 Poster: A snowHead
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saikee, Were they the higher speed rated version? It's not as vital to me on my forester as the car is a bit more of an all rounder than a pure road car and the nokians also work well on muddy tracks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Scarpa,
I managed to get the winter tyre at the same rating as the summer tyre. A V rated tyre is supposed to be enough for 149mph. Using a lower rating may have an insurance issue in a claim as the insuring company can refuse the claim on the ground the owner was not using the correct equipment. Certain tyres in certain sizes may only be obtainable in a limited fixed ratings.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| saikee wrote: |
I believe winter tyre should be treated as winter equipment and replaced with the summer tyre when the season is over.
I run a set of Nokia winter tyres on my 3 litre Subaru and find them not as solid as the stock tyre in summer for the high speed driving.
Last week I got a set of winter tyres, Dunlop 4D, for the wife's Golf GTI. I could feel a certain amount of free movement if the car is driven hard around corners. The winter tyre is V rated too but the stock high speed summer tyre is definitely more suitable for the summer use.
A winter tyre must have the continuous ring cut up to form block pattern, good for digging, for the "mud & snow" use. The basic design is to have the additional zig zag grooves which actually subdivide each block further into smaller blocks like a brush made of a large number of small tiny rubber erasers at its head. You can try to prise your finger into the small blocks between the zig zag grooves to see how flexible the tyre has been deliberately arranged for your use. For high speed driving stiff suspension is preferred and so the low profile tyre. Therefore winter tyre by its basic design requirement is less satisfactory for hard summer use. So don't get caught using the right equipment for the wrong application.. |
It's not often that I agree 100% with you, but in my experience (Nissan Murano EU 2006 +2010, dunlop and bridgestone) you are absolutely correct.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hells bells, but remember that M + S means "suitable for high st shopping" - not "effective in snow and low temperatures".
Winter tyres have a snowflake and a liitle mountain logo on them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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But the fact that tyres say M & S does not, in itself, mean they are not suitable for snow.....
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pam w, No, but it doesn't mean they'll be any better than ordinary tyres either. I believe more to do with ice and temperatures....
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under a new name, But you can get m&s tyres which have the mountain and snowflake symbol
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris, Yes, you can. But it's the snowflake/mountain that matters.
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under a new name, we've always had M&S all-season tyres , no snowflake. Had no problems driving in snow with them at all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Oh and the reply to hubbies query to the neighbour re the tyres? "Of course they're fine".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We all know by now that the "M+S" symbol is defined by the Rubber Manufacturer's Association:
http://www.rma.org/getfile.cfm?ID=966&type=publication
(not sure if the original document is still available, but it is here:)
http://web.archive.org/web/20110108100015/http://rma.org/getfile.cfm?ID=966&type=publication
All it defines is that:
| Quote: |
1. New Tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following equirements based on mold dimensions:
~ a. Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
~ b. A mimimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
~ c. Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.
2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25% based on mold dimensions. |
To sport a "Mountain and Snowflake" symbol the tyre must demonstrate at least 10% more grip in snow than a standard tyre:
http://www.rma.org/getfile.cfm?ID=1045&type=publication
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 19-11-11 14:42; edited 1 time in total
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I'm hoping for some snow at home before we drive out to Serre Chevalier in December.
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You know it makes sense.
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My Vredestein snowtrac 3 tyres have "M & S" on them. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, I think you'll find there's a mountain snowflake on there too.
Hells Bells, It's not really snow that's the problem, but low temps and ice.
Plus, the X-trail is not unusually heavy and has a competent AWD system.
In difficult conditions, you really would want the proper boots on the car.
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Poster: A snowHead
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under a new name, but I am just a mere woman, so don't seem to be allowed an opinion on this (BTW I am not picking on my hubby here). I think I will be organising our own tyres from now on. Trouble is having paid for these two, buying a complete set of winter ones is probably out of the question. The ones we've had on the car in the past have been fine in cold, snow , ice etc, (a selection of M&S tyres from Continental, Pirelli , Kumo and others), and had another pair of them been fitted, I would have been satisfied. I'm just not confident that this new pair will be so good in bad weather.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I think you'll find there's a mountain snowflake on there too.
