 Poster: A snowHead
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Aurial, Welcome.
You mention insurance a couple of times there. Makes no difference to the victim(s) of course. If there was no such thing as liability insurance, organisations like SCGB would be a whole lot less lax about how they manage their whole operation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, sweetheart, would you operate your business without liability insurance?  You must have had an atack of the vapours (did the Saab just pass by?) Without liability insurance I doubt if any organization would operate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, you miss my point. Aurial seems more concerned about being insured should tragedy strike than avoiding the tragedy in the first place. Insurance is only there to eleviate the financial pain of an unforseen event (accident); it cannot replace lost lives. SCGB should be concentrating on how they avoid the same happening again and if, hypothetically, there was no such thing as liability insurance, they'd certainly be concentrating a bit harder on all aspects of their operation than they appear to be doing right now.
Mmmmmmmmm Saaaaabo!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bode Swiller, ah. I didn't realise you had inside knowledge of what the SCGB has done and is doing to to avoid a reccurence of the accident.
Soft, 'tis late. We must stop seeing each other like this. People will talk. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, All I know is the contents of the last 26 pages... some of it posted by reps. Doesn't fill me with confidence.
I'm not driving all the way to Lincolnshire now. You can forget it. It's your turn anyway. Night.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The recent death of a local 12 year old child caught in an avalanche while skiing with his parents in Klosters/Parsenn should be of interest.
The parents were locals and presumably had some incling of the mountain and its risks (avalanche danger level 3 at the time). They skied off piste across a short traverse from the top of the lift (and very close to the piste). This would have have almost certainly been an "OK" zone under the ski club rules. From the attached link you will see that the avalanche actually comes down on to the piste.
http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/ich-waere-auch-in-den-hang-gefahren-80692
FWIW, I've skied in that area many times.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Levitt, I can't imagine how those parents must feel right now. (Insurance can't take that pain away!)
You're right, that looks like it would be OK if "The policy for the terrain where reps and leaders can now ski off-piste states that off-piste skiing will generally be closer to the piste and only involve a short ski to return to the marked runs" is in fact the advice given to reps.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Levitt, I can't imagine how those parents must feel right now. (Insurance can't take that pain away!)
You're right, that looks like it would be OK if "The policy for the terrain where reps and leaders can now ski off-piste states that off-piste skiing will generally be closer to the piste and only involve a short ski to return to the marked runs" is in fact the advice given to reps. |
Tut tut. I thought you might have calmed your beating heart in the morning. The advice given to punters is that the areas they will be skiing will involve but a short return to the pistes. it does not go on to say that any such area will be fine. I believe your local authority will have details of English comprehension classes. With luck the tutors will draw out the point about not extrapolating inferences too far from given facts. You should enrol.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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achilles, all this illustrates a point perfectly... the Club's guidelines are so flaky that nobody understands them, least of all some reps (I refer Your Royal Gnomeness to the last 26 pages).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bode Swiller, I may be wrong but I doubt it says anywhere in the guidelines that if you are skiing close to the piste you can take leave of all your senses
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Bode Swiller,
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looks like it would be OK if "The policy for the terrain where reps and leaders can now ski off-piste states that off-piste skiing will generally be closer to the piste and only involve a short ski to return to the marked runs" is in fact the advice given to reps
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Hang on, I agree with you that that the guidance is woolly but closeness to the piste isn't the ONLY criterion that the reps have to take into account. It wouldn't have been OK for other reasons in this instance, as was pretty much visible to the naked eye - extremely steep at the point at which the avi was set off. Apparently many people had skied there before, it's a well-known route, but were, over the course of a day or two, moving further and further over to a less safe pitch to find fresh tracks. I heard that the boy was not wearing a transceiver and that it took a very long time to find him. It was scary to see the avalanche spread over the piste...
FWIW, I skied off-piste with the Klosters rep last week and felt perfectly safe. He declined to take us on the Madrisa itineraries.
[I now see that I've effectively repeated achilles's point and, because I've taken so long about it, Arno's as well. Sorry.]
