 Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, how about the wind groomed we skied at Big Sky? Got any shots of the bowl? Liberty Bowl was really fun, but I don't have the video from Tom, yet... I'd say that they were both steeper than 38 degrees, wouldn't you?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat,
Nice pics,
I will try to get some video pics converted so I can post them.
I don't know the name of the couliors but they hang off the back of the Envers du plan and run out onto the Mer du Glace.
Very steep and comparable to the Extreme Couloir, possibly.
Anyone know the names..??
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It's really hard to tell how steep those are from photos, isn't it? I have the video from Elkhorn, but I haven't been able to upload it anywhere, yet!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ssh, how much space do you need?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Well, this one is a bit over 15MB. But, it's me. I can clip yours together like this one if you want, and get that to you, too!
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ssh, I've no problem in hosting yours for you too!
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Wear The Fox Hat, on its way to you. The videos are on Elkhorn and the Moonlight bumps, interestingly enough!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It will probably be tomorrow before I get them up. Not going to do it over a wireless connection, so I'll get the files on my desktop.
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ssh, not wanting to deviate the thread toooo much, you just looked a little bit like a chap I skied with there a couple of years ago. I will attribute the mis-identification to the helmet and similarity of 'tache. Not to worry, always best to ask. 
Back to steeps, yes "Couloir extreme" is rather fun but I seem to recall that you want to pick your time of day correctly. It's all very well while soft and bumpy but an entirely different marmite des poissons when in shade, bumpy and icy.
Another thought, there is a scale of steepness for ski touring (which I can't find on-line) which runs from S1 to S6, with S6 being around what I'd classify as preposterous. Maybe we should adopt that? I'll try and track it down.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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on Steeps, here's a useful scale used in touring of what's steep and what's not I've included intermediate grades where they were amusing...:
S1, Easy. Low-angled.. Only novice downhill technique required.
S2-, Angle up to 25 degrees. Easy terrain such as broad slopes. Ability to sideslip and stem-turn will get you down. Avalanches unlikely or impossible.
S2, Longer pitches than S2-, can be a steep narrow trail or actual glisse descent. Up to 25 degrees. Novice skiers or snowboarders can handle this terrain with basic technique.
S3-, Slopes up to 30 degrees, similar to an easy "expert" run at a resort. Avalanches uncommon but possible with unstable snow.
S3, Slopes up to 35 degrees, similar to an "expert" run at a resort. A skier or rider capable of S3 should have solid technique in any type of snow. This is often prime avalanche terrain.
S4, Slopes over 35 degrees but under 45 degrees, usually steeper than an S4-, may have fall potential and terrain obstacles such as narrows. Avalanche danger always a concern.
S4+, Slopes just under 45 degrees, may have fall potential and terrain obstacles. S4+ is borderline extreme skiing and snowboarding. Avalanches are slightly less common on these slopes, but nonetheless occur enough to be a concern.
S5-, Slopes at 45 degrees or slightly over. Fall potential on firm snow. This is bonafide extreme skiing. Because snow can't easily accumulate at these angles, slab avalanches are less common, but can occur. Loose snow avalanches are common.
S5, Slopes between 45 degrees and 55 degrees. Technique for steep terrain required if turns are made. Fall potential almost always present. Loose snow avalanches are common, especially after new snow accumulations; slab avalanches are uncommon.
S5+, Most of the route near or at 55 degrees. This is technical extreme terrain. Fall potential always exists. Death from a fall likely if steep sections are long. Loose snow avalanches are common, especially after new snow accumulations; slab avalanches are uncommon.
S6, Most of the route steeper than 55 degrees. This is extreme terrain that's safe for only the elite athlete if turns are made. Sideslipping and ropework may be mandatory. Loose snow avalanches are common, especially after new snow accumulations; slab avalanches are uncommon.
S6+, Same angles as S6, but with extenuating circumstances, such as cliffs, icefalls, and other obstacles. Avalanches are the least of your concerns. You might be better off on crampons so you can claim a first ascent.
S7-, A number of sections approaching 60 degrees steep; short sections may be 60 degrees. Fall potential a given. Avalanches? Who cares.
S7, Much of the route is around 60 degrees steep. Ropework may be optional or mandatory and should be clarified in rating and text description. Any avalanches probably happened before you got there.
