 Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward, rjs, thank you for the answers.
A friend suggested the masters route, not just for experience but also to get (possibly) enough points for exemption. He believed it would be easier, as Masters make allowances for age................
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dunk, Age is only used to determine start order in FIS Masters races, older ones start first.
I think you will find that you get a lower bib number in Eurotests.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dunk, There is a rule that you can't race Masters and World Cup in the same season, I have been at a race with somebody who had retired from WC the year before.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jjc wrote: |
| stewart woodward, I imagine they only do it for regular alpine, otherwise you could enter a FIS freestyle discipline and score under 100 fis points coming last as they go the opposite way to 1000. |
I applied for a Eurotest exemption on the basis of having placed 29th in World Cup Moguls, amongst other results. I was aware that the French Moguls Team had been given an exemption. BASI awarded the exemption and gave me ISTD (I had completed every other part normally). I then applied for Equivalence, but without having a Eurotest certificate, and instead included documentation of my results and confirmation of team place. Perhaps I should have included details of my previous 4th place in the French Champs? Anyway after several months they had just asked for more info about my standard and hadn't said yes or no so I went and passed the Eurotest to get it out of the way. I think I put them in a difficult situation and they weren't sure what to do. Most likely some of the decision makers thought I should get the exemption, and some were concerned about what that could mean in future. If I'd placed in top 10 at World Cup Moguls then I think they would have had to give me the exemption as I would have clearly shown the same level as the people that had been exempted.
Legally, I think that because I had the ISTD then they would have had to give me the Equivalence if I'd pushed it hard enough because my qualification is equal to theirs and the Eurotest is not a separate qualification. However it was easier to pass it than to fight in court, or wait any longer for them to actually make a decision and try to justify it. When I passed and was given the certificate by Marc Vernier, he said that I might still have been able to get an exemption, but that this way was much easier...I took that to mean that he morally supported my case, but it was making his job difficult to try and explain the situation to his bosses and get it through.
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simon_bates, wow so being ranked 29th in the world and 4th at the French Champs isnt good enough for the French, yet they exempt their whole team
yet another example of the test being PURELY a barrier to entry. ps well done on passing and giving them Frenchies the two fingers !! (Marc V excepted )
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David Murrie has put a very interesting post on FB (BASI members group page) regarding age and the Eurotest, it makes good reading.
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Thanks for highlighting that Dunk. A very interesting debate going on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Would I be right in thinking that, as a non-member, I can't access the BASI site or the FB page Dunk refers to? (I'm not, nor ever will be, an instructor but am quite interested in the EU law aspect of all this.)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Pedantica, You must be accepted by a moderator to access that site but a friendly instructor you know has put you forward form membership  but it has seen an explosion of debate after a few posts by some senior people who stuck their heads above the parapit... At the moment nothing new on the legal front other than the article i linked to but lots more awareness of the issue. There are around 1500 in the group so a reasonable portion of the membership....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, thanks. Done. 
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You know it makes sense.
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Dunk, cheers
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Seems the debate has been stymied over on the BASI page and the whole thing removed!
Not sure if it's the fault of people making attacks on one particular individual (if that's what they did, I missed the fireworks if that was the case) or the result of someone wanting it removed because it was airing an issue they were uncomfortable with - either way I think an explanation would be useful and help to keep things transparent!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Be great if someone could find a cached version of some of the pertinent fb posts and publish them on here.
It's annoying that such a great debate has been removed because of petty squabbles and personal attacks.
paul
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't actually know who removed the thread (it wasn't me, so either the other Admin who is just a normal BASI member, or Facebook themselves). But it had got personal - although it's a shame just the offending posts weren't removed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| roga wrote: |
| Seems the debate has been stymied over on the BASI page and the whole thing removed! |
Not good.
I see Julian Griffiths has posted an interesting item regarding a rumored significant change to BASI's representation within the ISIA. Not good if true, although it would seem to confirm the unpublished strategy the board is pursuing on 'our' behalf.
