 Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks chocksaway. I kinda thought that would be the case with France. C'est la vie!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i think there is no need for a third set for me either then, summer on alloys, M&S on steels....
Then i read a bit: http://www.ukecc.net/read_write/file/winter_tyres_ECCs_january2011.pdf
where is says that some areas there will be a local sign that makes them a requirement...but not what counts? is it like Germany and Austria where M&S count or is it only snowflaked tyres, or are the signs I referred to earlier that state you need to fit snowchains if you haven't got 'winter' tyres and later even if you have winter tyres you still must fit them. but I won't be turned round for having M+S & snow chains..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Leakyideas, that article you link to is inaccurate in respect of France, where it states that "winter tyres are generally not mandatory but if there is a specific road sign (decided by a special decree), they are mandatory".
That is NOT the case. On roads with that road sign (and some get left up all year round) you might need "special equipment" in bad weather and you might well be stopped by the police and required to fit chains (this tends to happen mostly on busy transfer days, when one car without the right equipment can cause an almighty jam). In my experience, when the police are stopping vehicles and insisting chains be used, they don't give a fig whether you have snow tyres or not - you have to put the chains on and its not advisable to argue. 4WD vehicles might well be allowed to continue without, not having driven one I wouldn't know. But I have seen quite a lot of Land Rovers and other similar gnarly vehicles with chains on, when roads are bad and I have also seen big and ungainly 4WD vehicles getting into trouble, especially on downhill bends.
Snow tyres are not mandatory in France, but before I get jumped on, I should add that that doesn't mean they're not a very good idea.
Generally speaking, cars hired in France won't have snow tyres unless you specifically request and pay extra for them. They might, or might not, have chains and even if you specifically ask for them when you book, you won't necessarily get them (at least, that's true of hire in Geneva airport, French side - other rental stations might be better though a friend who hired a car in Grenoble didn't get snow tyres. He had chains though, and knew how to use them).
And finally, even if you do get chains with your French hired car, they could possibly be the wrong size. If it's snowy weather (as you hope it will be, if you're going skiing) it's worth checking, whilst still parked up under cover, that you can get them on. Don't wait until you are knee deep in frozen slush to find out that they're the wrong size. There was a horror story about that on snowheads last season sometime IIRC.
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I have always understood the above sign to mean you need EITHER chains OR snowtyres?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowrider, It does, but the little blue "pneus neige admis" is not always there...
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| pam w wrote: |
| In my experience, when the police are stopping vehicles and insisting chains be used, they don't give a fig whether you have snow tyres or not - you have to put the chains on and its not advisable to argue. 4WD vehicles might well be allowed to continue without, not having driven one I wouldn't know. |
On a couple of the really bad transfer days last December the police in Bourg St Maurice were stopping all cars going to Les Arcs and further up the Tarentaise to St Foy, Tignes, etc. 4x4s with winter tyres were let through, much to my relief, with the police checking the tyres pretty carefully (I guess looking for a snowflake sign) before I was allowed to pass. Everyone else had to put chains on and there didn't seem to be any exceptions, including 4x4s which I assume didn't have winter tyres (I saw a couple of LR Discoverys stopped in the chainage area to fit chains).
It was chaos on the roads that day, and I was ever so thankful that I'd decided to fit winter tyres to the AWD car I got just before I drove out to the Alps that month.
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Thanks Pam w thats what my earlier searching had found,
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"From what i can tell in France that in some places you don't have to fit snow chains if the driving axle has winter tyres or spiked tyres on.
and in other roads you still need to fit snow chains no matter what you have on, but you don't 'NEED' snow flake marked tyres in france. "
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thus why i was confused 
I have M+S tyres with good snow traction, snow snipes and a wide block patten, which i've used to drive in 2ft of snow up a steep hill across a field...i thought it was the road. UK Packed snow and ice have not been a problem for them (but no snowflake), admittedly not as the temps you get up mountains.
I agree it's a good idea to use 'proper winter tyres' and when i replace mine i'm sure i will.
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A question about speed rating. I am replacing two of my snow tyres for this winter. Tyremen have what I want (Vredestein Snowtrac 3) at either £60 (T rating) or £65 (H rating).
The lower rates tyre goes up to 118 mph which is more than I am ever going to do. Is there any advantage in paying a bit more for the higher rated tyre?
