 Poster: A snowHead
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what is the bet that BASI backs down and the whole thing goes away after pressure from the French trade Union
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And surprise surprise that is the way it went... BASI pulled their proposal, why did they bother tabling it in the first place ?
Of interest is the Dave R from BASI was voted in as an Advisor and Vittorio C. who used to be the BASI International rep and an ISIA advisor until BASI decided to discontinue that role jumped ship and ran for and won a seat on the main ISIA board as VP for Europe from within the Irish ski instructor association, so the British Isles is well represented  ...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, I don't know why BASI bother going, this time they pulled their proposal, last time nobody of any importance bothered turning up. Seems to me like a paid jolly at our expense. Without France fully on board it's pointless.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spyderman, the French representative to ISIA stood for the ISIA Presidential election, but was not voted in. From that I'm guessing that France do want to be onboard with ISIA, although I doubt I'd support the direction they wanted to take the organisation in. I believe this was the first time that every ISIA nation sent a representative to the Congress, which to me sounds like a good thing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
last time nobody of any importance bothered turning up
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Spyderman the last ISIA meeting was Jan 2011 St Anton and 35 of 38 nations were present. in Aviemore in 2010 it was 24 of 38 and all the main players were there. Not sure where you are getting your facts from.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, That's why I said of any importance, look at the 3 nations that didn't bother to turn up in January, kind of says it all.
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In Jan 2011 almost everyone was there as it was during the Interski congress. In Budapest (safety congress) no France or Austria but Germany and Switzerland attended ( and me)! Partly no F or A as they already had their mountain safety course established at a high level. Then in Davos ISIA held a practical off piste/ Mountain safety workshop. BASI and IASI sent their mountain safety trainers along with other nations.
France proposed a candiate for ISIA but lost by quite a big margin. To be fair the meeting seemed quite positive. It is clear that NO organisation will be able to dictate the level required for a professional ski teacher due to the complex laws in each nation. Also in some (but not many) nations ski teaching is regulated by the state. However, what ISIA can do is have a clear and agreed framework and minimum standards for nations with no government regulation, that will make clear what a professional ski teacher is. I think the pyramid system goes a long way to doing this.
For me I would like to see the rights of transient professional ski teachers, travelling with their own groups, fit within the frame work of ISIA. This is already in place within regions in Italy and Austria. Becoming an establised ski teacher in a foreign state is another issue all together. ISIA will not work as automatic equivalence, but it would be idea if the stamp and card could act as a reference when joining another system.
Example: I want to take MY group to Italy as an ISIA teacher for a week (apply and get on with it). I want to move to Italy and join a ski school or work independently (use my ISIA qualification as an entry in to the system, pass any outstanding modules in line with the law of that nation). This is how I see ISIA being useful in the future.
Also the other nations look for the ISIA stamp as a refernce point to for applying for a visa and job (NZ, Aus, USA) and so on.
There is a desire from all nations to use ISIA for better branding and building awarness with our customers.
Interesting times ahead, and like has been mentioned the British Isles are will represented!!
PSG
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Wayne, I can't speak for the Snow Centre, but just in case PSG doesn't see your question he will say yes that's fine. There is a policy for external instructors who wish to teach their own clients there, and if you meet the criteria you are allowed to use the main slope to teach.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
Ok I was just kidding.
As for meeting the criteria, do you allow green fishing hats?
If not I'm not playing.
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Wayne, appreciate you were joking, but there is a new policy which does exactly what you suggested - I just signed it, in fact. Green fishing hats are welcomed, but only if worn under a helmet
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wayne, Ha ha! But yes Rob is right, I do recognise independent instructors and invite them to bring their customers to our centre. We have a very structured policy (rather like the Italian region of Sud Tirol) and do allow such activity. As far as I am concerned it all revenue on the hill!
PSG
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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....cue dark looks from underemployed Hemel locals as Wayne rolls in each week with coach loads of Wiganers bringing their own Pukka pies, Vimto and Mint Balls and not spending any money on that overpriced frothy coffee or southern nancy beer.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| skimottaret, That's why I said of any importance, look at the 3 nations that didn't bother to turn up in January, kind of says it all. |
I think you are confusing meetings.. the Jan2011 meeting the three that didnt show was Chile, turkey and Serbia hardly the powerhouses of skiing. The one that was poorly attended was a working meeting on Off Piste safety modules as Pete mentioned...
In my view BASI need to continue to actively support the ISIA and not sit on the fence trying to appease FEMP's
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar and gilleski,
Hang on, hang on. I “know” how people down south live. All you cockneys (that’s anyone from south of Birmingham) live in a state of perpetual strife somewhere between “Eastenders”, “Made In Chelsea” and “ The only Way Is Essex”. This, added to the fact that I doubt very much I could get 50 people together, who had all the injections required to travel too far down the M6, means that the proposed ski trip to Hemel may be a non-starter.
