Is it advised that a group leader be defined before hand and a second in charge just in case the group leader is the one who gets hit?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@DB, Seems like a good idea. Also worth mentioning that in the event everyone not caught focusses on identifying landmarks to fix the last observed position of the person/s caught. To often everyone rushes down and then lose the position.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Found this artical on backcountry ski touring group leadership.
Suppose it depends on the group e.g. I ski tour with three main groups.
In the mainly Austrian Group with whom I ski tour the most our experience is fairly similar, although one may choose the route we have agreed there is no leader and in the event of something going wrong nobody will be defined as the leader as this could lead to that person being prosecuted and we all know what to do in such an event. As it is unknown who would get caught in the avalanche and what our positions would be in such an event we all keep ourselves and each other up to date. We often send each other articles and reports of avalanche incidents so we can determine what went wrong or whether it was just bad luck. Yes having a group of similar experience does sometimes lead to 'discussions' and tension on the hill.
I have also started to ski tour with younger international friends (French, Polish, American etc). They have recently been on avalanche training courses but I expect in the event of an avalanche they would turn to me to lead the rescue as I always lead the tours with this group (unless we have a guide) and they are new to ski touring.
The final group are British friends who I met while freeriding in St Anton. These guys have been skiing much longer than I and we all started ski touring together although they are all approx 10 years older than I. It was more peer to peer than anyone leading the group but we once had an incident where one of the group didn't do what we all agreed and set off an avalanche. This group works well with a guide but I'm not that keen to tour with this group without a guide.
@Weathercam, Thanks for this salutary tale. I hope you're recovering well.
Hope to see you in SC at the SOPiB?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DB wrote:
....we have agreed there is no leader and in the event of something going wrong nobody will be defined as the leader as this could lead to that person being prosecuted ........
In a similar vein we were warned about moving a body in such way that might result in more trauma for the victim and how you could end up being sued!
How ironic would that be, as you end up rescuing someone, dig him out and then get sued, mind you probably in USA.
That sounds daily mail to me. Law details vary around the world but as far as I can tell you'd have to be grossly negligent just about anywhere (including each US state) to have any liability.
I can't find any examples of avalanche rescuers being liable... can anyone find an example? It's either a risk or it's not.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Practice, Practice and then Practice. Different scenarios, steep terrain flat terrain, trees, open fields etc. All create different challenges that you should experience and learn from.
Whoever your off piste with make sure they have equipment and know how to use it. It's them that may have to rescue you, so you may be the greatest and have the most experience but that won't help you if you're the one caught.
Keep calm, easier said than done and make sure you remain safe if your not the one caught. Speed is of the essence if someone is buried, but being methodical and structured with searching is as important.
I've been involved in two, I was taken in the first one and got spat out fortunately. In the second two were killed from impact injuries when they were taken into trees. In that incident, we lost one backpack with all kit as we were in steep terrain and it just slid off the mountain when the person took it off and put it down on the snow and one plastic shovel broke in use.
As you can imagine I had a number of takeaways from the experiences, but the one that sits with me was my inability to put into practice the first aid skills I had been taught. I never practised those, so in the heat of the moment couldn't remember what to do and how to do it. We did the best we could. So Practice everything and often if you can.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@DB
My comment was more about observing the ignorance of skiers in other groups (or even individuals) without packs, and skiing aspects, and not aware of wind loading, temp changes, etc, and then just generally being oblivious to the danger around them. Nothing to do with inter-group dynamics. Like I said I have seen some pretty sketchy behavior and seen skiers triggering small avy's and wondering what their thought process was, or if they even were thinking that they may be on a slope that could slide.
@Bod Good advice. Practice and knowing how to use your equipment is very important. And everyone should have some first aid and CPR training if they are going into the backcountry. My job requires me to have basic first aid and CPR training. So I get certified every two years. Everyone should have a basic first aid kit in their pack.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Toadman, Duct tape, a sanitary pad and cling film are damn useful for treating bleeding, a bit of foam kip mat and some webbing can improvise a sling too.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DB wrote:
So you interrogate everyone you ski off piste with?
I interrogate everybody I go to a beach with as to whether or not they can swim and how well. Or if I rent a villa with a pool!
It's all about your attitude to risk, isn't it, and you'd rather hope for the best than risk offending your ski partners. That's entirely your choice.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
James the Last wrote:
I interrogate everybody I go to a beach with as to whether or not they can swim and how well. Or if I rent a villa with a pool!
Wow; I just make sure they brought their wallet with them.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Always good to report near misses like this....did the same when I had a bad bend when diving - makes people stop and think about what they are doing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Some really good learning and advice in this thread (amongst the bickering ). Here's a couple of videos to reinforce why it's so important to practice regularly - if the worst happens, shock can do weird things to your body and it all needs to become second nature... Apologies if you've seen them before, they do get posted often.
First one - only the guy filming had a transceiver. The victim is one lucky lad! Everything seems difficult, putting shovel together, getting probe out, taking gloves off and getting numb hands, rescuer No.2 digging with his hands despite apparently having a shovel in his bag. The pisteurs turned up very quickly scene but it still took 5 of them another hour of digging to get him fully out.
