 Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| But paying a tip means that the service provider has a direct relationship with his client, and has immediate feedback if he hasn't been up to scratch. I rather like that. |
Depends whether you regard the individual or the business as the service provider. But I agree the further removed the person doing the actual work is, the harder it is to get them to care about the end result
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| comprex wrote: |
| eng_ch wrote: |
| But this is why I asked earlier about what if a restaurant in the US set up with the offer of a living wage to its staff - I suspect they'd be overrun with applicants. |
For all 3 days they stayed in business, paying wait staff and food cost and overhead without customers in the door. There are some that do pay well over minimum, but the customer is also dishing out well over $40 a plate. |
Is the US so obsessed with price rather than value then?
| Quote: |
| I'm not buying the concept of 'selfless' service either, as it relies on state-supplied safety nets to provide adequate health care. So, in effect, the population is taxed to provide for non-tipping tourists??? That will go over well I'm sure. |
Bear of little brain here - don't understand this one at all, sorry.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, Since (if we go back to the origin or the thread, ski instructors), you don't believe there are either any good instructors in Europe or any bad ones in the States, it's obvious that you feel quite happy to pay lots more for your lessons in America and a tip on top, whereas the cheapest ski school in Europe would be deemed bad value to you I think. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
Is the US so obsessed with price rather than value then? |
No. It means that the US is over-supplied with restaurants and those who can afford to pay over-minimum before tips are the ones who have a proven clientele and proven waitstaff and who aren't in danger of shutting next week as all the others are, in the face of fierce competition. No customers -> no tips means they can advertise or work on menus or whatever they need to actually get going.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not buying the concept of 'selfless' service either, as it relies on state-supplied safety nets to provide adequate health care. So, in effect, the population is taxed to provide for non-tipping tourists??? That will go over well I'm sure. |
Bear of little brain here - don't understand this one at all, sorry. |
Who pays for wait staff health care and dental and child care? Why should taxes fund this, when its the tourists getting the benefit?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What ever money you pay, you better be able to see the results in your skiing sooner or later
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| comprex wrote: |
| Who pays for wait staff health care and dental and child care? |
Well, if you pay a living wage, they pay their own as here in CH. It's KISS, innit?
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| Why should taxes fund this, when its the tourists getting the benefit? |
Confused of Zurich again - the tourists get the benefit of the health care?
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The tourists get the benefit of service, and, yes, they get the benefit of the health care, i.e. they don't get TB or cholera or worse from the wait staff.
It may seem KISS, but, again, it relies on a strongly state-protected labour market, which this is quite simply not.
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eng_ch, the arguments have been well thrashed out. If you go to the States, cough up a tip or you'll cost the unfortunate waiter. Otherwise stay in Europe to ski - especially since you are in one of the finest countries in the world to go skiing. Didn't notice the waiters in Wengen turning down tips, though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, Since (if we go back to the origin or the thread, ski instructors), you don't believe there are either any good instructors in Europe or any bad ones in the States, |
Actually, I've never said that.
I've had good and bad lessons in various countries (and it's not always the instructor's fault). I just find more encouragement and empathy from US instructors, and less demeaning comments and attitude.
| easiski wrote: |
| it's obvious that you feel quite happy to pay lots more for your lessons in America and a tip on top, whereas the cheapest ski school in Europe would be deemed bad value to you I think. |
Well, I don't think I pay "lots more" for my lessons in the US, but I would prefer to have a good value, never mind the cost.
The last time I had a lesson in Europe, it cost me ₤50 for half a day in a group. The last lessons I had in the US cost me approx ₤250.
...but that was for 4 days. That's under ₤32 for half a day.
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| achilles wrote: |
| eng_ch, the arguments have been well thrashed out. If you go to the States, cough up a tip or you'll cost the unfortunate waiter. Otherwise stay in Europe to ski - especially since you are in one of the finest countries in the world to go skiing. Didn't notice the waiters in Wengen turning down tips, though. |
When in Rome? Absolutely. And I do tip here by rounding up the bill - but I don't mind one jot because I know it's a sign of appreciation and they don't actually need it. Maybe I'm just contrary 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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eng_ch, so, if they don't need it, then surely there is less appreciation?
I mean, if you have one person with 100 pounds and you give them a pound, are they more appreciative than the one who had 10 pounds, and you gave her a pound?
