 Poster: A snowHead
|
I've just returned from a long weekend in Les Arcs - excellent weekend, however one of my party had a nasty fall, bust his collar bone in 3 places, and succeeded in snapping his snowboard. ( not actually in two, but its bent and the core is clearly broken - so pretty terminal )
Reason for this post is that I am disgusted with the behaviour of his insurance company, and thought it worthy of discussion.
Basically, the fall happened 'last run'  on Sunday on the Cachette run about half way down just before the blue (Sources?) run crosses it. I was already in the bar at this time, but the radio call let us know that we had a 'man down'.
Brave lad, he had heard his bone break but picked himself up and proceeded to side slip down the run - in the heavy snow conditions he caught an edge and fell again, and decided that he'd be better off riding down the run in a more normal fashion 
We escorted him to the Medi centre near the 3 Arcs bar where he was seen by the Doc - the x-ray revealed the extent of the damage, and the Doc suggested he go to Chambery hospital in the morning with a view to surgery to plate his bones back together. The doc strapped him up and we got a prescription for painkillers and anti inflammatories and were assured that the Pharmacy in Bourg would be open. ( sunday night after 6pm....hmmmm ) It wasn't. Our friendly hotel owner managed to dig out some pretty impressive painkillers and that got our boy through the night.
We decided that we wanted our chap flown home asap and get treatment at a UK hospital - the idea of being stuck in france and having the operation didn't seem a good plan ( as good as French health care might be ) - we had made sure we had a 'safe to fly' letter from the Doc.
So, Sunday evening we started calling the insurance company. It was a call centre with 2 people on, who could make no plans until 'the offices' opened at 9am ( 10am our time in France ).
Next morning (monday), and we traded a few calls with the company and the upshot was that they wouldn't do anything without a second opinion and that anyway "you are flying home tomorrow(tuesday) so can't he wait to go home til then?"
Clearly we explored the options, but finally gave up with the insurance company cos things weren't going to move quick enough. So in the end we felt it was easier to rebook his flight with easyjet and get him to airport under our own steam. He could then be met in the UK by family and taken to his local hospital for treatment.
It doesn't necessarily suprise me that the insurance company dithered and were obstructive - i have a pretty low opinion of the industry anyway - but I do think they could have done more....
All we needed them to do was to book a taxi to the airport, arrange a flight and get him a taxi home at the other end.
We haven't explored the claim further with them as yet but clearly the claim will be going in the Doc's bill, the flight etc.
I'd really appreciate comment from all you out there - do you think we expected too much ? - do you have similar stories or do you have stories of insurance companies that were more helpful ?
For the record, the company was Snowcard Insurance http://www.snowcard.co.uk/ and I know eight guys who will go no where near them in the future.
Cheers,
Richie_s
This is the response of Russell Dadson, MD of Snowcard as posted by him on page 3 of this topic.
It has been copied here by request of Snowcard under snowHeads' policy of 'Right to Fair Reply' when a company has been criticised on the public forum. Any further discussion on this topic should continue as normal below his original post.
| Ru$$ell wrote: |
Hi Richie,
I thought it may be helpful to get involved with this thread although it goes back a few years. To investigate more fully with Assistance International who look after our clients, I would need the insured's name but reading through your comments I can probably guess what the situation was. Where someone is injured and Assistance International are asked to help fly someone home, they have to obtain a certificate from the attending doctor confirming that the injured party is fit to fly. Airlines will not accept bookings for emergency repatriations unless the client has been medically cleared to get on an airplane. In some situations, it is dangerous to fly if an injury is unstable. On Sunday evening, I expect it would have been very difficult for Assistance International to get the required doctors certificate. As your friend was flying back on the following day I expect it would have been quickest for him to make his booked flight anyway but Assistance International do have procedures they have to follow which sometimes may seem cumbersome but in practice, the best interests of the patient are paramount. If there was in any way a failure on their part to advise your friend I am more than happy to take this up with them and investigate further although it was so long ago, it is a shame we were'nt advised about this situation at the time and I am afraid I have only recently been made aware of this string. Assistance International has been looking after our clients for 20 years and have proved themselves time after time in some very difficult situations, if they weren't good we would go elsewhere. Having said this, everyone has a right to expect a first class service and we are here to help in the event of problems. Let me know if I can comment further. Kind regards Russell Dadson, Director, Snowcard Insurance email russell@snowcard.co.uk |
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 17-10-11 23:08; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Sorry to hear of your accident.
