 Poster: A snowHead
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eng_ch, I'm not sure how service can be insincere? It's a job afterall, someone is either keen to be helpful or they aren't.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Service can be fawning which is what I assume eng_ch is referring to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've not found it to be like that in Whistler or Vancouver. What has struck me on my trips there, is how, mostly, people have put more effort in to make sure that you have a good time as a customer.
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| Latchigo wrote: |
It is more irksome in the US to find the barmaid often expects a tip if you buy a few drinks.
And why do some jobs attract tips but not others ? The McDonald's employee is probably on less money than a waitress but they do not get a tip with every order they serve. |
As pointed out earlier in the thread, waitresses are taxed on the percentage of the bill to cover tips, even if they get no tips they are still taxed, hence why the job attracts tips. No idea about McD
Incidentally, all the waitresses in Whistler were absolute babes (no male waiters !), and in most cases I am sure that with the majority of the ski crowd being male, that they had good tips. I bet the bar owners basically work on the basis of attractive waitress, low wage, good tips rather than normal waitress, higher wage, lower tips.
I felt the service was a bit 'false smiles' at times, but good nevertheless
Capitalism at its extreme
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There were some absolute stunners working in the GLC. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Kramer, did you try the Longhorn for a massage?
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| Kramer wrote: |
| There were some absolute stunners working in the GLC. |
Red Ken only employs the best.
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rayscoops, There used to be a brew pub when I was in Whistler. It had very good ales. It also had barman as well as barmaids.
If tips are essential, a service charge should be clearly identified. That way foreigners know what the score is. I would not expect to tip in addition to a service charge though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Latchigo,
some places do add/include service on the bill in Tremblant but it could be clearer.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| eng_ch, I'm not sure how service can be insincere? It's a job afterall, someone is either keen to be helpful or they aren't. |
Sincere service is selfless, performed to benefit the customer regardless of potential extra reward. By insincere I mean that the only reason decent service is provided is in the hope/for the purpose of getting a tip. Fawning is also a good word. If I go the extra mile for my clients I don't expect extra and get p!ssed off if I don't get a tip - I do it because it's the professional thing to do
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hmm. Seems to me most of us work with a view to getting a reward, ie getting paid. If a tip is part of the payment system, the yes, service should be given in part with the expectation of a tip.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Latchigo, yes, I went to that pub and I seem to recall that generally there were blokes behind the bars who dished out the ale to the girls to deliver to the tables and they too seemed to be part of the tip system (tipping when I have walked to the bar to get my own drink? not sure about that !), but they were not shaking their toots around the restaurant floor in the same way as the babes.
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I have found service in Oz perfectly decent at least on a par with service on my fewer visits to North America and usually better food as well.
But I really don't see why the payment for service should be proportional to the price of the food and wine. Different culture I guess but it doesn't seem very logical to me.
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You know it makes sense.
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achilles, Ye s- but when the price seems to be much higher than in europe to start with and the instructors are paid a pittance, that's just grossly unfair. In other words, you are paying the instructor twice and making the resort company (who are probably already rolling in it) even richer!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, sorry, I had drifted off-topic and was thinking of the waiter thing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'd be interested to know if anyone tips their ski tech 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spyderjon, I do!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Kramer, you truly are an exception!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Latchigo wrote: |
The general Australian model where a decent wage is usually paid and tipping is not required as a matter of course seems the best system. I do not know if this applies to Australian ski instructors but it seemed to be the way of things elsewhere.
The US system seems to fall down insofar as high cost to the consumer is combined with a low wage. That suggests the owner is taking too much profit in my view.
I take a dim view of the excessively capitalist outlook in America where you screw employees as much as you can when you can. If that fails you export their jobs or bring in cheap immigrant labour to do their work. |
Of course, in that case you'll pay the same for great service and for lousy service. I personally appreciate the incentive that I can offer via a tip for good service. I also appreciated the favor that I get when I return the next time if I tipped well last time.
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ssh, that presumes that customers actively consider the lesson, and the value they got from it.
We know from the standardisation of a 15-20% waiter tip and the 'every ovation is a standing ovation nowadays' syndrome that there is a general creep in reward expectation. I believe a strong portion of that is the customer not knowing the value they've gotten.
PS & FWIW, my club pass had a lesson add-on which pretty much meant I got 14 days of private clinics for $90 total since they couldn't put me in groups. You bet I tipped - it was almost cheaper than signing on to wear the coat...