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, Hurtle, the quote I used is taken from the opening post on this whole thread. Evidently from a letter that went to reps.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I agree with you that that the guidance is woolly
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Hurtle, going over old ground here but that's surely the point. An organisation like SCGB can't afford to be woolly about life & death issues.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller, Absolutely. I'm not condoning the wording of the guidance and indeed, if I were a rep, I'd be nervous about going off-piste with the punters at all at the moment! But, like achilles and Arno, I thought you'd drawn too much of an inference in this case.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thank you for that, Levitt. What this says to me is that skiing is not a risk-free sport. If you want it to be, then DON'T GO SKIING (although the SCGB could still be for you, as it is for DG  ). Assess the risk, and your own ability, and ski appropriately. My German is getting pretty rusty, but I think that that article says that the parents were local country people (father a hunter) and the son was one of the best skiers in the local club - so far from clueless idiots. That slope does look fairly steep, but every slope like that in every resort will be covered in tracks - and I would imagine very few of those tracks will be guides or SCGB reps. People ski these slopes - so get used to it.
I see no reason why that slope should be outside the SCGB rules, but I would doubt that many groups would do it (typical groups I've been with would contain skiiers that would probably not be safe on slopes like that). Accidents happen, and avalanche predicition is not a precise science. If you never skied any avalanche-prone slope you'd never ski anything remotely interesting - a point Nigel Shepherd makes during his avalanche talks - and every time you ski you have to make a safety assessment (on piste as much as off - although your on-piste criteria may be different from your off-). Due to it's aspect though I would have taken a substantial degree of care in traversing it - probably 40+m separation between individuals in any group.
Bode Swiller, achilles, all good fun, but not very edifying. "Get a room" - would MK be a halfway point?.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So........... Can the SCGB take people off piste? Does this refer to "true" off piste in the back bowls that require a hike or is the ungroomed area between the pistes!
No slagging please, just a simple answer to a simple question! Or is that the problem, the SCGB can not define what is "off piste"!
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Roy Hockley, Yes they can take people off-piste. 'Off-piste' is fairly easy to define (see references to pregnancy, passim) and includes ungroomed areas between pistes. The problem is that of defining SAFE off-piste areas: the recent guidance offered on this aspect - which is not, however, intended to be the whole story on safety guidance - is vague. Does this sum up the last 25 pages or so?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, come off it - the letter seems pretty clear that this is an *additional* safety measure. it isn't saying that they will abandon all other safety measures
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Arno, without going back over all the posts, I'm just making the point that most people (including reps) seem to be confused or uncertain as to what the reps can/cannot now do. SCGB need to sort that out surely.
In normal everyday life, when things go tragically wrong, the typical response from those responsible is to communicate clearly to all concerned (a) what happened (b) how it's being handled (c) what lessons have been learned (d) what's being done to make sure it never happens again. This whole thing is shrouded in secrecy and dribs and drabs are slowly emerging on forums like this. Not the way to do it is it? I'm embarrassed for them. A leadership issue.
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Bode Swiller, I don't disagree with any of that, save to say that the secrecy element is probably, at least in part, outwith their control.
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Bode Swiller, I agree that it is somewhat confusing, although I don't think the content of the letter has made much difference to that. I think (and this has been said before) it probably stems from the SCGB's status more generally - it's not clear whether it's a commercial organisation or a members' club or whether its one in some circumstances and the other in other circumstances and if so which circumstances...