Oh well popped in to the local mountaineering, climbing, ski touring shop earlier today in Briancon and just had to take this photo.
And it seriously raised the question have the likes of Ortovox and other major brands been able to manufacture "plastic" to the same characteristics as metal because they surely would not be producing them, and the shops of this quality would not be stocking them
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Weathercam, hope you left your wallet in the van, that place is addictive
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Weathercam, are the plastic ones, as referred above, not just super light ones for racers to get past the regs?
They do cater for skimo fanatics in that shop, so some of them for sure, not all of them are ultra light though......
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Had a long chat with a guide mate this morning - and we touched upon my incident, and he asked my how I was, not physically when I said my knee was not too bad, but he was more interested in my mental state, and I explained that I was not going to be chasing untracked on steep slopes and especially now would be sticking to spring snow.
He totally understood where and how I was caught and we talked about how I'd switched off, and he mentioned how that terrain with the rollers could look mellow but how it could so easily catch you out.
He totally understood where and how I was caught and we talked about how I'd switched off, and he mentioned how that terrain with the rollers could look mellow but how it could so easily catch you out.
yep - very seductive
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Weathercam,
Sorry to hear of your ordeal but thank you for sharing the experience with us.
I can empathise fully, as I was away on a guided week in Verbier the week before last (feb 4-11th). Our group were involved in 4 avalanches, yes 4 slides in 1 week, I kid you not!!
The first was on the Wednesday, when we were doing a traverse off the Tbar in Les Boissons. It was snowing all day, and the area we were in near the woods is notorious for slides. I was the 5th person in the group (1 at a time), the 6th in the group was caught in a small slide when the slab went on a convex corner, on the traverse track that we had all passed already. He was buried up to his chest and taken approx 30m down the fall line, whereas the ava debris continued ~ 100m down the slope. He was fine and skied on no issue.
On the Friday, we had a similar incident over on the Siviez side. Again a previously skied traverse gave out, and 2 skiers were taken a bit down the mountain (1 pulled their air bag). Again both skiers were fine & skied on.
Finally, on the same Friday, the last in our group (a guide) was skiing a lovely N aspect, ~25-30 degree, gully on the Siviez side which we had all laid tracks in already no issue other than a bit of sluff for me which did concern me on my go tbh. Anyway she set off the first gully, but she felt it going and managed to swiftly ski on in to a second gully, which to our horror then also subsequently went. Yikes.....
Anyways she skied away unawares that she had triggered the 2nd gully at all, and only realised when she joined us looking on with some trepidation at the end of the pitch approx 400m further down the mountain.
All the slides were on North to NE aspect slopes, at varying altitude ranges between 800-2000m. Incidentally the avalanche risk rating was 3 in resort that day.
Needless to say we were a very chastened group and skied quite conservative lines for the remainder of the day after that. Anyway, all's well that ends well, but i don't care if I don't see another slide in my lifetime tbh, they're an eerie sort of thing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@horgand,
bloody hell!
What does a guide think about his/her professional performance if their clients are involved in 4 avalanches in a week!
I wonder what the local guides office thinks too...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
jedster wrote:
@horgand,
bloody hell!
What does a guide think about his/her professional performance if their clients are involved in 4 avalanches in a week!
I wonder what the local guides office thinks too...
My first thoughts too! I'd be checking whether they were actually UIAGM guides and putting them on the list of 'people to never ski with again'......
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
All the slides were on North to NE aspect slopes, at varying altitude ranges between 800-2000m. Incidentally the avalanche risk rating was 3 in resort that day
Interesting. Did anyone at any point say "I think the N to NE quadrant is dangerous, we should probably avoid it"? I really don't want to be a tool here but the group psychology aspect of why people push on with things after the first, and in this case the second and third incidents is a really helpful learning point.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
jedster wrote:
@horgand,
bloody hell!
What does a guide think about his/her professional performance if their clients are involved in 4 avalanches in a week!
I wonder what the local guides office thinks too...
Yeah, I know, it wasn't the guide's best day on the mountain. Tbf to him, I have skied with him over several years (maybe 12 days in total), he has always been very diligent about safety, and he is a very experienced guide who is excellent normally. Also he was just back on the mountain after being out sick, so might have been slightly rusty on the riskiest aspect slopee. The slide on the Wednesday was with a different guide in our group.
Yes we were involved in 3 slides on the Friday, which is 3 too many for me, but tbf 2 of those were part of the one 'incident' if you like (as described above).
Tbh, our group were all very experienced skiers and mountaineers, I think we just got a deceptive 'safe' looking day (e.g. Ava risk 3), not especially windy or warm with really dodgy N/NE slopes with depth hoar in them that caught him and us unawares. As I said, we did adjust our skiing after the 2nd incident on the Friday, not before time mind
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@horgand, cheers for posting that up. Being able to cough up a post following a few days like that is enormously valuable for others.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
gorilla wrote:
Quote:
All the slides were on North to NE aspect slopes, at varying altitude ranges between 800-2000m. Incidentally the avalanche risk rating was 3 in resort that day
Interesting. Did anyone at any point say "I think the N to NE quadrant is dangerous, we should probably avoid it"? I really don't want to be a tool here but the group psychology aspect of why people push on with things after the first, and in this case the second and third incidents is a really helpful learning point.