Insurance companies will always look to minimise costs to themselves.
It is standard practice on packages for the injured party to travel home on the flight at the end of the holiday, which they have already paid for. Hence, there is often a broken limb or two on many return charter flights to the UK.
Insurance companies do not usually have arrangements to cut the trip short and fly the injured party back on a different flight - as they would have to pay for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I think that possibly depends on the severity of the injury and the treatment needed though. I suppose a more serious injury or medical probelm mey need nursing assistance on the journey or even an air ambulance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Richie_S, Sorry to hear of your friends' accident. A nasty break by the look of it. Why was he so against having it plated in France, they probably do more fixing of these in Chambery? I am sorry to say you will most likely have a hard fight to get the flight costs refunded, as these tend to require "authorisation" from the insurer. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
With hindsight, whilst it's something hospitals will see a lot of, those around the Alps are likely to offer the best care as they will see so many traumas like this, in the same way, for example, that Belfast is one of the safest cities in which to be shot! Insurance company is likely to object on the basis that adequate treatment was available in France I should think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
OTOH, they must save a bit if most of the treatment is in the UK on the NHS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hmmmmnnn, a bit of a toughie. If it is deemed by untrained people that the injury should be treated ASAP then I would be wanting to get back to the UK. I would pay all the bills needed to do this and then go cap in hand to the insurance company. I wouldn't second guest what they may pay for but as the bill for a flight and taxi might be in the region of £150-200 I would bite the bullet and get it over with. Sometimes peace of mind overides saving a few pennies and I would have done exactly what you did and anything back from the Insurance Co would be a bonus.
I'd just be glad I got back to the NHS for treatment if I possibly could. Thats not to start an arguement over who is best, just get home and get it treated. I'm of the opinion that once you have made up your mind to come home, you get home quick.
Richie_S, sorry to hear about the accident
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Richie_S, sorry to hear about that. I think Snowcard seem to have been crap.
I speak with the experience of being re-patriated with a (slightly) broken back (club class all the way and an ex-RAF Nurse escort, sadly a bloke but a top chap) and my father requiring an emergency quadruple heart bypass while on holiday in the US. At a cost around $80,000 for the surgery, etc. his insurers were golden. They did react a little surprised when called by my brother, "will you authorise 4-ple bypass on my father please?"
Don't expect them to pay out sadly. B*stards. You may have an argumentthat with injuries of that seriousness, they were negligent in not coming up with direction/solution ASAP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Thanks for the comments.
I'm sure the French treatment would have been good ( my father in law retired to france and has direct experience of the level of care ) - however, it was really the idea of being stuck in France for several days while surgery was arranged and really as he was ok to fly, it just seemed better to get him home to his partner.
JT, your reasoning is just like ours, and ultimately it wasn't 'hard' to sort out getting flights changed etc. It was just frustrating that the insurance company didn't take the lead in sorting it out.
As a positive statement for the good ole NHS, he was seen at A&E at his local hospital within five minutes... they have suggested surgery is not nessary and that the bones have moved into a better position where they 'should' heal without the need to steel plates - all that's needed is time. He's now signed off work for 6 weeks and on the look out for an automatic car !!
This is our first serious injury in 10 years of trips, so the first real experience of insurance for anything other than nicked snowboards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Having read your comments I'm surprised, a family at the hotel I was staying in earlier this year had a similar accident although possibly a little more serious, they too were with snowcard and were very happy with their service which included extending the grandfathers stay at the hotel so he could return home with his son in law who had to have his shoulder joint replaced with a titanium ball, they covered everything including taxis to and from the airports and an extra seat on the plane for the cast. Perhaps you were unlucky. I would have called them imediately the first doctor had looked at the xrays using their emergency medical number, you'd have probably got a better result
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
D G Orf, absolutely. The key is to keep the assistance company involved right from the get-go... after all, that's why Snowcard give you a card with the number on, Fogg give you a card with the number on, Dogtag give you a dog tag with the number on etc etc! Doh! Assistance companies need the chance to manage a situation from the start (for the benefit of the injured and, yes, keeping half an eye on the money) but it looks like demands were made of them after various others had taken matters into their own hands.