S8 Only experienced on barstools, on film, and in dreams
I really must acquire an inclinometer!
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 20-02-05 11:26; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Murdoch,
Good post. I now know where is the boundary of extreme skiing.
Been wondering ever since watching Warren Miller's 2004 film. I think these people do more than 60 degrees too.
If I dream of doing a S8 slope and wet my pants does this classifies as a wet dream?
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oops wrong page.....  .
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You know it makes sense.
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saikee, cheers.
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If I dream of doing a S8 slope and wet my pants does this classifies as a wet dream?
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Only if you enjoy the experience.
Just thinking this is a little (a lot really, especially as it was invented by a mountaineer) like climbing difficulty grades which get surmounted over time by better technique and equipment. So as this was created around 1977 by Anselme Baud, maybe S8 now implies simply a switch takeoff, pulling a couple of inverts on the way down and a lot of powder at the bottom to make a mess off - cameraman mandatory. Limited to those under 25 with a subliminal deathwish.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ssh, "Wind Groomed" - what a delightful expression; straight into my lexicon of snow. That rare occurrence when a totally random force conspires with serendipity to get a field of snow into terrific shape.
I have to ask...do you get "Wind Corduroy" as well? 
Wear The Fox Hat, Moonlight bumps look kind of fun too.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, Great pictures. I think I would feel a tad exposed on the second route.
Also want to point out that I take no responsibility for the text that I copied and pasted, nor for its veracity when it comes to describing avalanche probability!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof,
From that aspect the second pic does not look at all good, hope it was better closer up.
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davidof, I'm Just back from Alpe D'huez last week and saw no sign of a track on the Tunnel run unless you mean the track that runs to the tunnel (which we avoided). The scary bit is coming out of the tunnel and starting into the bowl. The top just out of the tunnel was a bit hairy - steep and the bowl is narrow at that point and it had started to build big moguls. But after the first 10ft or so the unpisted moguls were of a nice size and I thought the skiing was pretty good. The Sarene black two days earlier (Wednesday) was even nicer - was one of the first people on it. Had been closed earlier in the week due to high winds and snow. Wednesday morning it opened and most of it had been freshly pisted so was real easy to ski - skiied one section that hadn't been pisted, that was much harder, if the whole run had been like that I would have been completley shattered.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The earlier editions of the Good Ski Guide always thought it worth mentioning if a piste was over 30º. There weren't many and they were mostly in North America.
Can't remember any over 36º being mentioned.
Continuing the off-topic off-piste slopes: This is a good, steep but broad couloir we skied at Bonneval last year (about 380 metres vertical for the actual couloir). But the photo was taken from the bottom of the first lift this Jan before the snow came: not really enough snow to get in at the top.
And this was rather steep but interesting (the Rockgarden: Val Cenis) : I'm the one with the orange jacket and the guide looking up at me: the bottom of the tree on my left is about 8 or 10ft below me.
But this is the one I keep going on about (50º the guide book said); the Punte Victoria at Alagna. (Sorry I don't have a better pic but I dropped my camera down the cliff).
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When people are talking about a slope being 30º. Are you talking about the average gradient over the entire length of the slope or the steepest gradient? I've skied many pisted slopes with sections that I would consider to be over 36º. A quick glance through old skiing albums reveals photos like this one of a section of slope 14 in Zell am See.
This photo is 640x480 (or more or less), the trees are pointing upwards (or if anything up the slope) and the slope is almost corner to corner making it 75% gradient or 36.85º
If you only consider the average gradient, then you don't necessarily do justice to slopes. Sections of The Wall in Avoriaz (ok, not technically a piste) or the Zwolferkogel Nordfahrt above Hinterglemm were to my eyes, at least 45º
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The zielschuss in Wengen is very steep, but very short - I've skied it a long time ago, and hope to do so again. Could Mayrhofen be trying to get rid of their "beginners resort" image? We have winches on our piste machines for all the blacks and most of the reds - but some of the blacks are too steep to piste (Grand Couloir and Fee north wall). I'll try to find out how steep the bottom part of the Super Diable is - it's seriously steep whatever, and that's pisted.
If a run is that steep I'd rather ski it in deep snow than a flat piste.