Also, how much are people paying for a garage to store tyres? I have got room in my garage, but they're a pain, and probably not optimally stored - they are sitting vertically on a narrow shelf, but I do turn them through 90 degrees every now and then, when I think of it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Leakyideas, another point is that you need snow tyres fitted to both axles, not just the driving axle. I found this out the hard way, having only fitted snow tyres to the front wheels, on the explicit advice of a tyre depot in Sallanches, France - I knew nothing, and assumed they were right, especially as I'd have bought 4 if the guy had advised me to do so!
I lost the back end of the car completely, driving extremely cautiously round a pretty mild bend - obviously the front stuck to the road much more effectively and I did a 180 skid and end up pointing down the road I was coming up. I now have four snow tyres!
Fortunately the roads were empty when this happened, and I was lucky - I could have found out a harder way! I did a skid pan session, a few years ago, which helped me to control the skid, but that wouldn't have been much use if my graceful slide had taken me into the path of a ski bus coming down the hill!
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| Quote: |
It was chaos on the roads that day, and I was ever so thankful that I'd decided to fit winter tyres to the AWD car I got just before I drove out to the Alps that month.
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If it's the same day I'm thinking of, it was utter insanity. Never seen road conditions quite as bad. That said, I managed to get my 2WD Renault Trafic minibus from Bourg up to La Thuile (on snow tyres). Had to admit defeat and put the chains on to make the turn up to Sainte Foy (which had about 12" of packed but unconsolidated snow on the road).
Trashed brand-new chains in that one ascent. First time I'd bitten the bullet and bought some expensive ones too!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Trashed brand-new chains in that one ascent.
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 why do you think that was? I've done a good few miles with mine; had them 7 years.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You must have more luck than me then Pam, I see chains as almost disposible. I've killed 3 sets in a weekend in the past.
In this particular case, the centre of Sainte Foy resort had 6"+ of soft-packed snow on the road, really horrendous. I had to stop for someone crossing the road, then as I pulled away again, one of the "catches" on the inside-of-the-wheel wire (the first thing you connect up) popped off the wire. Not repairable apparently and I was pretty cheesed off as they were supposedly "bomb-proof", very expensive Pewag chains. Not repairable either.
I expect to break the chain links fairly regularly, but that's easy enough to fix. I was pretty miffed in this case and would have tried to get them replaced, but it all became a bit academic a few days later when the whole vehicle got written off when I snow-plough reversed into us!
I think the main reason we trash chains so regularly is that, running a business, we often have no choice but to go out on the road in really bad conditions. If you're travelling for personal purposes, it's much easier to say "Forget it, I'll do the shopping tomorrow!", but it's a bit harder when you've got people waiting at the station to be picked-up!
Currently trying to decide whether to get posh ones again for the new van, or just go with the cheapest ones and treat them as disposible.
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stevomcd, I'm surprised you could trash quality tyres quite so easily, especially in deep snow? I have seen them come flying off from idiot's cars who insist on driving on normal road surface however!
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You know it makes sense.
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under a new name, I was pretty ticked-off in this particular case and would have tried to get them replaced as they just shouldn't have failed in the way they did - but as I said, I ended up with bigger concerns a couple of days later!
Previously, it's been pretty cheap chains and it's been more of a "death by a thousand cuts" as a few links get broken/repaired and you get to a point where it's not worth trying to hold them together any more.
I'm driving big, heavy vehicles (9-seat LWB mini-bus and a Landy) so the forces involved are a lot bigger than a normal car.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, sorry for the delay in response - the threat of cold weather and it';s gone yee-har busy!
No real advantage of going for the higher speed rating, it is common to go for a lower rating for winter and as long as you don't drive faster than 118mph then no issues.
In terms of storage: Our retail site doesn't charge for storage, I have heard of some groups offering storage at £7 per wheel which sounds pretty sensible too. Just ring ahead as many garages don't have the room to offer this facility.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, yes you are quite right there too - fitting winter tyres in pairs is crucial! I know people do fit them to just the driving wheels but we wouldn't recommend it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I just keep my other tyres/rims in the shed. Stacked one on top of the other they don't take up much space and I just had to get rid of the some cr*p that was already in there!
