 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Frosty the Snowman, its the only part of this thread that I've understood. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, Does that mean, that if they carry on, you won't be reaching for the horlicks then?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well I have just looked on in wonder! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
On the subject of beginners' classes though, why is it that the kids in the classes you see (and attempt to avoid) snaking around the mountain are invariably sitting with ramrod straight legs, bums as far over their ski tails as possible and chests virtually horizontal - all with an ESF uniform at the front? If the idea is to be doing things right from the word go this surely had to be bad news!
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Did you ever look at kids physical build?
eg How much (percent) of that bodyweight is their head?
How strong are those leg muscles & how much force would they need to exert to flex the standard kids ski boot?
If you ever skied much with kids you would realise that their skiing suddenly changes - when they grow to the right stage... harping on to some poor kid that just is physically NOT up to skiing like an adult is poor teaching....
if you are such a ski god to laugh at them go ski elsewhere & leave the kids classes alone!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ajhainey wrote: |
Do you see a difference in the standard needed to teach beginners (the bread and butter of your average ski school?) and that needed to teach aspiring intermediates upwards? For the latter I would agree strong technical skills are a neccessity - but to teach someone to snowplough I would think, on the technical side, you just need to be good at snowplough?? 
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well actually if I really wanted a friend/loved one to learn to ski I would make sure I got them the best ski instructor i could find for their first lesson....
My instructors have a saying the MOST important lesson you take is your FIRST one .....
If you want a n=1 study...
had an all day private booked with one of my instructors.... Found a physiotherapy student in the nurses home that had never seen snow & wanted to go.... threw her in the car with my old ski clothes.... hired her some skis & got a lift ticket with the usual free beginner lesson(2 hours)..... showed her what to do & sent her off with stupidvisor to have the lesson....
Went off for my lesson but dragged instructor back to check on her after her lesson.... She was VERY happy with lesson (now she is athletic & young & has a good grasp of anatomy).... & was linking snowplow turns on the bottom end of beginner slope quiet happily...
I get my instructor to take her for a run or 2 .... then we send her off in bus to be a foot passenger to mountain restaurant while we ski over to the lift.... pick her up for the chair ride... give her lunch on mountain.... send her back to beginner slope & take her for a couple more runs... then send her to practice while we ski...
End of day her summary "I thought the guy in my beginner lesson was good - until I skied with XXXX. It REALLY makes a BIG difference to ski with an experienced instructor doesn't it?" now her instructor had taught for a few years... but was not full cert & not close to getting it .... seems his understanding of skiing is just NOT as deep... hence he is less able to find the small changes needed to make skiing work for her....
Good ski instructors make GOOD CLEAN demos... those that struggle less so... GOOD ski instructors have a depth of experience and understanding - simply a BIGGER bag of tricks to choose from...
If we really wanted people to love skiing we would insist on full certs for the beginners!
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| ajhainey wrote: |
| On a dry slope you (certainly used to) get lots of ESC instructors - who's chances of surviving an FIS course even without the gates in it would be minimal - but who sucessfully teach plenty of people each year to a steady snowplough level. |
who learns to ski on a dry slope? 
why? seems masochistic idea.... do they want to hate skiing?
want some useful skiing skills - go inline skating.....
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Never said it wasn't better, just is it necessary/workable? Of course in an ideal world I'd have an instructor that was themself a fantastic skier, and also a fantastic teacher - but what I'm saying is that if you have to choose - as a beginner I'd rather have the latter, and as an intermediate or above the former?
Your example illustrates my point, that a lower level of skill can be prefectly adequate. The first instructor was, while not the best possible available, perfectly adequate to the task in hand, of getting your friend happy and confident snowploughing around the place. Presumably as he spends more time in his chosen career he will improve - but isn't there a place for this level of instructor?
I've not been taught skiing in a while by anyone except easiski but I have learnt to horseride recently - with several instructors. The one I prefer and get most out of is definately not the most competent themselves, but makes it fun, and keeps me well motivated, and I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to ski teaching....
Probably it boils down to what you are looking for, I'm lean more towards learning a little, while having a lot of fun than vice versa (it is a holiday after all!), that probably makes a big difference to what you think is important in an instructor?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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OK and therefore you want a certain kind of instruction, for maximum technical improvement. But I suspect my view "it's a holiday" is the more common amongst the vast majority of british skiers at least?
