 Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Perhaps if whole bowls are marked for closure for blasting activities these are secured rather better than just with tapes that could be ducked under? |
Normal practice would be to close any lifts leading to the slopes. Then you've only got ski tourers to worry about, still they've not purchased a lift pass 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Steve77 wrote: |
| This guy sounds like a bit of a dick but it's still a lot safer to ski without a beacon with someone with years of experience of an area and understanding of what's likely to slide and what has happened in previous years rather than an enthusiastic amateur with all the gear, but the latter is generally viewed as 'ok'. A 1 in a million chance of getting buried without a transceiver is better than a 1 in a 100,000 chance of being buried with one |
Agree with you totally, but on occasion very experienced people get it wrong, so why not also carry the appropriate equipment just in case? I don't think an enthusiastic amateur is viewed as OK just because of equipment, there is a lot more to skiing off piste safely than carrying some kit, anyone who has that view needs to have a long hard look at themselves!
Bob
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skied with the top ESF group in Alpe D'Huez at Christmas on a powder day after a big snowfall 3/5 avi risk. First time I've skied in an ESF 'expert' class where the instructor issued the holy trinity to the group (me and another guy had our own). Some of the people looked at the gear liked they'd been handed alien artefacts so I'm guessing I would have been in the s**t if I'd had to rely on anyone else other the instructor and the other tooled up guy if it had all gone Pete Tong!
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| Corduroy wrote: |
shep, 
update:
Today, we took the red snowcross area that drops down to the Prodains car park from the top. All morning the ava controls very firing, boom, and when we arrived at the entrance to the run it was fenced off and clearly sign posted as closed. Beyond was a huge snow field with not a track on it. We had around 25cm overnight.
The instructor had us go under the fence.
So i thought "right, i will question you more this time" and asked him straight why we were going on to a closed area, why it was closed and why he thought it was safe to do so?
This was his reply
"if you want to go back you go back" in a snotty manner. I nearly told the guy to F off. I persisted and simply asked why he thought it was safe and to explain why it was closed.
In the end he did but didn't like being questioned.
I will seriously consider using ESF again although i must admit i have had a ball on the runs we have done. Today was thigh deep in places and amazing fun. |
Interesting. I had the mother of bollockings from a pisteur in there. I was with a local Brit and and another punter, all equipped, except the other punter only with bleep. We were half way down and went to help a solo skier calling for help who was digging frantically above us. It was c. 30 minutes to closing time, i.e. getting darker… We called for Pisteurs and climbed for about 15 minutes through thigh deep powder (Makes you realise small distances below in a real incident could be v important) to get to him. Turns out he had lost a ski, in there on his own, no kit etc etc. At which point Pisteur turns up, assumes we are all the same "group" and goes mental because as Ardoyne says, the unseen (clouds) risk above where other pisteurs have been dispatched to search as well. Kit didn't cut much mustard with him.
Well done questioning your man.
I suppose "please teach me your decision making, I am trying to learn…" and .. "will my Carte?Carre Neige cover me in here?" and "if I go back do I ask at the ESF office for my refund?" would have perked him up bit - but as the French say "L'espirit de l'escalier" cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'esprit_de_l'escalier
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ok it took me a while to work out where you were, I have taken many groups down there. Normally Avalanches are not an issue just someone falling at the top! Even when I had transceivers and everything available, it was not an issue there but it is an impressive couloir and a buzz when one has finished it! Sad attitude from the ESF guy but essentially except for a fall not too much danger from a slide. It would be very rare a local was caught out.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Shocking attitude from the ESF instructor, not sure I would actually have wanted to ski with him and I would still think about speaking to the ski school boss.
Just to provide balance I did a couple of off piste days with the ESF in Les Menuires a couple of years ago and they were great. We were with a pretty young instructor and all the group were given transceiver, shovel and probe despite the fact we were skiing pretty mellow terrain. It was just after a big snow fall and he did talk a bit about why we were skiing certain aspects of the slopes and point out steeper aspects which were more dangerous. I guess with such a big company as the ESF you are always going to get good and bad employees, the only answer would be to talk to an instructor before going out with them.