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AndAnotherThing..,
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roga wrote:
Seems the debate has been stymied over on the BASI page and the whole thing removed!
Not good.
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the thread was removed by either the original poster or Facebook as it had crossed the line from healthy debate to a personal attack. It's a real shame that some posters spoilt it for those who were taking part in a reasoned debate as now the whole thread has been lost – before I’d had the chance to summarise it and report it up to the Board.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If anyone has any of the older emails you get when new posts have been added that would be helpful for me - I'll then put it in my report. I only have the last few emails with the last few posts.
Thanks.
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Some news regarding the ISIA test
There is an ISIA congress coming up in May and I have heard on the grapevine that the ISIA test will be expanded to include a timed test for Snowboard and Nordic in addition to the existing Alpine Technical test. Snowboard will be a boardercross run to FIS spec with two reference riders at 100 points, pass time is 15% male and 20% female within the reference rider.
VERY INTERESTING as well is a proposal by BASI to change the by laws of the ISIA itself which are last dated 2008, the proposal was made a while back and from what I can gather will be voted on at the Congress, France unsurprisingly has categorically rejected most of the proposals which include:
"ISIA members have to recognise as equivalent the licenses so deemed by the Technical Commission, according to the minimum Standards."
"ISIA members have to work in order to push the legal authorities of their countries to recognize as being equivalent and useful to give right of establishment the licenses mentioned"
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| Quote: |
Snowboard will be a boardercross run to FIS spec with two reference riders at 100 points, pass time is 15% male and 20% female within the reference rider.
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so you will have to be a % off a guys time from his points that are not awarded based on time? Makes sense 
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jjc, isn't boardercross a timed race?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| jjc, isn't boardercross a timed race? |
I am sure jjc will be along shortly to explain fully but in the meantime here are the FIS rules http://www.fis-ski.com/data/document/pointsrulebook1112.pdf
Enjoy reading
Looking at the current FIS points the best brits are Thomas Banks(104.4 points) & Zoe Gillings (550 points). The higher your points the higher your ranking.
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Haha ok, here we go  there is a timed section the same as skicross called qualifying. After qualifying the top 32 or 48 go into the heats of 4 or 6 at a time. The points are then allocated by position on a sliding scale from whatever the penalty is. World cup has a maximum of 1000, Europa cup 500 and lower again for national champs and FIS races. The penalty is worked out depending on the top guys in the race. The crazy thing is the drop off is so quick http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=FS&raceid=6236. So by 32nd you only score 26 at world cup even though in guys to make top 32 you have to be inside a second of the top in world at some races. You could on the other hand go to a south american cup, Austalian New Zealand cup etc where a few top guys are, finish 10 seconds off in qualifying come 13th out of 14 and make 100.
For example you could finish top 30 at world cup all season and have 40 ish points and then make 100+ being a long way out time whys else where. Points in freestyle are not a great reflection on performance.
Guys used to come over from the Nor am races ranked right inside the top 100 in the world because there had been some "good" races over there and then be 5 seconds from making the top 32 at europa cup from starting in the top seed.
I thought the ISIA Alpine test had some real problems in terms of how they measured the ability of the opener but this would be far worse!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stewart woodward, jjc, thanks for the info.
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There is also a timed test for Nordic but pretty complicated
stewart woodward, No the ISIA tests are not calibrated back to FIS 0. the % are added to the average of the openers & closers times
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
stewart woodward, No the ISIA tests are not calibrated back to FIS 0. the % are added to the average of the openers & closers times |
skimottaret That test refers to skiers, this test is for snowboarders.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Exactly due to calibration the eurotest is a objective test of technical ability. Although the openers are all of different standards because of calibration the standard remains from test to test.
The snowboard test suggested means you could have to be 15% off potentially one of the fastest in the world who cant make it through the first round of heats or 15% off someone 10 seconds slower. The standard required from test to test could be huge!