Anyway I don’t have time now, got to feed my ferrets before my shift down the coal mine
Oh well, maybe next year 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wayne, We could send some sample snow up north so the ferret-lovers will know what you're talking about, if that helps.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne, I doubt you would pass the language test to be honest.
Geeezahhhhh!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Any news on ski length? Turning radius for ET and other tests? It affects my GS race ski rental possibilities. Thank you for your information
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No changes for the tests. Might just make getting skis harder in the future.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Interestingly NZIA have a ISIA speed test running end of season here in New Zealand. They have a 3 day camp running before it, will be interesting seeing how it works for them and card status and how many get it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jjc, be interesting to hear your views as to what the "real world" pass standard is compared to the Eurotest
Looks as though BASI will be running a Eurotest this year 05.02.2013 – Nevis Range (The Goose)
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gilleski, thanks. Quick read of Vittorio's presentation and it reads like the BASI L3 Mountain Safety course is closer to the safety requirements of the ISIA Card rather than the Stamp. Is this correct?
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rob@rar, From what I saw in Budapest, BASI and IASI level 3 mountain safety are much closer to the card requirments. Some of the nations are quite basic in their first course. I remember the BASI mountain safety course was based on the French one (back in the day when it was introduced for the then National ski teacher). BASI and IASI are well placed in this area and I remember our presentations went down well in Budapest (you can read then on ISIA web site)
PSG
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gilleski, thanks. Very interesting.
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From the recent BASI news pg. 26 Eurotest update BASI members are now entitled to take part in a maximum of 5 Eurotests per season... Previously this was unlimited and the French had a max of 2 attempts per season.
With a BASI pass rate of 6% last season seems to me your typical BASI member will now take years to pass.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, from pg 26 of the BASI news it is also apparent that there is a cost to BASI of supporting the Eurotest of which only a small number of members benefit. Is it fair that lower qualified members subsciptions have subsidised members who wish to take the test?
I have missed seeing this thread every time I login on Snowheads.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dunk wrote: |
| skimottaret, from pg 26 of the BASI news it is also apparent that there is a cost to BASI of supporting the Eurotest of which only a small number of members benefit. Is it fair that lower qualified members subsciptions have subsidised members who wish to take the test? |
The Eurotest fees were increased substantially a few years ago to cover the cost of sending openers & representatives to eurotests. The openers etc will now only attend certain eurotests. Will the cost for non attended eurotests be reduced?
Don't hold your breath
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Another thing to note is that they have removed all restrictions on ski length and radius. You can now rock up on any skis, they dont have to be FIS compliant. Much more sensible and in line with the ISIA test...
Dunk, A fair point that hasn't really been debated but in my view the association should subsidise some costs as they need to supply openers and a TD to ensure fairness..
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You know it makes sense.
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Much more sensible and in line with the ISIA test...
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Anything other than a GS ski and your likely to hurt yourself, would never advise anything less. Doesn't have to be new or upto date regs wise but anyone thinking another ski is better suited please reconsider.
ISIA have really put their foot in it by starting a GS test, their original "whats the need of a speed test?" was a fair point. But to do a 180 turn and jump in with their own Easy ET is laughable.
The costs benefit the whole organisation including all the qualifications, imagine if we only had a structure upto the ISIA level, who are trying to lower the standard in many countries eyes. We'd never get the recognition we deserve and this would lead to BASI as a brand being less recognised and respected.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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jjc james, what i meant was that it seemed pretty stupid having min radius specs of 21 Meter when you cant even get those skis anymore. seems sensible to use whatever equipment will make you fastest in the course as set , whether they are womens 23 , mens 27 or 35 metre or ???
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Poster: A snowHead
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That makes sense, GS skis are fine any setup. The way the courses are set i always use the 27m radius skis, sometimes in Alpe Du Huez i could do with it 27m+!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jjc james, what do you guys recommend typically? seems like most guys are on old 21's or womens 23's or does it depend on the course??
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For candidates I'd always look to get them a 21-23, although all the guys that passed with us last year were on 27m FIS GS skis that were legal in FIS races last year. But they had also all started off on the 21-23m skis at the beginning of their training.
So perhaps I'll have to rethink!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jjc james wrote: |
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Much more sensible and in line with the ISIA test...
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Anything other than a GS ski and your likely to hurt yourself, would never advise anything less. Doesn't have to be new or upto date regs wise but anyone thinking another ski is better suited please reconsider.
ISIA have really put their foot in it by starting a GS test, their original "whats the need of a speed test?" was a fair point. But to do a 180 turn and jump in with their own Easy ET is laughable.
The costs benefit the whole organisation including all the qualifications, imagine if we only had a structure upto the ISIA level, who are trying to lower the standard in many countries eyes. We'd never get the recognition we deserve and this would lead to BASI as a brand being less recognised and respected. |
How much easier is the ISIA GS test compared to the eurotest? I know that euro is 0 fis points plus 18% for men effectively and that the ISIA version is 50 fis points plus 12.5% for men, but I'm having difficulty relating the two.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It is pretty hard to relate the two. The ISIA test could be easier or harder than a eurotest on any given day because of the vast differences that can exist between 1 50 point skier to another.