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| Ardoyne wrote: |
| Steve77 wrote: |
| This guy sounds like a bit of a dick but it's still a lot safer to ski without a beacon with someone with years of experience of an area and understanding of what's likely to slide and what has happened in previous years rather than an enthusiastic amateur with all the gear, but the latter is generally viewed as 'ok'. A 1 in a million chance of getting buried without a transceiver is better than a 1 in a 100,000 chance of being buried with one |
Agree with you totally, but on occasion very experienced people get it wrong, so why not also carry the appropriate equipment just in case? I don't think an enthusiastic amateur is viewed as OK just because of equipment, there is a lot more to skiing off piste safely than carrying some kit, anyone who has that view needs to have a long hard look at themselves!
Bob |
Exactly the point. Now your risk of DYING if these odds are correct would be more like 1 in 2 million
(Though I think 1 in 100,000 to 1 in 1 million risk of burial odds are extremely optimistic and actually unrealistic. Multiply by AT LEAST 10 to 20 I wouod say. Odds still very small. Of course this is completely off topic)
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I think you are lucky to have such a good instructor taking you to the good snow. The ESF ski those lines all the time, they are often in the couloir along from the Swiss wall. I would be quite content that they know what they are doing, their knowledge is second to none.
I don't really understand your points you seem to be giving the guy a hard time, but then you follow him down the runs!!
Frankly if you aren't competent enough to make your own decisions about going off piste and pay for an instructor, why are you arguing with him every day. Even more strange is arguing, then following him down, then posting all this stuff.
I ski off piste most days in the PDS, I don't carry a transceiver unless I am ski touring out of resort, but coming from a climbing/ mountain rescue background I make my own decisions about what is safe and what is not. If I am not sure I stay on piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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nevis1003, he's not arguing, he's asking, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking if something is okay if you're worried about it. Particularly if you are ducking under explicit closures.
People not speaking up in groups for fear of looking silly or because the leader is 'so experienced' is one of the heuristic traps that wind up getting people avalanched.
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meh, Was just about to say just that.
nevis1003, Did you read the whole thread? As meh states i wasn't arguing i was just asking.
I have NEVER skied off piste before this week and admit to being quite new to skiing in general, i have about 6 weeks under my belt. And for the record i didn't pay for an instructor to take me off piste, it just happened and i wasn't really expecting it.
I cannot make my own decisions, i have no idea what i am doing doing off piste so isn't the sensible thing to ask?
Isn't that how you learnt or were you just born with that divine knowledge?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
People not speaking up in groups for fear of looking silly or because the leader is 'so experienced' is one of the heuristic traps that wind up getting people avalanched.
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This is exactly what I was getting at as well. I think there is nothing wrong with saying "I understand from some research that Off-piste skiing is normally done with 'the holy trinity' can you please explain why you don't think it is necessary here?".
I told the kids instructor (who I was expecting to take them skiing outside of piste boundaries) last year that they were carrying bleeps, more so that everyone would remember that they needed turning off should a real incident be encountered. The instructor told me he wasn't carrying one, but I didn't tell the kids to turn theirs off because of the insinuation that they weren't necessary.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 19-01-14 14:48; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well he's not just asking is he ? He's asking and then posting criticisms of the ESF on the net. So now he's asked on the internet so he and you have got my reply, if you can't make your own decisions, don't go off piste. The only thing that gets people avalanched is skiing on a slope that is ready to go. So if you can't work it out for yourself and you've got lots of money by all means pay an instructor, but what I can't understand is doing that and then slagging the instructor off on the net.
Why ask complete strangers on the internet if what you have been doing is safe? Weird?
The instructor told you it was safe, obviously he thought it was or he wouldn't have been doing it. The ESF have got access to resources and local knowledge that is quite excellent.
Get a grip, get up some mountains and get some experience, go on a course or something.
Are you sure your really on holiday at all? Why are you not out skiing today instead of posting rubbish on here? The sun is shining, snow's okay?
I'm nackered after 15 days non stop skiing and climbing, what's your excuse?
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nevis1003, personally I was in a car crash yesterday on the way to the ski area I live near and rolled twice at 60mph. You don't see me being an agressive douche canoe on the internet so I'm not sure why you think being tired is an excuse for it. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| nevis1003 wrote: |
Well he's not just asking is he ? He's asking and then posting criticisms of the ESF on the net. So now he's asked on the internet so he and you have got my reply, if you can't make your own decisions, don't go off piste. The only thing that gets people avalanched is skiing on a slope that is ready to go. So if you can't work it out for yourself and you've got lots of money by all means pay an instructor, but what I can't understand is doing that and then slagging the instructor off on the net.