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Dave Horsley,The Tunnel is now exited to the right around a path which drops into the bowl, I was told that this was a modification as the exit in the past was to ski straight forwards out of Tunnel and drop into the bowl. Whilst I was there that would have been around about a 10 foot drop.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting thread. I particularly like the grading! However, it doesn't give enough credit to the exposure involved and on this point I totally agree with davidoff. Exposure is the single biggest thing that effects my decision as to whether I am prepared to ski a slope. For instance, the couloir at the top of Mien Martin (spelling?) near Val D'Idere is about 58 degrees but it has such a run out that it would be hard to really do any damage (except for the risk of setting off an avalanche). The steepest section is only for about 30 metres so if you have the b##ls, its a great place to try your ultimate extreme skill, if you are happy with the long skin to get there. However, there are many slopes of under 50 degrees I wouldn't want to ski because of cliffs below.
However, I cannot agree with him on the point " You would not be able to stop a fall on an icy 35 degree slope". The late Giles Green developed a method of self arrest for steep slopes which he showed to work in very extreme circumstances. Giles skied down the icefall just outside of Val D'Isere, the one just by the last tunnel before town which is used to teach ice climbing and in a sector of about 50 degrees he fell and self arrested. I am not saying I could have done it, but it is possible!
Another point raised is the extreme angles shown in the Warren Miller film 2004. I haven't seen it but he is a past master of increasing the apparent angle of the slope by tilting the camara a little. Conventional wisdom used to be that about 62 degrees was the steepest that could be skied because any steeper and the boot will contact the mountain before the edge. Soft snow increases this to about 65 degrees and some of the real extreme specialists (not Warren Miller stars ) have been using raised mounts for their bindings to help push the limits. I believe the steepest claimed is 68 degrees by a guy in Chamonix (forgotten his name) who has since been killed in an avalanche.
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mesk1, Didn't look to be much of a path to me, though I agree we did exit to the right and then drop into the bowl. I then skiied over to the left below and under the tunnel exit as the snow was slightly easier there. The friend I was skiing with who skiied it about 8 years ago didn't comment that it was any different - though when he did it he said that year he had about 2m of vis and that it was really scary as you had no idea what you were skiing into. That time he had also skiied right from out of the tunnel along big rutted steps much the same a this year. Though he said someone had skiied straight out of the tunnel and over the drop last time he was there. Wouldn't have wanted to do that this year as directly below the tunnel entrance there was a band of rocks showing - I assumed this was because there wasn't much snow at altitude this year. It would be interesting to have look at it in the summer and see what engineering/ remodelling they have done.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kamikaze, that looks familar - I went down the second half on my backside back in 1992!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The Fly Paper at Glencoe is reputedly meant to be 38 degrees. more info on http://www.snowspots.org/index.php/Fly_Paper and some pics
Also I think Val Thorens use cables on some of their bashers to prevent them being avalanches when grooming less steep pistes if they are in exposed location.
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| SimonN wrote: |
, there are many slopes of under 50 degrees I wouldn't want to ski because of cliffs below.
However, I cannot agree with him on the point " You would not be able to stop a fall on an icy 35 degree slope". The late Giles Green developed a method of self arrest for steep slopes which he showed to work in very extreme circumstances. Giles skied down the icefall just outside of Val D'Isere, the one just by the last tunnel before town which is used to teach ice climbing and in a sector of about 50 degrees he fell and self arrested. I am not saying I could have done it, but it is possible!
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Yes, I skied with Giles and he taught me his self arrest method and made me practice it. It saved my life when I fell on the 50º Victoria couloir in Alagna above 300 metre cliffs! I couldn't have stopped if it had been icy but it was what the French call soufle dur. (don't know how to do accents on here)
Did you learn it?
38º sounds about right for the flypaper. I haven't been there for about 15 years, but the first time I saw it was from a couple of inches up, head first, as I had tripped just short of the crest and slid right over (and, of course, all the way down, though luckily it isn't far and I had quickly turned to feet-first)!
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You know it makes sense.
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| SimonN wrote: |
However, I cannot agree with him on the point " You would not be able to stop a fall on an icy 35 degree slope". The late Giles Green developed a method of self arrest for steep slopes which he showed to work in very extreme circumstances. Giles skied down the icefall just outside of Val D'Isere, the one just by the last tunnel before town which is used to teach ice climbing and in a sector of about 50 degrees he fell and self arrested. I am not saying I could have done it, but it is possible!