Maybe I'm just too open minded to other ideas and cultures... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ssh wrote: |
| Latchigo wrote: |
The general Australian model where a decent wage is usually paid and tipping is not required as a matter of course seems the best system. I do not know if this applies to Australian ski instructors but it seemed to be the way of things elsewhere.
The US system seems to fall down insofar as high cost to the consumer is combined with a low wage. That suggests the owner is taking too much profit in my view.
I take a dim view of the excessively capitalist outlook in America where you screw employees as much as you can when you can. If that fails you export their jobs or bring in cheap immigrant labour to do their work. |
Of course, in that case you'll pay the same for great service and for lousy service. I personally appreciate the incentive that I can offer via a tip for good service. I also appreciated the favor that I get when I return the next time if I tipped well last time. |
It begs the question why tip some jobs and not others ?
I think most people try to do a good job - tip or no tip. Those that offer poor service get found out in the long run. I would not like to depend on grace and favour handouts to make up a living wage. I would not expect others to do so either.
If everybody in the US is looking for a bung, as Rusty Guy suggests , then I for one would never go out of an evening. It would just be too expensive.
Americans are nice people but they have some really nasty political institutions and economic practices.
I worry when UK politicians force us down an American-style route. For example, proudly announcing that lack of job protection means we are so much better off than the rest of Europe because it encourages companies to set up in the UK. The other side of the coin is that it also encourages companies to pull out of the UK when the going gets a little bit tough.
When I had a lesson in Alta the instructor said we could get our money back if we were not completely satisfied with the lesson. With a straight face, I said that was a splendid idea and that was exactly what I intended to do. The poor woman looked horrified. Either it was a different sense of humour or refunds were not uncommon.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Latchigo wrote: |
| ..............I would not like to depend on grace and favour handouts to make up a living wage.............. |
It'd keep you on your toes, though. Rather like being self-employed.
Anyway, you don't have to, you live in Britain. But when you travel to the States, remember the waiters (and many other service providers) are living in a different world. Tip them unless you want them to suffer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Latchigo wrote: |
The US system seems to fall down insofar as high cost to the consumer is combined with a low wage. That suggests the owner is taking too much profit in my view.
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Fair enough, but rapid (re)development has to come out of somewhere, and giving that up is not going to happen soon.
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If everybody in the US is looking for a bung, as Rusty Guy suggests , then I for one would never go out of an evening. It would just be too expensive.
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It IS expensive, hence my assertion above that wait staff are for tourists. Honestly, half the restaurants within 5km of my office would go out of business for bad food and bad service if it wasn't for the bused-in tourists who are in captive-catered arrangements or looking for the closest thing to the monuments.
Eventually found out? Hah. You don't credit the power of advertising to rope in the unsuspecting enough.
| Quote: |
When I had a lesson in Alta the instructor said we could get our money back if we were not completely satisfied with the lesson. With a straight face, I said that was a splendid idea and that was exactly what I intended to do. The poor woman looked horrified. Either it was a different sense of humour or refunds were not uncommon. |
I laughed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| Latchigo wrote: |
| ..............I would not like to depend on grace and favour handouts to make up a living wage.............. |
It'd keep you on your toes, though. Rather like being self-employed.
Anyway, you don't have to, you live in Britain. But when you travel to the States, remember the waiters (and many other service providers) are living in a different world. Tip them unless you want them to suffer. |
Indeed I do live in Britain. Praise the Lord !
Breathes there a man
Whose soul so dead
That never to himself hath said
This my own,my native land.
I think most people are reasonably diligent. I saw no particular signs of sloth in Australia compared to the US.
I just happen to believe in full employment, a living wage for all, free education, free health care - the whole Welfare State package. That might make me a 'commie' in the eyes of the more doctrinaire Americans but I believe that when we rolled out those ideas those were our finest days as a nation. Even Harold MacMillan said 'We never had it so good'. It pains me to see people trying to knock all that down.
Of course if I go abroad I do bear in mind others are less fortunate than us, but it does not mean I have to approve of the way they go about things.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Latchigo wrote: |
| I just happen to believe in full employment, a living wage for all, free education, free health care |
It proved unsustainable though, didn't it? People ended up "fully employed" making things like Morris Marinas that nobody wanted.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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laundryman, I think that is a 'defeatist' view of situation.
A few decades on we have a huge alienated underclass who are more of a problem than a few thousand shoddy Morris Marinas ever were. North Sea oil was wasted on smashing the unions and decimating industry in the UK.