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I'm afraid I definitely have to go with Lachigo! Paying the least possible while making the most possible profit for the bosses, and then expecting the customer to make up the difference is really disgusting! Not necessarily to do with ski instructors - but as a system.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, I guess you are strongly against budget airlines as well.
Personally, if the customer gets better service, and they are aware of how the system works, then I'm in favour of it. If the customer believes they should not tip, or are better than others, then the best advice would be to stay away.
I'd sooner be encouraged to ski better by someone who will get rewarded for doing a good job, than shouted at by someone who will get their big fat salary no matter how bad a job they do - where is their incentive to do a good job?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 5-04-07 8:07; edited 1 time in total
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Wear The Fox Hat, what, you're supposed to tip the pilot and cabin crew????
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, what, you're supposed to tip the pilot and cabin crew???? |
eng_ch, no, the concept of the customer paying bare minimum, then having to pay for "extras" like having luggage, or getting a glass of water on the flight.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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eng_ch, Wear The Fox Hat,
years ago we were on a trip from the ski club i was a member of in glasgow...one of the guys grabed a ski hat and went the length of the plane asking for ' a tip for the driver' he took his collection [couple of hundred £] to the cockpit...the pilot & co pilot laughed and offered to double it and give to the carity of our choice....yorkhill childrens hospital got a nice little donation that day 
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Wear The Fox Hat, the difference is it's actually stated in the T&Cs - not always as transparently as one might like - but the information is there for the customer to make that decision. And, one assumes, the staff are all paid a living wage in the first place. Moreover, there's an alternative. Are there any restaurants etc in the US where tipping is not "mandatory"? Does the customer have that same choice?
CEM, nice one 
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You know it makes sense.
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eng_ch, it's cultural, not mandatory. Think of it like joining a lift queue. If you go to a busy lift queue in Europe, you need to work your way forward, and not rely on others to allow you forward. If you stand there and wait to be called forward, you'll not get anywhere. In the US if you find a busy lift queue, you do not push, you wait to be called. Different cultures, different attitudes.
Yes, there are restaurants where tipping does not occur - tends to be the fast food joints - McD, BK, IHOP,...
But you go in to a normal restaurant, where you'll pay considerably less than in Europe, and the culture would be that you tip. It's still going to work out a lot less than the overpriced stuff that the greedy restaurants over here charge, and by tipping the staff who do the work you know who is getting that money.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wear The Fox Hat, and so we come full circle. Queuing is cultural, imo, business models are not - they're business models.
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Poster: A snowHead
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eng_ch, so, why is it OK for a ski instructor to be get a reasonable salary in Euope for potentially bad customer service, and not much going to the bosses, and yet it's also deemed acceptable for a restaurant in Europe to pay staff poorly, but charge excessively?
Let's look at other resort staff - the people in hotels in both Europe and the US will probably be on close to minimum wage. (just ask on Natives). But the guys working in the US will get tips on top of their wage, particularly if they do good service. What incentive is there for them in Europe?
Oh, and polite queuing isn't cultural in the US, it's how the resorts operate (perhaps you could call that a business model) - there are roped off lines so people can get into groups, and at the front there will be a liftie who is employed to bring people forward in groups quickly and effectively to make maximum use of the chairs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| ........... And, one assumes, the staff are all paid a living wage in the first place. ........ |
Why do you assume that? Effectively, it appears they are paid a susbsistance baseline. It is up to the waiters to ply their trade well, so that they get tipped and prosper. Just because a country does things differently from ours doesn't mean it's wrong. Personally, I rather like the discipline that imposes on them to be good at their jobs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I was talking about the pilots and cabin crew on a budget airline there
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eng_ch, That'll teach me to but in
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, yes, the concept of being "good at your job" - it's kinda like non-sales staff being paid commission. I used to work for a consulting company. They paid me a basic wage (pretty much minimum wage), but then I got a bonus for every chargeable day I did on a client site. This bonus was considerable. If I did a good job on the client site, they were more likely to keep me on to do other work, or to agree to be a reference for me with other clients. Do a bad job, and I might have to go back and fix things free of charge, or they would request that I wasn't sent to them again.