Why ask complete strangers on the internet if what you have been doing is safe? Weird?
The instructor told you it was safe, obviously he thought it was or he wouldn't have been doing it. The ESF have got access to resources and local knowledge that is quite excellent.
Get a grip, get up some mountains and get some experience, go on a course or something.
Are you sure your really on holiday at all? Why are you not out skiing today instead of posting rubbish on here? The sun is shining, snow's okay?
I'm nackered after 15 days non stop skiing and climbing, what's your excuse? |
What a Dick you are.
Have you read anything before spouting your sh!te?
I questioned his attitude to being asked about why situations that i didn't understand were safe. Is that not what lessons are all about?
You just stated that "The instructor told you it was safe", ER NO HE DIDN'T! I asked if it was safe as it was a LESSON which is where one LEARNS NEW THINGS for which i paid good money.
Prick.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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At least the blazing headlights meant he missed the deer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well Mr Corduroy,
Here's your original post
>Guys, opinions please.
I am currently in the PDS and taking group lessons with ESF, class 3.
This week we have been skiing mostly off piste but firmly within the resort boundaries.
Should i be concerned that the instructor has given us no safety advice and no one carries any safety equipment for off piste skiing?
I know that there are low risk areas but surely this is bad practice.
For those that that know the area yesterday we were skiing knee deep powder in the corridors to the right off the swiss wall (as you look at it).
This is my first time in such areas and although i enjoyed it there was something in my mind that was saying 'this isn't right'
Am i being silly?<
It seems you like to ask questions such as am I being silly, surely this is bad practice etc and when you get an answer you don't like such as, yes you are silly, then you get quite offensive as in the post above.
I can imagine that the ski instructor has given you a similar answer to me, you didn't like it and so you have decided to post this nonsense on the internet. Similarly you didn't like my response and so have have started to post insults which I don't think you would do face to face.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The initial post seemed pretty reasonable to me. If I was in a lesson (or delivering a lesson) asking questions about snowpack stability and the things you look for seems entirely natural. Obviously you don't want to spend a disproportionate amount of time on it, but reassuring a potentially nervous client is a part of the job, as well as helpng them to understand important aspects of skiing off piste.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Corduroy, Shep has much better experience of where you were the second time so he may have a different opinion ... but there are some ropes around the PDS that I'll duck without a qualm. That is not one of them. THe area is relatively prone to both avalanche itself, avalanche from above (and I don't believe it's controlled) and on the top traverse, rock fall.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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doesn't he as an ESF instructor contradict Rule 8 of the FIS rules thing?
Serious question, not flagabboratory 
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Pedantica, yeah, I got very, very lucky and am (touch wood) effectively completely uninjured bar a mild concussion.
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meh, that could have been VERY bad on the wrong stretch of road. Glad you got through it ok.
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^ ^ +1 !
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
nevis1003, The only thing that gets people avalanched is skiing on a slope that is ready to go. So if you can't work it out for yourself
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lol ahh the words of wisdom eh, I don't think you can work it out for yourself either you just guess like everyone else but want to appear clever, you appear to be a bit of a penÍs though
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Given that the ESF were under judicial observation by the Savoie prosecutor after the Val Thorens avalanche involving two ESF groups (who were equipped with beacons) the original question doesn't seem stupid. As a response to the Val Thorens incident the ESF have been doing a lot of work on avalanche safety. Here are some of the results of that effort:
http://www.horspiste.net/web/index.html
According to the ESF a class 3 level group should be familiarising themselves with beacons
http://www.horspiste.net/web/enseignement.html
The ESF were, to a certain extent, caught up in a number of incidents involving French qualified instructor led groups and guides. Frequently UCPA or Club Med employed instructors but that might reflect their client base as ESF instructors seem to prefer their days off for getting caught in avalanches.