The same as the ISIA GS test, as i understand it the pass time is from a 50 point skier although the standard between one 50 point skier to another can be quite a bit...Not to the same scale as freestyle points but enough to have tests with very different outcomes due to the openers rather the candidates.
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Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward, The snowboarders test is a new proposal, i dont have an electronic version but in summary.
boardercross basic time of 40 seconds +- 10%, contain steep hill curves, rollers jumps. the better of two times for candidates. Reference boarders must have approx 100 FIS points, ref boarders A and B will perform the boardercross at the beginning and end and the reference time is calculated from the average of the start and ed times. then 15 % male and 20% female are added to calculate the pass times. They dont calibrate back to FIS 0 as in the ET
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On the face of it, the snowboard test seems reasonable (although I have no idea on how sensible the FIS points and %s are). I've argued for the same thing in the past. The cost and time commitment required to go and do FIS boardercross races is pretty harsh.
If you accept that a timed GS run is a fair way to measure the standard of a skier, then a time BX run would seem to be the fairest snowboard equivalent. (Snowboard GS being very, very, very niche and requiring specialist equipment which is very different from what is used by 99% of snowboarders! World Cup snowboard GS is actually run as Parallel Giant Slalom).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stevomcd, The concept is good, although no idea where they will find the tracks and as i mentioned the fis point idea for openers is terrible!
If they can find a track and find a fair way of setting times then it would be an excellent idea.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah, the tracks is a difficult question. Plenty of resorts have permanent or semi-permanent boardercross tracks in place, but they're generally very tame to make them tourist friendly.
Not sure really even what my own view on that is. Does it take just as much skill to ride a tourist-friendly track very fast (e.g. with some big berms, tight corners, big rollers and a few "rhythm sections") as it does to ride a "pro" track very fast (which might contain big jumps/drops with big consequences if it goes wrong at speed).
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stevomcd, Exactly world of pain for would be snowboard instructors if they are training on pro courses at speed. It sort of works as a concept but if there's an effective age barrier in skiing then it would be even worse in BX as there can't be that many 35+ yer olds willing to put their body on the line at the level required of pro BX. Conditions and course prep play a bigger factor too I suspect.
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fatbob, not sure about that actually. A lot of the boardercross (and skiercross) pros are treating it almost as "retirement" from other disciplines.
I'm in pretty-much exactly the position you describe (currently 33, hoping to achieve ISIA in the next year or so) and I'm not too phased at the prospect of hitting a big BX course. The freestyle requirements for ISIA are actually more intimidating - hitting jumps which are just as big, but landing tricks over them, or getting air out of a full-size pipe.
I somehow managed to ride a French national champs BX course a few years back during pre-race practise and there was nothing terribly scary in it. Big spectator-friendly jump right at the start, but otherwise no big deal.
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stevomcd, But that's pro athletes - Once you've bagged the Hannenkahn and the Lauberhorn I can see a little skiercross is a wind down for the likes of Rahlves, likewise your top freestyle boarders or guys like Terje who'll probably still be winning the Baker Banked Slalom at 70. Against the clock for the "teaching" focused aspirant?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Against the clock for the "teaching" focused aspirant?
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Aye, that's me! I might change my mind once I'm chucking myself down a course, but my immediate thought is "bring it on!".
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The ISIA congress starts tomorrow and BASI had submitted some sweeping changes to the By Laws and Statues of the organisation at the last congress which include:
"ISIA members have to recognise as equivalent the licenses so deemed by the Technical Commission, according to the minimum Standards."
"ISIA members have to work in order to push the legal authorities of their countries to recognize as being equivalent and useful to give right of establishment the licenses mentioned"
These changes are meant to be voted on at this congress would greatly help the working rights of all instructors, not just those at L4 throughout Europe and the rest of the world. Unsurprisingly the French Union has categorically rejected the proposed amendments.
what is the bet that BASI backs down and the whole thing goes away after pressure from the French trade Union
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FAQ