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Oh yes, certainly there is. I was just wanting to counter the impression given (not just in this thread) that tyres which say "M & S" won't be any use in snow. Many tyres have both symbols.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, Sure, but the point really is not in snow but when there's a pile up in front of you on the autoroute blanche, it's only 2C and your summer tyres take twice as long to stop as you expect.
It's not the snow that's the problem.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What we should be telling people is that for winter mountain driving they need tyres with the snowflake symbol. whether they have M & S (as any will, in addition?) is neither here nor there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| What we should be telling people is that for winter mountain driving they need tyres with the snowflake symbol. whether they have M & S (as any will, in addition?) is neither here nor there. |
I thought that was what I was saying? 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I drove to Austria and back in January 2010, all the way there and almost all the way back in falling snow with plenty of it out there. Landrover Discovery with M&S tyres and never a hint of a problem. The Austrian authorities permit the use of M&S tyres so they must be good enough for them?
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I have used all-season tyres that had "M&S" symbol on 2 Shogun because at the time I could not get winter tyres for its alloy sizes. Nowadays winter tyres are a lot easier to obtain in UK, especially this year when suddenly everyone is interested.
M&S stands for "mud and snow" block pattern of the tread and should not be interpreted as the "winter" tyre. It will help as a 4x4 performs better on snow than a 2WD vehicle if given the identical tyres. When driven with due care and with deep tread it will do the job as I averaged 4 seasons per Shogun and done about 8 Alpine trips not having the need to resort to the snow chains. Thus I have driven on M&S all-season tyres in the Alps for 8 seasons without any trouble but a Shogun is a full fledged 4x4 and I kept a new set of all-season tyres almost only for skiing.
A 100% winter tyre is softer than the normal tyre by design and wears out at an unacceptable rate if used in the summer. Between the winter tyre and summer tyre some manufacturers provide all-season tyres which has a nominal micro grooves assisted by the M&S tread pattern. An all-season tyre with M&S tread pattern could probably adequate for UK roads but a proper winter tyre is preferred if the 2WD vehicle must cope with the snow condition in the Alps.
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| robboj wrote: |
| I drove to Austria and back in January 2010, all the way there and almost all the way back in falling snow with plenty of it out there. Landrover Discovery with M&S tyres and never a hint of a problem. The Austrian authorities permit the use of M&S tyres so they must be good enough for them? |
which was my point really, M&S (without snowflake or mountain symbol) are allowed. Should I decide to drive in another Alpine country apart from France with this car (which is possible), the new tyres would not be acceptable, but all of the others I have had in the past would be. Guy who got them for us doesn't actually 'get it' . Of course the tyres he obtained are suitable for our car, but they aren't suitable for driving in winter conditions in the mountains.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And soemthing else. Should we have M&S on the front and these other tyres on the rear?
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It's ice / compacted snow that causes the problem and ground temps are significanhtly lower for a much longer time over here in the alps. It's not unusual for the ground just above sea level to be frozen for months.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| And soemthing else. Should we have M&S on the front and these other tyres on the rear? |
| Quote: |
• If winter/snow tires are applied to the front axle of any vehicle,
winter/snow tires must also be installed on the rear axle. DO
NOT apply winter/snow tires only to the front axle as
illustrated in Figure 1 (right). This applies to all passenger
and light truck vehicles including front-wheel-drive, 4x4, and
all-wheel-drive vehicles.
• If winter/snow tires are installed on the rear axle of any
vehicle, it is recommended (but not required) that they
also be installed on the front axle. |
https://www.rma.org/getfile.cfm?ID=1037&type=publication
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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altis, but as stated above, these tyres (Pirelli Scorpions) aren't winter tyres, they are M&S tyres (no snowflake, no mountain symbol).