Walking away from full employment pledges was a huge mistake in my view. It is the root cause of many other woes that currently afflict us. You just cannot afford to have a significant chunk of the population disengaged from society.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Explain why you need a full employment pledge if free (re)education is available?
No offence meant, I find this " a significant chunk of the population disengaged from society." a bit of an oxymoron?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Since when did US waiters got tax on tips they never get? Or are we talking about UK waiters?
I waited tables when I was in college (a long time ago). No, we didn't even declare the bulk of our tips. Just some symbolic amount to make it non-zero.
As for waiters not getting paid a living wage. That's the norm stateside, with exceptions, of course. One example, most Asian culture don't tip much. So Chinese, Japanese, Korean resturants that caters mostly to asian clients (the more authentic ones) pay more base salary than those cater to Americans, to make up for the low tips. If they don't do that, the good waiters will simply go work for other resturants where the clients tip more.
Next time in N. America, pay close attention to your bill. Many restaurant these days are starting to add a service charge to your bill. But many waiters seem to keep "forgetting" to tell you about it. There's no need to tip in such case. Appearently, the tipping "model" is not working all that well even in the land of the capitalist.
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Latchigo, society needs some signals so that it may adjust to people's changing wants. For "Marina", read "Trabant", if the process of state-guaranteed "full employment" is taken to its conclusion. East Germany was a study in mass alienation if ever there was one.
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comprex, Employment statistics used to be a key measure by which governments were judged. Then governments started to get fond of the phrase 'there is nothing that can be done' to cover various situations where they did not care to do anything.
If governments were judged on full employment they would try to sort out the long term unemployed. Immigration could be restricted and resources devoted to encouraging all our own citizens back into the workforce.
People drawing benefits are 'disengaged' from the world of work. Most of the rest of 'society' works.
No offence, but if I was a dictator one of the first things I would do is expel all Americans from the UK. They were always lurking in the background with nasty economic policies. Sir Keith Joseph did not come up with all this stuff out of nowhere. Britain has been in hock to the US since the days of lease/lend. The country has been effectively undermined by America. It has been done a bit more subtly than has been the case in say South America - but it has been done nonetheless. All the rest of Europe can see that. We should be independent of the US, like France. Instead we are used as a Trojan Horse to try to b*gger up the EC.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abc,
I do recall the added service charge in a few cases in South Carolina, for example. The Americans I was with, seemed to always be aware of this even though we paid out of the kitty so it was easier to let them deal with it.
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Latchigo, au contraire, the US in hock to the UK, and has been for most of its existence.
Keith Joseph got his ideas principally from British, Austrian and US economists.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The simple fact being, even Americans don't always tip to the full "recommended" amount!
It has everything to do with the tip being too routinely expected and the waiter no longer try to please the customer.
And a lot of people reduce their tip when the FOOD is not as expected. In theory, that's the kitchen's fault. But to the diner, it's a whole package. So it doesn't pay for a good waiter to work in a resturant that has lousy food.
After the warning about service charge, I would suggest the following when eating in N. America: When you look at the menu, add 25% to the price. That's amount it'll end up when tax and "normal" tips are added in. If you feel the service or food are extra good for THAT price, you may choose to reward the waiter with extra tips.
If you feel the food and the service doesn't add up to the value, you can make it known you're not happy. Chances are the manager may decide to reduce the bill on account of your complain. If they do that, I would still calculate the tip base on the ORIGINAL bill. If, however, they're unresponsive, then you may decide to reduce or skip the tip entirely.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Latchigo, au contraire, the US in hock to the UK, and has been for most of its existence. |
How do you work that one out then ? US corporations and finance houses dominate the UK.
Politically US calls the shots. Look at Suez.
US also decided ( quite rightly in this case) that a British Empire was an anachronism and had to go.
| laundryman wrote: |
Keith Joseph got his ideas principally from British, Austrian and US economists. |
Milton Friedman and the Chicago school. Hayek also. Our old standby Keynes went out the window.
QED.
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| Latchigo wrote: |
| How do you work that one out then ? US corporations and finance houses dominate the UK. |
See here for some direct British investments in the US. All of that is I believe greatly outweighed by stakes in US firms and property owned by British investment houses - our pension funds. I believe that all of that stock is greater than the equivalent US investment in the UK.