It is very easy to trash perfectly good insurance companies in forums like this but, in my experience, you can normally trace the fault back to the insured. We all enter into contracts when we sign up for policies and some people should take ten minutes out and actually read about what they've bought. The insurance companies, assistance companies and claims handling companies work within the policy wording and are obliged (by the ombudsman, FSA etc) to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
I think problems can arise when you contact the Emergency numbers at night and weekends. At these times the people taking the calls do not have medical knowledge or even access to medical advice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JohnHill, so you blame us for not reading the small print ?! Whatever... Yes, snowcard provide a convenient wallet sized card - which tells you in bold print to ring the emergency number if hospitalisation is likely for more than 48 hours. We didn't ring whilst in the medi-centre, as the first priority was to ensure our mate was comfortable and that we had all the facts to hand. We didn't 'take matters in to our own hands' - we got our mate seen by the medi-centre ( what else would you do ? ), ensured he was given 'first aid' and made 'comfortable', we made sure we had a letter describing the situation, an x-ray and a certificate to fly letter. We were advised to go to Chambery hospital in the morning. So we DID ring the insurer once we had got our mate comfortably back to our hotel, which I think is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and it was certainly within two hours of the accident. We took no further steps without talking to the insurer, or rather the insurers call centre. Who told us there was nothing they could do til Monday morning - therefore EVEN if we had called them once we got to the medi-centre ( which would've been about 5.30 ish Sunday) I would be very surprised if the call centre would have been able to do anything else.
Yes, it is easy to trash 'perfectly good insurance companies' on forums - but I feel i was pretty fair in my original post - I've put the facts of our situation out there and even asked for comments on whether I was expecting too much. Clearly, your advice is to ring as soon as you have an accident. Personally, I'd rather make sure my friend or family member was getting attention before getting embroiled in a debate with some Call Centre muppet.
D G Orf, glad you had a good experience with Snowcard. Good to get a balanced view.
IF I were to give Snowcard the benefit of the doubt, I'd say we were trying to rush the situation - we were on a weekend, and therefore wanted it sorted out quick, so when it got beaurocratic we simply thought we'd get it sorted for the few quid extra it cost. Secondly, maybe they ( the insurance industry ) considered a collar bone injury to be non-serious and hence there was nothing they would necessarily have done anyway....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Richie_S, sorry to hear about your friend. I think that
| Quote: |
maybe they ( the insurance industry ) considered a collar bone injury to be non-serious
|
is, I suspect eaxctly the point.
In the UK fractured collar bones are very rarely plated and the opposite is true in some parts of Europe, with the result that no British-based insurance company is going to be over-keen to do anything much. The fractured ends of bone often overlap especially initially, there is usually quite a lump at the fracure site as the bones heal, but 6-12 monthe later your body has remolded it nicely and on XRay usually looks indistinguishable from the unfractured side.
So the treatment in the UK would be: Pain relief and "sling" (cost £minimal) as against probably unnecesaary operation to plate - ?several thousand euros. You can understand their wish to sit on their hands and quietly get him home on his original flight.
BTW - I hope D G Orf, 's experience of Snowcard is more typical as they are insuring us for our trip to Tignes next week
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Nick L, "do as much nothing as possible"? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Up till this incident I'd only heard good things about snowcard, however there will always be exceptions to the rule and in this case Richie_S, seems to have suffered.
In the case I described above I understand that they were going to plate or pin the shoulder joint but when they opened up the joint to do the work they found that the ball part of the joint was actually very badly damaged (more so than was apparent on the xrays apparently) so they closed up the shoulder spoke with the innsurer and ordered a titanium replacement which they fixed in the following day, I understand that the hospital at Interlaken has a very good department for such work although they apparently are really specialists at repairing knees
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Richie_S, Had a similar incident happen to me in Megeve 5 years ago. Broke my collar bone in 4 places (not that it's a competition). Insurance got involved at roughly the same time as with you. I ended up with a few days in hospital and having my bone fixed over there. I also tried to arrange changing flights to bring them forward. The company (Europ Assist), who I'm now a fan of, were against this until they realised I wanted to book a standard fare. Going along with the previous comment about 'minimising costs', it was mentioned to me that people often tried booking the most expensive tickets once they thought it was paid for by the insurers. For this reason, what they were unkeen on was the client booking anything themselves, rather than the concept of changing flights per se.
