 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My point was that yes, with a bit of work you can get the French reports, but they aren't as accessible as Austria (great SnowSafe app for example) or other areas of the alps. Hidden away in a corner of MeteoFrance and only available in French may be fine if you know where it is and can speak French, but not very helpful in keeping the majority of skiers informed. I wouldn't dream of venturing offpiste without knowing what was going on, but many people are inherently lazy and don't make an effort. Better publicity of the avalanche data is not a bad thing and the boards in St Anton are a great example of making this information widely available.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dashed, Indeed.
Even in pure 'Euros and Cents' terms, you don't have to save much heli rescue time to buy a lot of translation and web services.
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@Dashed, learning the specific French to understand the avalanche reports takes a great deal less time than learning to ski sufficiently competently and safely to be out there without someone who knows better. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Our resort puts up the weather and avalanche reports daily - can't think off the top of my head whether they are just in French, but they are certainly there, at the tourist office and some of the main noticeboards near the base of lifts.
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@Weathercam, scary stuff 
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Jeeeeeesus!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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3 (4?) dead in Italy over the weekend.
It's nuts. We were in Champoluc Saturday, being very cautious and conservative, and even so found some self triggered slides on really, really innocuous, shallow slopes. Of course, by afternoon nothing that was vaguely accessible had not been skied.
I find this talks to the subject far more eloquently than I can http://www.mcnabsnowboarding.com/snowboarding/the-times-they-are-a-changing/
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Two dead today in our neck of the woods in two incidents, and two over the weekend.
It's feckin crazy - had a long chat tonight with a ESF born and bred Serre guy, who every twenty or so mins keeps telling me "be careful, be careful" - he's never known it this bad, but he has lost two very close friends
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That picture of pistes engulfed in LGB is sobering. very bad news, all those deaths.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think avi deaths are over 70 now, it's just insane.
Probably going to rise given the high pressure coming, as people will have no choice but to ski the alpine if they want to find more snow.
I'm starting to think about taking up park skiing or something stupid until it either snows down low again or spring thaw stabilises stuff.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 10-02-15 0:11; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It is baffling to me how some people are apparently struggling to find avalanche reports, but for those who have weak google-fu, just go here for reports from the whole of Europe:
www.avalanches.org
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Poster: A snowHead
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| clarky999 wrote: |
I'm starting to think about taking up park skiing or something stupid until it either snows down low again or spring thaw stabilises stuff. |
Next we're due to go to Valle Maira with a guide and he emailed this to my mate on Sunday
Dear Tim,
Everything is fine, I have been the whole week in Val Maira and we got snowed in yesterday, managed to escape the valley this morning....it snowed for almost four days in a row with over 3 meters of snow... At the moment the avalanche risk is very high, but with this week of stable and sunny weather it will become very stable for us. We might get some very good tour-conditions in my opinion! I can call you any evening as you want, when do you prefer?
I'm sort if curious as to how it will become stable without us having to ski croûte and heavy powder as these warm temps are feckin all that nice snow.
We're off to Queyras today skiing trees, carefully - avi risk is 4 - So will see what's it like there as Val Maira is SE of Queyras.
http://www.meteofrance.com/previsions-meteo-montagne/bulletin-avalanches/queyras/OPP17
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Given the crowds and conditions, we're skating at the weekend 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would say the actual system is fine. I do think it needs to be "promoted" more though. If you are ignorant of it you will not just come across it. The flags are what holidaymakers see , and (maybe) will use them like the flags they see on a beach re swimming conditions. I would be surprised if they went over to the boards under the flags and read the reports, especially if they are only in French. If they did , would they understand that there is no blanket cover warning ?
Education and promotion is needed ... Not a nanny state.
The promotion of Freeride skiing is rife. Skis, boards, great videos of open powder fields bathed in sunshine with ski hero's slashing it up make you want to jump on at the earliest opportunity and if you turn up on holiday and its been a lean time for snow and you hear there has been loads of snow the past coupke of days ... The best of the season so far, and the sun is shining, then you see a slope you can get to, and when you do it looks so so inviting .... then the uneducated are just going to have to do it.
Its the I can see it , I want it and I'm going to have it now attitude of today ... Its the capacity and capability to do safely which most only have one of ..
But how many of these deaths have been holiday makers doing this ?
I haven't read all the reports but I have read that guide led groups ,Tourers (who you would think had knowledge), snowshoer's in Queyras, off work instructors, guides ..... All those that will have knowledge of the mountain .... have been involved.
Having seen slopes covered in huge surface hoar plates whilst skinning in January it made me very aware that it wasn't going to be a place to be after the next snowfall ..... But that was just there ! ... Localised, local knowledge ...