If you fit tyres which are rated less than the max speed of your vehicle you are (in Germany) supposed to have a dashboard sticker saying "Do not exceed 118mph" (or whatever speed). But a German colleague says it is common practice to dispense with the sticker and just use the speed warning buzzer (assuming the car has one) - mine is permanently set to 85mph so no problem there!
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What would anyone recommend if driving around on a slight bit of snow but parts of the road are mainly uncovered. Do you reckon snow socks would do the job?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jdalpha, I've been using winter tyres since 2006 as for me it's a 'no brainer' after the initial cash flow hit. Prior to that I used those Snow socks, and I found them to be quite effective in varying conditions. In fact, they exceeded my expectations. However, in exactly those conditions that you mention, mine started to shred in places after a few miles. On solid snow, they will survive very well. From recollection, they are kevlar lined, but they are not indestructible. Mind you, I drive a very heavy estate car if that has any bearing.
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Thanks for the reminder 1st car goes in tomorrow
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tyremen, thanks. 2 of the lower rated tyres ordered today.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Also considering winter tyres this year, just for driving around in Northern England.... the local councils around here don't considering gritting the roads a priority!
Which companies are best/worst for getting them from? Anyone used Costco (if they even sell them)? I need 18 inch so imagine it may get costly.
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Now happy to report that my winter tyres and rims have now arrived and been fitted to my little Seat Ibiza - which is not probably going to go out of the UK this winter.
After much searching on various websites and reading up on here I bought
Vredestein Snowtrac 3 185/60R14 82 T Quantity: 4 x 52 GBP from Oponeo.co.uk
together with rims: Südrad steel rim 143502 5,00Jx14 Quantity: 4 x 31 GBP
Oponeo turned out to be a very efficient organisation, contacted me at various stages to check that I had ordered exactly the right thing - they checked the rim size themselves with Seat, and then I had e mails saying what progress the delivery was making from Germany/rims and Poland/tyres and it was co-ordinated to arrive on the same day here. They have now been at our local garage today and all are now fitted - that bit was £72 I think, £8 per wheel to fit the tyre and then £7 each for valve and balancing.
My OH has also ordered tyres from the same place for his Suzuki which has not itself arrived yet, but the rims are coming from a Suzuki garage - cheaper.
And son has ordered too for his Audi.
I really did it to extend the wear on the existing tyres - I can't see me changing my car for a long time - we will be using the Seat when back in the UK at Christmas, and although we are in the south when we get bad roads we do get them.
Now I can concentrate on helmets and new ski trousers for a woman with very short legs!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| tyremen wrote: |
| pam w, yes you are quite right there too - fitting winter tyres in pairs is crucial! I know people do fit them to just the driving wheels but we wouldn't recommend it. |
For the last 2 winters I have a pair of Michelin Alpin on the front of my Focus on steel rims, only once did have a really hairy moment when the back end swung out on me but tbh it was more my fault having a bit of fun.
I have just had some winter Hankooks fitted to the front and put the michelins on the back, I reckon there is probably just about a winter left in them. So I am curious to see how it will perform with winter tyres on all 4 corners now.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Kel, I did lots of very snowy driving with just the front wheels snow-tyred, and my hairy moment (like yours) was survivable. But it might not have been; it only takes one.
I've had completely divergent advice from tyre "experts" as to whether the best pair of snow tyres should be fitted on the driving wheels (front wheels in my case) or the back. What do you reckon, tyremen? My local garage, who change the tyres for me, were adamant that the best pair should be on the driving wheels but I'm sure one of the winter tyre experts recommended they go on the back wheels, and my instinctive feel is that that's correct. Couldn't tell you why (I guess that's what "instinctive" means  ).
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pam w, I thought the law in france now requires 4 snow tyres - ie 2 no longer legal
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You know it makes sense.
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pam w,
Mmmm never gave that much thought but stopping the back end swinging out on you has to be more important than grip to get moving, so I think you well be right there.