The first incident was 2 days before in a very different part of the mountain.
On the Friday we did adjust our skiing after the second incident on the Friday.
Retrospective wisdom is no wisdom really. Yes, in retrospect, we (all) should have realised after the first incident on the Friday that N/NE slopes were dodgy, but as I say this was 2 days after the first slide in a different valley. Also the first 2 slides were small really, scary nonetheless, but small local slides. The 3rd & 4th slides (1 incident) were substantial alright and had us all rightly spooked.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@horgand,
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Just to recap, following from Gorila's promptings, I suppose there are some learnings to be taken from our experience. These are the lessons imho:
1. The Ava risk for a resort is only notional. Here ava risk for Verbier was 3, but clearly the N/NE aspect slopes were extremely treachorous, whereas other aspect slopes seemed rock solid.
2. When a slope of a certain aspect (&gradient) slides, take full heed of this, and subsequently try to stay off loaded slopes of that aspect, especially at ~ that altitude range, for the next SEVERAL days and, even in DIFFERENT valleys.
3. For me, perhaps I should have been more vocal about my misgivings having first skied the pitch on the Friday, after I had felt significant sluff on my go. As I said, I thought at one stage that I had triggered a slide. I did mention that to the guide when I reached the bottom of the pitch. In retrospect, I probably should also have enquired whether he thought (as group leader) that we should warn the rest of our group out of skiing the slope at all. Bear in mind, this was after a 1/2 hour tiring hike to get into it in the first place, so perhaps our group would have been reluctant to miss out on it (likely IMHO), but at least it would have been better to perhaps call them, and give them our considered view, so that they could make a better call on their own safety.
4. Even though Friday's guide was only just back on the mountain, perhaps our group, having already been involved in a slide earlier that week with a different guide, should have better ensured that he was fully briefed on the full details of that slide, to better inform him of the likely dangers lurking in the snowpack on his return.
5. Each incident occurred when we were skiing one by one, separated, with eyes on each other, and this long established, simple, fail safe strategy proved it's immeasurable worth again (& again ) in all of the incidents, thankfully.
6. Safety is a personal issue, and you should not be too reticent to opt out of something even if a guide says he thinks it ok. That inner voice is a valuable asset, listen to it.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Interesting read. The best 0powder day I've ever had was on the piste at monetier. Perf3ct gradient for powder imho
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Weathercam wrote:
Oh well popped in to the local mountaineering, climbing, ski touring shop earlier today in Briancon and just had to take this photo.
And it seriously raised the question have the likes of Ortovox and other major brands been able to manufacture "plastic" to the same characteristics as metal because they surely would not be producing them, and the shops of this quality would not be stocking them
Was in same shop today buying some ski boot crampons and the guy serving spoke excellent English and was going out of his way to help, so took a moment to ask him about all the plastic shovels, and he shrugged his shoulders and said that's all they had left as everyone buys the metal ones first, and when I asked him about why they still prouduce them, he showed my the price tag, and again shrugged his shoulders
The later on via WhatsApp from our "mates" ski group I get this.....
Not too sure whether it was Chamonix or Courmayer, but they were with a guide, and it went on 37 degrees NW at 2,300 !!!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Is it me... Or have the last three winters been way more complex in terms of snowpack stability than normal?
Or am I just learning more, and so learning how ignorant I used to be*?
*I very definitely know used to be VERY ignorant, but more like 5+ years ago
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Weathercam, yikes that's a proper scary slide, get caught in that and it's goodnight nurse!!
Was it Chamonix or Courmayeur as a matter of interest!?
Seems there's a bloody nasty layer of depth hoar in the snow pack, that seems to be giving out most frequently on N/NE/NW aspect slopes due to wind loading.
With snow due again in the next ~9 days, together with some warm days, it's a time to be very careful out there!!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 27-02-17 13:27; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
clarky999 wrote:
Is it me... Or have the last three winters been way more complex in terms of snowpack stability than normal?
Or am I just learning more, and so learning how ignorant I used to be*?
*I very definitely know used to be VERY ignorant, but more like 5+ years ago
I think in the last 2 or 3 years there have thin snowpacks early season which resulted in depth hoar. So far this season it seems more persistent ?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Weathercam, 2300m, that's a tad lower than the note regarding weak layers in the current avi forecast. Goes to show...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Not sure but looks a bit like the back bowls at Le tour.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
). Here's a couple of videos to reinforce why it's so important to practice regularly - if the worst happens, shock can do weird things to your body and it all needs to become second nature... Apologies if you've seen them before, they do get posted often.
) in all of the incidents, thankfully.
a duck... If that was 5° steeper they would have been 