Historically, British interests financed the westward expansion and industrialisation of the US in the 19th and early 20th century. It was only in the post war period that things turned around, including the debt of the British govt to the US govt. (We missed payments on that debt a few times - most notably when we had to beg to the IMF at the end of the failed Keynsian experiment.)
| Quote: |
| Politically US calls the shots. Look at Suez. |
No doubt about it, based on the wealth and hence power generated by their successful economic system.
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| laundryman wrote: |
Keith Joseph got his ideas principally from British, Austrian and US economists. |
Milton Friedman and the Chicago school. Hayek also. Our old standby Keynes went out the window. |
Friedman = American
Hayek = Austria
plus classical economists like Smith and Ricardo = British.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman, I think you will find that economically Britain peaked in the late 19th century, though it took a while for that to show.
US may have had a successful economic system, albeit one where wealth was very unevenly distributed.
It is not doing so well now though and it is failing to look after the economic interests of its own citizens allowing unlimited immigration, exporting jobs etc.
US was also historically a far more divided, less cohesive society than most European countries.
Abandoning Keynesian economics was throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It was not perfect but no system is.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Latchigo wrote: |
| laundryman, I think you will find that economically Britain peaked in the late 19th century, though it took a while for that to show. |
In terms of league table position, yes - though obviously everyone's a lot better off than their ancestors then.
I'm not using extent of overseas investments as an absolute yardstick of success. The UK and the US are the biggest providers AND recipients of overseas investment, reflecting their open economic systems and contributing to their relative success.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
allowing unlimited immigration
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Sometime people can be forgetful.
Without immigration, there were no US. Unless you mean LIMITED immigration (I hope you didn't mean that).
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deleted
deleted
Guest
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No country can survive with an open door policy.
Immigrants did indeed make the US and I have relatives there.
However, if they did not like the look of you at Ellis Island you did not get in.
What is the purpose of the current US policy re illegal migration from Mexico ? It seems to me it is just another device to depress the cost of labour. If so, I would not think that was fair on genuine American citizens.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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/Well, this thread should now be moved to another forum I think. It's moved right away from the original thread, so can a moderator put it wherever it should go please.
No-one will ever convince me that in a civilised world survival of the fittest is a good thing. Free health care, free education etc. I thing is what does make a society civilised, and Oh yes - good on the French - two fingers to Mr "I want to make a world war " bush!
Wear The Fox Hat, Actually you did, but I too busy (with peeps who actually think I can teach them something) to look up the reference. You certainly said that you'd never had a good lesson on europe. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| easiski wrote: |
| No-one will ever convince me that in a civilised world survival of the fittest is a good thing. |
Absolutely. Countries like Somalia and Congo must be a living hell.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just some stats just in, to break the monotony about GAP courses and pass rates.
WB this year saw just over 2 million skier visits.
Of those 2 million, 215,000 were in lessons of some sort. 1 in 10 were utilising the services of a Ski Instructor. Not a bad figure at all.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Just some stats just in, to break the monotony about GAP courses and pass rates.
WB this year saw just over 2 million skier visits.
Of those 2 million, 215,000 were in lessons of some sort. 1 in 10 were utilising the services of a Ski Instructor. Not a bad figure at all. |
Wow that's a high stat perhaps indicative of the successful way that the WB marketing powerhouse/ ski school programme has developed a range of non "ski school" courses. What does it look like when you strip out the kids? i.e. proportion of people that are making their own buying decision.
On the original subject I always find that tipping ski instructors is usually quite difficult. They are usually fairly stable on their skis.
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| fatbob wrote: |
On the original subject I always find that tipping ski instructors is usually quite difficult. They are usually fairly stable on their skis. |
You're not buying enough beer then.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just *what* is it with some Brits and their stubborness over this issue? I've just read a reply on another forum, and after all the social customs and etiquettes had been pointed out, with the consequences of not tipping (loss in pay) - he replied:
| Quote: |
| If I receive poor service I do NOT under ANY circumstances offer a tip unless it is completely beyond the control of the person who has directly been responsible for serving me. I don't give a moneky's f**k about what is expected in a particular country I have MY standards and I stick by them. |
From my pov this is just plain ignorance and/or rudeness, it's the equivalent of going to someone else's country and refusing to abide by the local manners, customs, etiquitte. Or is it just me? 
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I guess key here is the beginning of the quote, 'if I receive poor service'. Regardless of the rest of the para, would a N American still tip if they received poor service?
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FAQ