No need to be rude about dry slopes btw, I think you'd be suprised how many people learnt or have taught on them! Haven't been for a while, but until you've done the 'real thing' dry slope is perfectly good fun - far better than x-country running which was the other sports option at school iirc...
aj xx
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ajhainey wrote: |
No need to be rude about dry slopes btw, I think you'd be suprised how many people learnt or have taught on them! Haven't been for a while, but until you've done the 'real thing' dry slope is perfectly good fun - far better than x-country running which was the other sports option at school iirc...
aj xx |
not being rude - truely amazed that people would do this.... seems bizzarre.... I can see indoor slopes....but dryslopes?
was suitably confused when i discovered ski Club in ireland was on dryslope.... was sure it would be indoor....but no they run whole series of training on a dryslope... racing & all.... even we are not quite that mad - although sand skiing does happen every summer....mad keen skiers get desperate - but not beginners...
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PG thanks. I buy your arguments for instruction appropriate to a strong intermediate/early advanced pupil, but (re your criteria for your preference of BASI 1s) doesn't the better "teaching methods, enthusiasm and general approach" make the British style of instruction more appropriate for the earlier stages of the learning process too?
Jake Is it not the case that a BASI 3 can work in France if they also have passed the Eurotest? Not sure how common that would be though.
little tiger, I'm not laughing at all, just a bit disappointed. I'm sure you are right about the causes, but I'm not at all sure I agree that the effects are a necessary outcome. Just a few counter-examples.
1) My nephew started skiing aged 5 (after 2 years of waterskiing). He immediately stood in a perfectly balanced position, and in his first 10 minutes executed a text-book parallel turn (until he carried it too far, poined directly up the hill and fell over backwards). 4 years, and a number of weeks in ski school later, he is of course skiing faster and over more varied terrain, but now has exactly the body position I caricatured above.
2) My niece started skiing a year ago aged 3 1/2, and had a beautifully balanced stance - albeit she could only really go in straight lines. No ideas yet how she'll develop.
3) In October I joined in a race training class where most of the others were young kids. I would guess most were probably aged about 7-9 and had nothing of that caricature about them (and were mostly faster than me too).
And re your other rant, dryslopes are fantastic training for technique (OK maybe not for soft off-piste directly, but anything on hardpack). I've been skiing regularly on one for the last 9 months and made huge improvements in that time. Sure snow's more fun, but the practicalities are it takes maybe 12 hours to get to, and only <1 to get to the dry....
(and I sincerely hope you are not half as obnoxious in person as you are in print... )
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN, definitely! With fully qualified instructors anyway. Just have some doubts over whether attitude and enthusiasm always compensates in the case of trainees who have 'average' technique though, even when teaching beginners.
All this is tarring whole groups of individuals with the same pretty broad brush, of course.
I think it's good to bring some of the allegedly dodgy practices, questions over technical standards, different teaching methodologies etc out into the open though. Skiers on short breaks to the snow deserve to know what they are getting for their money. They pay a lot for instruction and are entitled to have some info about who is teaching them, their qualifications, etc.
There used to be a few verbals now and again, when over a couple of seasons I paid for private instruction for my kids at weekends, in some twenty different resorts mainly around the southern French Alps. Over twenty weekends a season plus Christmas, half-term, Easter, sometimes summer and October glacier trips too, that amount to a lot of one-to-one lessons a year. In most of the smallish resorts there was nothing but the ESF. I knew what I wanted - none of the ancient monuments that had taken root in the Alps 60 + years ago, preferably a woman to teach my daughter, preferably a former racer, fully qualified, enthusiastic, fun. So I asked for all of that. I got a few raised eyebrows, believe me! You can imagine what they tried to palm me off with on occasion. The 'pecking order' (seniority rules) was only circumvented with some pretty tough talking, at times.
But we're the consumers, and standards of instruction really do vary a lot. People need to be aware of that, make sure they get what's best suited to their needs, and don't hesitate to complain if it's not up to scratch.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, I guess the Swiss, Austrians etc do not use dry slopes is because they have something called glaciers. Dry slopes are not a replacement for the real stuff they are a training aid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GrahamN wrote: |
little tiger, I'm not laughing at all, just a bit disappointed. I'm sure you are right about the causes, but I'm not at all sure I agree that the effects are a necessary outcome. Just a few counter-examples.
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sure SOME kids have the strength & coordination (just as some can play tennis while others lack the basic skills/strength until they grow a little older)....
The reality is the majority have not the physical characteristics required yet.... & (just like many adults) kids like to FIT IN... so if the class all ski that way guess how even the ones that might be able to do it may look? Unless they have some great examples to mimic they will mimic their buddies....
this is why my canadian instructor skis so nicely.... his dad was an instructor & mum a keen skier & he grew up at Whistler.... he spent the whole time copying parents & friends who all skied WELL (really well).... then he got to ski ALL year (on glacier but year round)....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Nick Zotov, 
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FAQ
or possibly people who can only ever dream of going on a skiing holiday in the Alps 
Corn & snowgums is FUNNNNNN skiing....
Still, she did have excellent references from other snowheads - and I was very pleased with the result 