When did they get the 50 points (eg did they have 20 but now have 50 because there points have been loaded due to not racing recently)
Are they on 50 points but about to score 40's/30's in young guys that can happen over few weeks
Did they score 50 points in sud tirol with bib 140 with a WC winner or did they get them in NZ/AUS with bib 30 or even the likes of Greece at a give away race set up for someone to score points.
The list of reasons why an ISIA test could be variable goes on and on.
So the answer is it is not really comparable.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jjc wrote: |
It is pretty hard to relate the two. The ISIA test could be easier or harder than a eurotest on any given day because of the vast differences that can exist between 1 50 point skier to another.
When did they get the 50 points (eg did they have 20 but now have 50 because there points have been loaded due to not racing recently)
Are they on 50 points but about to score 40's/30's in young guys that can happen over few weeks
Did they score 50 points in sud tirol with bib 140 with a WC winner or did they get them in NZ/AUS with bib 30 or even the likes of Greece at a give away race set up for someone to score points.
The list of reasons why an ISIA test could be variable goes on and on.
So the answer is it is not really comparable. |
I see what you're saying. So effectively the people running the ISIA test would need to do something similar to what is done for the euros and have calibration runs for the openers each year?
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ISIA test is far easier, they compared the openers at an ET, plus the reliability of the 50 points skiers was... well questionable to say the least!
Quote from an unnamed Eurotest Opener
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jjc james, the costs only benefit the ISTD's. Tell me what benefits a lower level member gets?
Yes it is fantastic that BASI is recognised as a high level qualification, again for those with the top level.
Should we subsidise members who are going on to a greater earning potential?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hi all, an informative discussion. ... Here is some information on how BASI sold out their members back in 2006... a bunch of snowboarders got given ISTD's and 22 who passed the Eurotest at the Garmisch had their tests recognised after the French initially refused to because more or less everyone passed after the german openers went slow as a protest to get their guys through.
The interesting bit is that BASI agrees to recognize, at European level, no other qualification than of ISTD.
http://www.ec-oe.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Publications/Ski_instructors_in_France/Piece_5_Protocole_SNMSF_BASI.pdf.pdf
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Here is some information on how BASI sold out their members back in 2006...
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No surprise there. Same situation as occurred when the Alpine Grade 1's were offered 'free entries' in 2002 (approx).
For those of you who don't know; in 2000 the EU gave France a derogation from one EU Directive because France claimed that the Eurotest was a critical test of SAFETY, (I haven't checked the webcast but I have been told that the CEO mentioned this SAFETY derogation at the AGM). A requirement was that the French present evidence that the Eurotest was a measure of safety, clearly this was impossible to do, so the French offered BASI the free entries instead, when BASI accepted the French could then turn round and say that BASI (and DE) no longer objected to the Eurotest so there was no need to present evidence.
Neat tactics by France to outwit the opposition, but just not cricket!
In the case of the snowboarders France pulled the same stunt. Just before Advocate General Sharpston of the European Court of Justice presented her judgement (see earlier posts) France waved the snowboarder deal under certain noses. In fact they should have waited, the Sharpston Judgement ridiculed the idea of Snowboarders having to do a 'eurotest' as a test of safety.
Having said that, these agreements are just agreements, they are not EU Law.
So that explains the history BUT here is where we need to be very concerned. It is the obvious intention of France to use this ridiculous passport thing to sneak all of their protectionist policies into EU legislation by the back door - or should that be 'passage derriere'.
Members should do everything in their power to stop the passport thing by encouraging the Board to withdraw from this pretentious Memorandum of Understanding.
For the sake of clarification please be aware that of all the professions in Europe none of them were interested in piloting the scheme. Which was a bummer for the European Commisioner for the Internal Market and Services, Michel Barnier (look him up on Wikipedia) because this passport thing was his idea. BUT M. Barnier is a born & bred Savoie boy from a small town near Meylan, yes the same place where BASI signed the document posted by "unoriginal", and he was for many years the President of the Council of Savoie and then Senator for Savoie before becoming a European Commisioner. Curious then that the only 'professional' group who would volunteer to pilot his scheme were French ski instructors.
Anyway, it is easy for us (the ordinary members, all 5,800 of us) to think that we are alone. Try this link to see what the Belgians think.
http://www.ec-oe.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Publications/EC-OE_Presentations/EU_Consultation_paper.pdf
One last thing. It is good to see some of the more experienced heads in BASI such as Phil Smith suggesting that the Eurotest has nothing to do with ski instructing. He describes it as a 'filter' but a filter lets through more than it blocks, clearly the Eurotest does not do this, I would describe it for what it is - a protectionist barrier.
Not sure if things will change much as a consequence of the AGM.
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FAQ