on your second point, i'm not sure that's true in the world of insurance and litigation unfortunately. you're not supposed to admit liability if you bump your car into someone else (even if it is patently obvious) and the same principle seems to be applying here
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno,
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on your second point, i'm not sure that's true in the world of insurance and litigation unfortunately. you're not supposed to admit liability if you bump your car into someone else (even if it is patently obvious) and the same principle seems to be applying here
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Quite so. (I think this was covered somewhere in the first 25 pages! )
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Arno, an example of what I'm saying would be last week's BA crash landing. Nobody died but a few were injured enough to need hospitalisation. The injured and the mentally scarred have years in which to launch a claim for damages (and there are bound to be some). None of that stopped the BA disaster plan coming into play... they told the world as much as they knew and we all feel like we're in the picture and able to see that BA are fully in control of the situation, doing everything they can. Result = we have respect for them, we'll keep flying, their image remains high. Imagine if they'd said "Oh well, nobody died, we have other planes and all pilots are being told to aim a little bit further down the runway just in case!"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, youare a very naught y little boy. You are well aware that the SCGB will have been constrained by its insurance company as to what it can say. You are also well aware that a corporate giant such as BA will be more able to negotiate with its insurance company as to what it can release to the public to maintain good PR. If I did not know you as a gentle child of such a normally sweet disposition, I could have been trapped into the impression that you had malice for the SCGB. I am so glad that is not the case, but do behave.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Swiller, you've inspired me. The World's Favourite Ski Club will commence operations next winter: British Hoorays
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Bode Swiller,
It's only a matter of time before BA annouces that it's planes will only fly "by the side of the runway".
Well I never, all those people on the committee but the insurance company calls the shots.
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You know it makes sense.
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DB, haven't BA just proved to us that there's no such thing as "a little bit off-piste"... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| DB wrote: |
Bode Swiller,
Well I never, all those people on the committee but the insurance company calls the shots. |
When it is an incident likely to result in an insurance claim, the insurance company generally do call the shots.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
| .......Well I never, all those people on the committee but the insurance company calls the shots. |
Can you tell me of a small organization where it does not? If you can, you've also described a small organization with inadequate cover.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 23-01-08 14:35; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, there may well be a limit to what SCGB can say (we don't know, actually) but they should be demonstrating strong leadership in the face of a crisis... or we wouldn't still be in the dark and 26 pages on. By now we should be discussing how well they'd handled the situation and what great improvements they'd made to their safety standards etc etc. But no, they prefer rumour mill mayhem.
Accusing me of malice in your eccentric roundabout way cuts no ice. I have a growing lack of respect from them tho'. GB deserves a better national ski club.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, I don't do "miffed". But I can read and I see what I see (like most others do). Fully understand your defensive stance for your precious ski club. You are a great advert for them
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller, if you read on fora some of the aviation professionals feelings about how the BA accident has been handled, you might see that there is a widespread feeling that BA have by no means told us all they know!
For instance - modern flight management systems are able to give in real time, and by rapid download later, the approach profiles for their planes. This kit did work on the BA plane, and is separate from the voice and data recorders. No one is saying yet what they showed. For instance a commercial pilot mate of mine who is well placed to understand a lot of airline regulatory stuff told me that if anyone flies an "Unstabilised" or unothodox approach, this data is immediately available, and the pilots can expect a very rapid call for tea and bickies to discuss it at head office.
BA have this info and a lot more, and it has not (rightly IMHO) been put in the public domain. Pilots have been put before the press as heroes (which they probably are), before the AAIB have concluded there is no pilot error.
My point is that I think this is about BAs PR disater plan - ie choose BA and be flown by heroes - rather than a full open sharing of the information at their disposal. 
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 23-01-08 16:53; edited 1 time in total
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I have wondered about the BA press release - but didn't want to get diverted here when I replied earlier. I think there is a high chance that the accident was not caused by pilot error - and something like a sensor fault or software bug was to blame (of course such faults could be the result of maintenance error rather or a manufacturer's fault, but we have no way of knowing at the moment). But on the other hand, I was surprised that pilot error was implicitly ruled out so quickly by BA. We digress - but perhaps it is about time in this thread.
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stoatsbrother, I can't argue with that but, if you took a poll among their normal customers, it would probably be perceived that they did the right things at the right time and in a professional manner.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, exactly! that's modern media relations for you... and given that the Daily Mail hasn't published a "Ski Club Shame" article in the last year or two (and yes I do remember that article from before...) perhaps the SCGB is also managing the media reasonably well?
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stoatsbrother, have to say I'm amazed nothing got reported in the UK press at the time. As we all see on here the press pick up on most fatal ski accidents involving Brits. Good media relations can't stop the press reporting events however, so I suspect the incident just slipped under the radar. The real test will probably be when the unfortunate rep stands trial.
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