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1046-prosecutor-wants-to-ban-instructors-for-5-years/
This is just some information about the context we are in today. There is certainly off piste terrain that the ESF take childrens groups around here that is not in any way avalanche prone so no requirement for beacons for those groups. They are working on technique in unpisted snow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, There wasn't any real time on it to be honest, the first instance i have on my go pro but as it was in a watertight case the only audio is muffled severely. It literally was a two sentence exchange.
I wasn't critical, i didn't challenge at all, it was a simple straight question.
| dennisp wrote: |
doesn't he as an ESF instructor contradict Rule 8 of the FIS rules thing?
Serious question, not flagabboratory |
Not sure on that, i think it says you must respect the signs and not obey them. In my first instance there were no signs, just a rope.
| nevis1003 wrote: |
It seems you like to ask questions such as am I being silly, surely this is bad practice etc and when you get an answer you don't like such as, yes you are silly, then you get quite offensive as in the post above.
I can imagine that the ski instructor has given you a similar answer to me, you didn't like it and so you have decided to post this nonsense on the internet. Similarly you didn't like my response and so have have started to post insults which I don't think you would do face to face. |
As i already stated, the instructor gave no response in the first instance other than "no, we all die today", in all seriousness do you think that was acceptable?
I didn't but i didn't challenge it. You seem to think that there may have been some confrontation or maybe i was an awkward customer. I am not, i simply accepted it at that time and skied on.
You are the only one that posted in such a manner so its to be expected that i might be a little defensive when you suggest my question is nonsense. Everyone here seems to be helpful yet you imply that i am possibly a liar. "Are you sure your really on holiday at all?"
I think its probably best if we just disagree here and move on.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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dennisp, yup, it honestly was the wrong stretch of road and there was traffic in both directions. My survival let alone being nearly completely uninjured is really amazingly lucky, the only choice I made in the whole thing was to avoid other cars before I lost control completely. It feels very surreal as the expectation you carry around is that sort of crash should at best leave you heavily injured.
I was actually recording a timelapse of the drive so have the whole thing in 0.5s increments when I recover the car. Not sure if I'll look at it or just delete it.
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meh, Sounds terrible, I'm sure curiosity would get the better of me and i would have to view those images. Also there could be something or someone else at fault there so for insurance purposes i would hang onto it for a while.
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You know it makes sense.
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At least there weren't sharp drops off the roadside or something to go down
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 2-02-14 14:50; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Corduroy, good point I'll definitely hang on to them for a while. I'm pretty sure I'll take a look but it still makes me nervous for some reason. I recall pretty much the entire event except curiously from the point where I finally lost control up until I was watching the side of the road approach rapidly out of the side window. I have that view and the on-coming headlights when I initially started skiing pretty vividly imprinted in my mind just now!
dennisp, I like that point as well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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meh, It sounds pretty horrendous, I'm really glad you walked away from it. Maybe all the modern safety features in today's car helped and I bet you were wearing a seatbelt. Although it happened loads of years ago I can still recall a headlong trip into a deep ditch in my car, so I'm sure you will recall things, but luckily you should also recall that you weren't hurt at the same time as I do, and that does help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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geeo
user
Posts: 373
Location: scotland
lol ahh the words of wisdom eh, I don't think you can work it out for yourself either you just guess like everyone else but want to appear clever, you appear to be a bit of a penÍs though
[/quote]
I think the fact you think everybody guess's about what's safe off piste shows who's the tool.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
geeo
user
Posts: 373
Location: scotland
lol ahh the words of wisdom eh, I don't think you can work it out for yourself either you just guess like everyone else but want to appear clever, you appear to be a bit of a penÍs though
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I think the fact you think everybody guess's about what's safe off piste shows who's the tool.
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Well if you have the divine power to tell what slopes are safe or not then either bottle and sell it, share it with the rest of us or stfu, else your just making a GUESS based on what you think.. like we all do mate don't try act like some snow god
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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geeo, +1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I fell off a long Poma on my first ever 'on snow' lesson - was very happy that the ESF instructor led me through the off piste and back to try again!! 
But seriously, an instructor taking anyone on steep off piste as pictured should be making sure all have, and can use, avi kit.
No argument.
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reminds me of Australian TO ski guide in Tignes long ago, as we shot thru the off piste gate he whacked the danger/experts only at your own risk/skull&crossbones warning sign with his pole and shouted back read that boys & girls !
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