very visible, even without doing this.

Salomon skis:

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

@Layne, I never said changing base angles IS recommended, I just said it was perfectly possible and quite easy.

You are the one who said it was NOT recommended, but perhaps we are not that far away if you look at it this way:

I guess there are two ways of interpreting "not recommended" when it comes to changing base angles:
1. We (the "expert") mean don't do it
2. We (the "expert") have no opinion and have neither recommended it or recommended against it. In this case not recommended means an absence of recommendation.

I grant you that the vast majority of skis are supplied at 1 degree....and I would also agree that "not recommended" does apply...BUT the version 2.

I would say the same about side angles though...2 degrees would be the most common supplied angle, 1 degree takes up most of the rest.
Almost no skis are supplied at 3 degrees...yet lots of people on snowHeads advocate 3 degrees (including me).

FWIW I have been on a ski training course where the BASI trainers certainly did recommend changing the base angles to 0.5 or 0.75, but I recognise that this was to a minority audience.

I'd also sgree with you regarding peter_h's weird Very Happy

assertions

snow reports

oops...duplicate

another duplicate!

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

What you are seeing there is a small (100% zoom) version of the pic I posted further back, showing the concave ski underside. There is no base bevel on this ski, or any other I have seen.

A snowHead

@peter_h, A base bevel would get put on that ski after it had been ground flat.

A snowHead

I am having that done currently.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

the thread that just keeps on giving.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

I should just ski, and not read ski forums Smile

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

We have to do something to keep us occupied when we can't ski Toofy Grin

But seriously, if you have had a base grind with no edging at all put on (confirm with shop) then please give us feedback after you ski them.

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Given that Jon's servicing DVD is out of stock on YouTube there is a lot of videos but often contradictory or confusing ,which are the most reliable guides to servicing?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Most Atomic skis seem to be shipped with a 1,3 tune. On the fat powder skis it really helps with edge hold on hard pack. I remember taking my very old Rossi B2s and taking them from a 1 degree edge to a 2 and then to a 3 with plenty of skiing inbetween. The more accute angle definitely helped with grip and also reduced tip chatter when pushing the old wet noodles Laughing

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Well, I had the skis professionally done and... can't tell any difference Smile

Clearly the reason must be that I can't ski.

Help!!

Self-Servicing Skis - Is it worth doing?

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