Because of all that, I would have faith that a decently worded letter, explaining situation, with all reasonably priced bills included would be met with favourable response. Fingers and collar bones crossed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Nick L, you are right no doubt. damburton, I'm sure a letter will sort things out. It's all done now, and it's minimal re-imbursement.
I'll keep this all in mind for the future thou. I'd expected the insurer to really take control - they are the experts - but it's evident that you, as the insured, have to make the effort to get the result you want. Not sure why that should have been a surprise
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Interesting that the french wanted to plate a collar bone - not done all that often in the UK as they usually heal fine by themselves.
Could it be that the system is different over there and the surgeon gets paid a lot more if he does an operation...?
Call me cynical if you want...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
French Doctors... hmm... in the process of sueing one.
German Doctors... hmmm... missed with the laser and left a bloody great heamatoma just above my right knee.
English-trained doctors... never a problem, so far.
Draw your own conclusions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I found this reference to SnowCard quite by accident as I was looking for something on Google.
I felt that I had to write and redress the balance as I can speak from personal experience following a serious skiing accident in 2003 which resulted in surgery in France (very good) and great care and attention from everyone at SnowCard including their Agents. I was finally flown home a week later complete with my own nurse who flew out from the UK to check I was fit to fly and to accompany me back home. Although the whole experience was not one I would like to repeat all praise to SnowCard.
I am sure that there are many extenuating circumstances surrounding an insurance claim but the fact is that when you have a policy you have to totally adhere to the terms and conditions and do what it says. If you don't then certainly you risk invalidating your claim. In conclusion I would recommend SnowCard every time for skiing, boarding and adventure holidays.
The thing that bothers me most is that when people have a negative experience they tell a lot of people yet when we have a great experience we forget to do that! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Susan Beesley, welcome to SnowHeads. This is a very old thread here that has been revived. I did notice my own comment above, which came back to haunt me last year when my husband did need to return home early after a serious injury.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was so impressed by snowcard's handling of my medical clain some years back that I have stuck with them. Just one word of caution, you can get various levels of cover. Make sure that what you buy is right for you. Susan Beesley, welcome to snowheads.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Got to say, I used Snowcard and have had nothing at all to complain about.
When I snapped my ACL I called the emergency number and it all happened from there.
Extra seats on plane booked and paid for by them, taxi (driven by a nurse of some sort) from Wengen>GVA. They phoned the doctor in resort to check I was ok to travel etc. They paid up the doctor/crutches etc bills that I had put on my card without quibble.
Perhaps because I didnt need hospitalisation or special transport home it fitted under some expenditure limit and so all just happened.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
lampbus, it should all 'just happen' even with hospitalisation, ambulance transfers, major surgery, accommodation for relatives and flights home, provided it is covered by your policy and you are not expecting them to do anything which isn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Beesley, welcome to snowheads, good to have a positive report. We had a good experience with snowcard too, but we did it by the book - contacted them immediately and didn't try to second guess everybody. A golden rule with insurance companies is to get in touch right away, and don't expect them to pay retrospectively for arrangements they've had nothing to do with. Plain daft, in my book, to try to fly someone with a serious injury home from France, rather than have them treated locally. My daughter in law was treated for a busted knee ligament in France, but needed special flight home with extra seat and private ambulance door to door both end. No problems. the only reason I don't still use Snowcard is that their trip length limit, which is inflexible, is too short for us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I understand it's an old thread but a word to the wiser from some who spends an awful amount of time waiting around in Cles hospital casualty dept, watching friends and relatives desperately reading through the small print of their insurance policy to try and discover if they are covered for whatever just happened.
1 Check your insurance policy covers you for what you need and read it "before" you go.
2 Keep all receipts and maintain an audit trail of the event.
You can download a free Ski Accident Audit Trail sample here
3 If you or someone you know has an accident then do what the doctor tells you to do. So if they tell you to go to the hospital next day with a view to getting surgery, don't ignore these instructions ( Richie_S ???) then throw a Pandora when the insurance Co will not play along with your wiki medical opinion and incident management decisions.