I usually get my tyres from Costco and they always fit the new tyres to the rear as that is the directive from Michelin, which is the vast majority of their sales.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I thought the law in france now requires 4 snow tyres - ie 2 no longer legal
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chocksaway, that's interesting. I hadn't heard that. I do have 4, anyway, but it's always good to know these things!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've acquired a different work vehicle, and have two winter tyres sitting in the back (it's a van), which were swapped for the summer ones in April. Wondering if I can get away with the garage ordering me another pair of winter ones now. I won't feel happy driving with an incomplete set.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i am planning on driving to the Alps this season for one week. Do I need to have winter tyres? I have snow socks and my sister has chains we think will fit. We need to check tyre sizes. Will these do?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SueRushworth, which bit of the Alps? For Austria it seems you need snow tyres, for France you don't ie they are not compulsory. For one week I'd take the snow socks AND make sure the chains fit, and that you know how to fit them.
I see very few snow socks out in our part of the French alps, but on one occasion when I'd had to put chains on top of my snow tyres, in very difficult conditions, I followed a car with snow socks who was doing just as well as I was. Just be sure that you stop to fit them (or the chains) the moment you feel the slightest loss of traction. It could be that French police might insist on the chains, in certain circumstances - I don't know.
whilst people are thinking about this - any response to my question as to which axle gets the newest of my four snow tyres. "Experts" have told me different things - I'm taking a poll.
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Thanks to Phil at tyremen for sorting out a good deal on Hankook all season tyres. I'll see if they are better in the Alps than the Kumho all seasons I had before.
p.s. another vote for the snow socks. I keep chains in the car as well just in case the French police get sniffy but i've never had to use them. The snow socks got me up to Val Thorens last December during that huge dump when there was compacted snow and ICE pretty much from Moutiers. Biggest problem was the Volvo I had used nearly half a tank of fuel getting up the hill
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| whilst people are thinking about this - any response to my question as to which axle gets the newest of my four snow tyres. "Experts" have told me different things - I'm taking a poll. |
I have been told (on more than one occasion and by different tyre fitters) that the 'official' recommendation is that new tryes should be fitted to the back - regardless of whether they are the driven wheels. My understanding is that it's better to avoid sudden oversteer (the back-end stepping out) than to avoid understeer - primarily because, with almost everyone driving front-wheel drive cars these days, few drivers have any experience of controlling a loose back-end (you know what I mean). I guess that logic would equally apply to any car wearing just one set of winter tyres (in slippery conditions).
AA advice here http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html
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It's great to hear snow socks can get you to Val Thorens. I am going to La Rosiere. We will be checking the chains fit they are in a different part of the the country at the moment. Thank you so much for your help:-)
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Tyre man,
I need some 195/60/15 tyres for a 99 volvo but i was wondering how much difference the fuel economy rating of the tyre has on actual fuel use? is it worth paying a little more for for a better rated tyre? Any suggestions as for what I should go for, price is an issue, but I will be in the alps for 3 months so something half decent would be good! I'd rather not pay more that £300 for 4 tyres inc fitting if possible
thanks
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Winter tyres can tend to have slightly poorer fuel economy - this is the trade off for winter grip in snow/ice/slush. However the difference is far from dramatic. I don't think it necessarily mean that the more you pay the better the efficiency is.
I'd take a look at the Hankook W310 which are designed a lot like a standard summer tyre and the trade off on fuel efficiency will be small. I did promise not to flog our products on here but I do have this size extraordinarily cheap at the moment and could certainly do it within your budget.
Phill.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Red Leon, I have always, on good advice, subscribed to the "best tyres on the back theory", but having checked the handbook for my (recently purchased) Allroad Quattro, Audi are clear that the best should go on the front! Also chains go on the front rather than the more normal rear for 4wd systems. Maybe it's a quattro specific thing?
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Hi Tyreman. Firstly welcome and thanks for the Vredsteins which arrived on their alloys a couple of weeks ago - they look great and they're going on the car tomorrow so I look forward to testing them out here, and shortly in the Alps (have you seen the snow today yeeee haaaaaaaa!)
Swillers note regarding directional tyres got me thinking (a rare event...  ); I have a 'Get You Home' steel spare wheel with a standard tyre on. If I was to get a puncture and need to change a wheel in the snow does anyone have any thoughts on:
a. Where this leaves me legally with the Gendarmes?
b. Whether it is worth swapping wheels about to ensure that least grippy tyre is front or rear? My gut feeling is to get all the Winter tyres on the front (I have FWD) to give traction, steering and the option to put chains on (as they are sized for these wheels). This make make the rear axle a bit prone to slipping, but it is only to get me to safe refuge.
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