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I'm familiar with Giles' method but my statement is true for 99% of skiers skiing on today's shorter shaped skis, off-piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowball, Yes, I did learn it and practice it as well. I have happy(?) memories of Giles shouting at me as I slid down an icy section "encouraging" me to get it right and I remember the blistered finger tips I had from that little practice session
I am not sure that it has saved my life but it does give me a different pespective on exposure. Now, if there is room to self arrest before a drop, I feel happier about skiing it.
davidof, I hadn't considered that today's skis would make the sef arrest technique less effective and I am not sure I agree. Giles always said it worked just as well with skis on as with them off and that so long as you got all that "slid" off the snow, what was left could dig in. I do agree that 99% of skiers couldn't do it because like all technique, it needs practice and just elarning/being told about it won't make it happen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| SimonN wrote: |
davidof, I hadn't considered that today's skis would make the sef arrest technique less effective and I am not sure I agree. Giles always said it worked just as well with skis on as with them off and that so long as you got all that "slid" off the snow, what was left could dig in. I do agree that 99% of skiers couldn't do it because like all technique, it needs practice and just elarning/being told about it won't make it happen. |
I would have loved to have seen the demo you talked about at the VdI icefall.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| SimonN wrote: |
davidof, I hadn't considered that today's skis would make the sef arrest technique less effective and I am not sure I agree. Giles always said it worked just as well with skis on as with them off and that so long as you got all that "slid" off the snow, what was left could dig in. I do agree that 99% of skiers couldn't do it because like all technique, it needs practice and just elarning/being told about it won't make it happen. |
I would have loved to have seen the demo you talked about at the VdI icefall. |
I don't think it was meant to be a demo of the self arrest technique. I don't think he had any option! In other words, he fell on the icefall. It was still some of the most spectacular stunt skiing and the photos were just incredible. There was one that was used for some years by Precision Ski on their promo poster.
Another unbelievable stunt he pulled (allegidely!!) was to absail down a rope off the top of the Tignes dam and then "ski" the lower section. Now, if concrete is smooth, does that count as the steepest pisted run
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What was Giles technique? Did it involv additional kit?
Black Diamond was marketing a screw-in ice pick attachment to put on top of a touring pole. I've also seen footage of some snowboaders tackling a volcano is south america using very short technical ice axes in one hand. Less steep than the stuff we are talking about here.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| Black Diamond was marketing a screw-in ice pick attachment to put on top of a touring pole. |
I remember those from a ski mountaineering course in Glenmore Lodge in (about) 1984. We did get some odd looks. They were made of plastic and so didn't give us much confidence, would probably have been happier with my ice axe!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Plastic??? that's scary.... snap!
The ones I say were marketed three years ago and were metal.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just got back from Morzine/Avoriaz where I tackled the Wall. When asked by a mate 'how i would grade this run' as we were going up the chair alongside it the only classification I could think of was, 'well its a bit of a sh*tty nightmare'.
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| SussexSnow wrote: |
| Black Diamond was marketing a screw-in ice pick attachment to put on top of a touring pole. |
I believe they still do! I have practiced with these and have done a decent with them but luckily didn't test whether they worked in reality.
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SimonN, Is the technique similar to ice-axe arrest? Can you get decent purchase?
Cheers
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This thread started with a discussion on the black run No. 14 in Mayrhofen. Having just returned from there I can vouch that this is the steepest run I have ever seen. They claim it is the steepest pisted run in Austria, not the Alps and even the trees grow at a funny angle. It's called the Harikirri and a charlift runs alongside it so you can get a good view. Instructors have been told not to take guests down it and in about the 8 times I went past it, I only saw 2 people ski it properly. Plenty were side slipping down on skis and one guy fell at the top and slid all the way to the bottom of the steep part (about 80 metres). It was also icy. They use a winch to get the piste bashers up it. Only ski this run if you are a competent skier on blacks. I have done 9 weeks and didn't want to attempt it. That said, the run from the Ahorn into town is also very steep at the bottom and on the official piste map, is marked red, but on others black. I don't know if anyone can shed any light on how steep it is but it didn't look far off the Harikirri. Needless to say it took a while to get down it but I managed to stay upright!
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FAQ