My job was to do a good job. One of the key incentives was that I was financially rewarded when I did. If I just relied on a nice big salary, I'd have had a lot less incentive to do the work.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| eng_ch, so, why is it OK for a ski instructor to be get a reasonable salary in Euope for potentially bad customer service, and not much going to the bosses, |
Apart from the fact that a customer who gets poor service is likely to be left with a poor impression of the business (ski school) and hence the business loses the repeat business, I would consider decent service as part and parcel of doing a professional job, it's part of what the employee is paid to do, therefore if an employee fails to provide good service and/or is the subject of a complaint, then I would expect the employer to have a word in their shell-like and institute disciplinary proceedings if that doesn't work.
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and yet it's also deemed acceptable for a restaurant in Europe to pay staff poorly, but charge excessively?
Let's look at other resort staff - the people in hotels in both Europe and the US will probably be on close to minimum wage. (just ask on Natives). But the guys working in the US will get tips on top of their wage, particularly if they do good service. What incentive is there for them in Europe?
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Examples?
Surely it's also partly down to whether the customer feels they've got value for money. I know as a customer I would resent feeling obliged to make up the shortfall in pay - it's the employer's responsibility not mine. It doesn't matter how "cheap" the meal plus tip came out, it would remove any sense of having got good value and I think I would feel like a punter to be fleeced by the waiters, that they weren't concerned with whether I enjoyed my meal or the whole experience and only thought about how much tip they were going to get out of me. The incentive should be to do a good job - why should the customer effectively have to bribe someone to do a good job?
I will grant you that catering seems to be an "idiosyncratic" industry - I'd never work in it as it would drive me bananas. But clearly there's an element of market forces at work as there are enough people for whom minimum wage (in hotels etc presumably with accommodation and meals on top) is a price they're prepared to pay to work in their desired location, to give them time to go to auditions, to fit in with school hours etc. But this is why I asked earlier about what if a restaurant in the US set up with the offer of a living wage to its staff - I suspect they'd be overrun with applicants. What incentive is there for people to work in Europe? The chance to practise another language, the ski area, proximity to - or distance from - family etc etc. All sorts of factors play into the decision to take a job don't they?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
achilles, yes, the concept of being "good at your job" - it's kinda like non-sales staff being paid commission. I used to work for a consulting company. They paid me a basic wage (pretty much minimum wage), but then I got a bonus for every chargeable day I did on a client site. This bonus was considerable. If I did a good job on the client site, they were more likely to keep me on to do other work, or to agree to be a reference for me with other clients. Do a bad job, and I might have to go back and fix things free of charge, or they would request that I wasn't sent to them again.
My job was to do a good job. One of the key incentives was that I was financially rewarded when I did. If I just relied on a nice big salary, I'd have had a lot less incentive to do the work. |
Yes but the difference is that it was your employer choosing whether to pay your bonus, not the client, different situation entirely. IMO the customer is entitled to expect decent service for the advertised price - how the employer chooses to incentivise (eeek - sorry) their employees to achieve that is up to them
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But paying a tip means that the service provider has a direct relationship with his client, and has immediate feedback if he hasn't been up to scratch. I rather like that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Yes but the difference is that it was your employer choosing whether to pay your bonus, not the client, different situation entirely. IMO the customer is entitled to expect decent service for the advertised price - how the employer chooses to incentivise (eeek - sorry) their employees to achieve that is up to them |
Well, the employer only paid me a bonus if the client paid them, so it's not that different.
Your argument seems to be "it's ok to pay high prices in Europe, but to pay a lot less and get better service somewhere abroad is obviously a sign that the customer is losing out and that the fat cats are making more money"
Edit: Minimum wage in the UK is ₤5.35. In California (where I've just returned from), it's $7.50, so it's quite a bit less. But to put that in perspective, ₤5.35 will get you under 6 litres of petrol here, but $7.50 will get you over 9 in the US.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| But this is why I asked earlier about what if a restaurant in the US set up with the offer of a living wage to its staff - I suspect they'd be overrun with applicants. |
For all 3 days they stayed in business, paying wait staff and food cost and overhead without customers in the door. There are some that do pay well over minimum, but the customer is also dishing out well over $40 a plate.
I'm not buying the concept of 'selfless' service either, as it relies on state-supplied safety nets to provide adequate health care. So, in effect, the population is taxed to provide for non-tipping tourists??? That will go over well I'm sure.
PS they can come here and learn Spanish, Vietnamese, Russian, Chinese, Portuguese (in NYC the options are endless).
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