But you can't give everyone specific localised knowledge or can you ... That gives way to green flagging areas which means a balance ofe no go areas ....
Which means a US gating system which means patrolled inbound freeride areas.
But look at the recent freeride work tour avalanche
education, experience, restraint and respect ....
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freeride work tour?
Nice work if you can get it 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just got back from Les Contamines where there was very little evidence of instability. A couple of fairly small slides had been triggered by avvy control and we saw one natural slide all the way to the ground but that was on a steep, grassy, sunny slope well away from any pistes that is notoriously avalanche prone. Even so, we were pretty cautious - stayed of steep slopes, kept to shoulders as much as possible, wary of cornices and terrain traps. Conditions were interesting - temperature inversion meant that best snow was often low down.
On Saturday we skied a route of about 1400m vertical to the valley floor probably had fresh tracks on half of it. Stopped at the wonderful Auberge de Colombaz for lunch. Nice....
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Of the 25 (+ 2 missing presumed dead) or so deaths in France this season, 23 were local to the mountains or from the big prealpine towns like Marseille, Lyon. There was a slovanian on the VB and a Brit is missing, presumed killed by an avalanche in Meribel. There were non-fatal incidents involving Brits like the Foglietta but that a trip led by a local ski instructor and a Chamonix based guide.
The victims are frequently male, middle aged, often civil servants (lots of time off) or retired and experienced, at least in terms of skier/days. It varies a bit year to year. For example this year the Hautes-Alpes have been particuarly dangerous from the start of the ski season whereas in a typical year the Savoie (which sees more non-French skier days) is often the worst affected area so you see a few Parisians and maybe a brit or two in the figures.
The problem isn't really tourists, young hoodlums, foreign freeriders. They tend to be much more cautious than locals who have read the avalanche bulletin but go out anyway because they know the mountains. The danger is a large mass of skiers exposing themselves repeatedly to risk 3 and risk 4 conditions; the mountain is going to cull some of them each season. McCammon and others have gone into the human factors but a number of French ski tourers I've spoken to simply don't want to hear about the risks, skiing has become an addiction.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| I think avi deaths are over 70 now, it's just insane. ... I'm starting to think about taking up park skiing or something stupid until it either snows down low again or spring thaw stabilises stuff. |
I guess you'd not be driving either, if you knew how many people are killed on the roads each day. It's a choice people make.
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| philwig wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| I think avi deaths are over 70 now, it's just insane. ... I'm starting to think about taking up park skiing or something stupid until it either snows down low again or spring thaw stabilises stuff. |
I guess you'd not be driving either, if you knew how many people are killed on the roads each day. It's a choice people make. |
C'mon dude, everyone knows driving is statistically more dangerous, and I'm well aware that it's a choice.
My choice is to not ski many of the lines that I ski regularly in a normal season this year, as those deep weak layers are such a random and hard to predict factor, and one that I'm really not used to trying to manage. Slopes have slid this year that never normally slide - including most of the 'safe' ski tours that people use when danger is high.
I'll wait 'til things get safer, and in the meantime continue enjoying low angle and trees.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| philwig wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| I think avi deaths are over 70 now, it's just insane. ... I'm starting to think about taking up park skiing or something stupid until it either snows down low again or spring thaw stabilises stuff. |
I guess you'd not be driving either, if you knew how many people are killed on the roads each day. It's a choice people make. |
In a typical season the risk levels of the two are actually about the same (don't have a link, but it was a big study by the SLF a few years ago that compared chance of death per hour of activity). This season has seen far more deaths than normal, so assuming the SLF study was correct skiing off piste at the moment is more dangerous than driving.
Clarky999 was clearly joking (have you seen his videos? he doesn't ski in the park!), but he has a point, the situation at the moment is more dangerous than normal, so any assumptions you normally make probably need to be re-evaluated as the snow pack is clearly much less stable than in a typical year.
[I've not seen any stats, but I bet park skiing isn't very safe either]
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| davidof wrote: |
Of the 25 (+ 2 missing presumed dead) or so deaths in France this season, 23 were local to the mountains or from the big prealpine towns like Marseille, Lyon. There was a slovanian on the VB and a Brit is missing, presumed killed by an avalanche in Meribel. There were non-fatal incidents involving Brits like the Foglietta but that a trip led by a local ski instructor and a Chamonix based guide.
The victims are frequently male, middle aged, often civil servants (lots of time off) or retired and experienced, at least in terms of skier/days. It varies a bit year to year. For example this year the Hautes-Alpes have been particuarly dangerous from the start of the ski season whereas in a typical year the Savoie (which sees more non-French skier days) is often the worst affected area so you see a few Parisians and maybe a brit or two in the figures.