4 Inform the insurance Co as soon as you think you may wish to make a claim.
5 Remember that insurance companies will stick rigidly to the terms of the contract (policy). If you’re covered then everything is fine, if you’re not then you have problem. “Ensure” you’re covered for whatever it is you’re going to do, before you do it or (and I understand that in these PC days this is not a very popular thing to suggest) accept responsibility for your own actions and, if it goes wrong, accept that you’re going to have to pay out.
6 Remember that you're only covered for the items shown on your policy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Wayne, 'throw a Pandora' - .... quality 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Wayne, think you summed it up quite nicely
there seems to be a lack of people "taking responsibility for their own actions" these days
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
My sister in law had a bad ACL accident - stretchered off the mountain (had the local insurance for that), got treated locally but then it all went pear shaped. I had told them to ensure they had chains (staying in our apartment, in our absence) and was watching the forecasts and advised that it could be very snowy when they left. (they had not been able to get any chains from Europcar Geneva (French) and arrived too late for supermarkets, with dry roads). Also told them to ring their insurance company immediately. They did neither. Frantic dash around for chains in resort on the morning of departure, easyJet wouldn't take her (she had a full leg brace!), had to stay over in Geneva overnight, general pandemonium. They kept receipts etc but I have never dared ask them whether they got the money back from the insurance company. If I'd been their insurers I'd have told them to take a jump.
I was also p'd off because I'd given them a lot of time and effort trying to ensure they had the snowchains. Some people just won't be told - and they're always the ones who end up moaning at others. she had at least taken my advice on buying Carré Neige. The fall was very bad luck - she was in a ski lesson and got knocked sideways, getting off a chairlift, by another beginner. The rest was their own fault.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Many people still buy a policy without reading it. Seems a bit daft to me when I see them reading it for the 1st time in the casualty dept.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I'd read my Snowcard Ski policy when I duly informed them that I'd been referred for an MRI scan on 1 knee one summer. Their swift response was to withdraw cover for knee related conditions. Not that they knew which knee, as I'd not told them. I was also quite surprised at their initial refusal to cover the trips I'd got planned that summer, just as well I'd booked and paid for those trips months earlier (before the referral was made). I would have gone regardless, and advised them so.
Post scan, the consultants summing up consisted of 3 words "You're getting old". Seems I have age related Patellofemoral Osteoarthritis. Snowcard however, would not reinstate cover until I'd sent the consultants' letter to them several times over. Contemplated driving it to their office. I've not been back. Skied 40 days last winter, knee just the same as usual, but now I know how to manage it. Snowcard for me were just a tad too keen to take their umbrella back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
snowbunny, that must have been annoying, but probably most insurance companies would do the same. They only survive, after all, if they mostly insure people against things that ain't gonna happen. My husband has coronary artery disease, and has had a by-pass and a subsequent stent. We have extremely expensive insurance - but it excludes those conditions. Ultimately, of course, it doesn't make economic sense to insure against any risk you can afford to run - and that is particularly the case if you think your guess is better than the insurance company's.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
[bSusan Beesley, [/b], it is quite interesting googling your name
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rayscoops, I see what you mean.
Good to see Pyramis lives
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| snowbunny, that must have been annoying, but probably most insurance companies would do the same. They only survive, after all, if they mostly insure people against things that ain't gonna happen. My husband has coronary artery disease, and has had a by-pass and a subsequent stent. We have extremely expensive insurance - but it excludes those conditions. Ultimately, of course, it doesn't make economic sense to insure against any risk you can afford to run - and that is particularly the case if you think your guess is better than the insurance company's. |
If I am reading the Snowcard medical declaration correctly that medical history would not cause an application for cover to fail under this section
| Quote: |
| d.Nobody has any breathing or heart problem which has needed hospital treatment in the last 12 months. |
unless further treatment was ongoing or scheduled.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OH swears by snowcard, after being blood sledded off the mountain with concussion a few years ago. Didn't have to pay a penny in advance.
As far as going back to the UK, after experience of both systems, there is NO WAY I'd come back to the UK for medical treatment on anything if treatment was advised in France. Both friends I know who didn't originally have collar bones plated (UK, car accident) ended up having to go back and have them plated after they didn't heal properly... NHS mantra is "see if the cheap option works, even if 1 in 10 chance of working". The French get things done, and done right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