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I drove 8 season in the Alps on Pirelli Scorpion STR tyres which are for all-season with M&S pattern. Pirelli has summer tyre named Scorpion zero and all terrain tyre called Scorpion ATR suitable to do a bit of off road. The true winter tyre is the Scorpion ice & snow which was difficult to get say about 5 to 10 years ago. Thus Pirelli Scorpion can mean several different tyres.
My two sets of true winter tyres, one set being Dunlop 4D and the other Nokia W+, have both M&S and snowflake symbols.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sat 19-11-11 23:33; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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saikee, I think they are the STR ones on the front, but they aren't the issue, it's the Bridgestones that are my concern, as they aren't M&S.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Think mixing tyres of different capabilities could render the vehicle to behave in a unpredictable manner.
Suppose the front axle brakes first and better then the rear may be still able to exert momentum with the front becoming a hinged point. The worst is of course put different tyre on each side which gives a high probability losing control should one side stop quicker than the other side. The risk may not be obvious when the tyres are newish but some tyres wear out faster and lose the braking efficiency then an accident may occur.
Even if a car has identical tyre on each corner the front pair will always wear at different rate than the rear pair. This happens on both 2WD and 4WD cars. Thus using tyres of different capabilities should be avoided if possible.
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Poster: A snowHead
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saikee, Cool. I got the V rated ones too... all season but with the treasured snowflake  I can get them to break a little on hard cornering in the summer but it's pretty predictable, they don't just fold and skitter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ok, should we decide to blow the budget, and get a set of winter tyres, any online recommendations? I've had a quick look, and all are lookind extortionate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hells Bells, kwik fit are advertising 20% off winter tyres at the mo down here . Don't know anymore than that I'm afraid. When I needed tyres for my German 4x4 I asked Spyderman and bought what he said!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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tyremen.co.uk seem to be reasonable - as somebody else pointed out (thanks!) they have the Vredesteins which in my size were around £84 each.
Next, just to ensure we can keep this going till the snow arrives, let's have another discussion about which wheels the best tyres should go on. I will now have 4 Vredestein Snowtrac tyres, two brand new, two having done half a year (but looking good).
Last year some apparently knowledgeable people said the best tyres should go on the driving wheels (front, in our case), others said they should go on the back (presumably to cut down the chance of losing the rear end on a bend).
Frankly, I don't think it will make a big difference, as the 2 sets of tyres are very similar.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, My understanding is to put the best up front as (assuming front wheel drive) they'll wear quicker, helping to balance the load, as it were.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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under a new name, That is correct, however for most predictable handling (on front wheel drive especially) the best should go on the back.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| ok, should we decide to blow the budget, and get a set of winter tyres, any online recommendations? I've had a quick look, and all are lookind extortionate. |
I got mine from mytyres.co.uk 6 weeks ago and had them fitted this week. The fitter says they are going like hot cakes atm so be quick and get some or your be in for a long wait.
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As our fridge-freezer now seems to be dying, I may have other priorities
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Now may be a bad time to source winter tyres which command very little discount when everybody is seeking them. One counts oneself lucky for £100 per tyre but for low profile high speed version or 4x4 (which has bigger and wider tyre) it is between £100 and £150 range. I found this site quite up to date and prices slightly higher than those I got from a local garage. If one gets a set of alloys too a better discount is possible but we are then talking a grand. One has to allow for tyre change cost which could be in the region of £40 to £50 per set. Thus if tyres get change over twice in a year there could be another £100. Getting alloys for the winter tyre also requires space to store them but many tyre dealers offer to store the tyres too.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| As our fridge-freezer now seems to be dying, I may have other priorities |
I'll probably get a stoning for being a heretic, but I only see having winter tyres as saving the bother of putting chains on 
For the average holidaymaker not living in a snowy place all winter etc etc (Bit like telepeage really)
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FAQ