The problem isn't really tourists, young hoodlums, foreign freeriders. They tend to be much more cautious than locals who have read the avalanche bulletin but go out anyway because they know the mountains. The danger is a large mass of skiers exposing themselves repeatedly to risk 3 and risk 4 conditions; the mountain is going to cull some of them each season. McCammon and others have gone into the human factors but a number of French ski tourers I've spoken to simply don't want to hear about the risks, skiing has become an addiction. |
^ Agree.
The people getting killed off piste are generally experienced mountain users.
Generally they are not clueless or reckless idiots.
If you want to ski powder / cold snow on steeper slopes then there is always some element of risk ?
However : more and more people are now skiing off piste since the 1980s or 90s.
Yet accidents rates remain roughly the same ?
So a good case can be made that the message is getting across ?
But also that mountains can be inherently dangerous places ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
However : more and more people are now skiing off piste since the 1980s or 90s.
Yet accidents rates remain roughly the same ?
So a good case can be made that the message is getting across ?
But also that mountains can be inherently dangerous places ? |
I think if the message hadn't got across we'd be seeing 40 to 50 deaths per year in France rather than the 20 to 30 but it is true, the more time you spend exposing yourself to risk, even taking precautions, the more likely you are to get caught.
btw some figures on driving vs backcountry skiing
http://www.skiingthebackcountry.com/ski-articles/Avalanche_Safety_Statistics
but he doesn't take into account number of hours. Still Philwig makes a good point. If the French govt wants to reduce premature deaths there is more mileage in Road Safety and Cigarette smoking.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Posted at the top of the gondola at Le tour chamonix. It's the detailed avi report in French. I've not noticed it before.
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In the Queyras yesterday on a road trip to three spots and looking up at some of the beautiful untracked.
"stunningly beautiful, fatally attractive"
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You know it makes sense.
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@Weathercam, Haven't been there for some time, it is stunningly beautiful. I remember ice climbing there about 15 years ago and not doing one ice fall as the snow approach to it showed signs of instability.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@stanton, that face had been checked the day before by local guides and fwt guides. It had been bombed with 15 x 2.5kg bombs. It had been rechecked that morning with three guides skiing the face to check it was safe.
And it slid.
What does that tell you?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 11-02-15 17:50; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
What does that tell you?
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It tells me that anyone who wants a simple avalanche warnings system that tells them where it is safe to ski on any given day is dreaming.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@jedster, very true.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jbob wrote: |
| What does that tell you? |
Don't stack it and then go clomping around trying to find your ski's. Call for heli pick up directly
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
I think avi deaths are over 70 now, it's just insane.
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That sounded unlikely to me, but a quick google suggests it's (sadly) right...75 so far (43 in France and Switzerland) according to The Times. I had in mind that the snowpack last year/a couple of years ago had been bad too, but clearly this year's been worse 
@jbob, <shudder>
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
I think avi deaths are over 70 now, it's just insane.
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That sounded unlikely to me, but a quick google suggests it's (sadly) right...75 so far (43 in France and Switzerland) according to The Times. I had in mind that the snowpack last year/a couple of years ago had been bad too, but clearly this year's been worse
@jbob, <shudder> |
There was a pretty bad season a couple of years ago, I remember some slopes in St Anton being closed for weeks at a time and there were glide cracks all over the place. In the end a lot of those slopes didn't trigger, perhaps thick slabs formed over the weak layers that were strong enough to support skiers, or perhaps people are taking more risks these days (risk homeostasis with increased use of ABS perhaps, or just lack of education and an urge to use fancy new skis?). For what ever reason I see more and more people skiing off piste every season. I actually don't think it's false confidence because of ABS, because a lot of them clearly don't have an rucksack at all (and hence have no shovel, probe and most likely no transceiver).
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| sah wrote: |
There was a pretty bad season a couple of years ago, I remember some slopes in St Anton being closed for weeks at a time and there were glide cracks all over the place. In the end a lot of those slopes didn't trigger, perhaps thick slabs formed over the weak layers that were strong enough to support skiers |
A glide crack forms typically on a grassy slope where water has got between the snow layer and the base. As a general rule there is no weak layer and the slope is safe to ski (well unless you fall into the glide crack). They generally release spontaneously in the spring when it is warm. If at all.
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FAQ
) who'd from Briancon. Most of the accidents have been in the southern Alps and Italy. He thinks the conditions here are significantly safer/more stable (but still far from safe!). Two days ago a guide and his client were killed south of here 
