 Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, in the thread that we tremble to name, there were two points I was particularly interested in: a) objectivity ("am I really a 6 or am I kidding myself?") and b) universality ("does your 6 mean the same as my 6?"). It's interesting that you have the same issues, looking at it from the other side of the counter. I think the reason you get everyone saying 'Intermediate/advanced' is that either they've been looking at a marketing scale like that from Snow and Rock, or they are looking for new boots as they move to the more advanced reaches of their personal scale of experience. They can see what they were a year or two ago, and can see where they may go in the next year or two (but really can't differentiate between the end of that road and what is involved in being a Pro), and so are intermediate between those two endpoints, with an eye to further progression.
I assume your interest in this is setting up boots with appropriate compromises between stiffness and control or comfort and ease of use.
One of the useful points in that thread was an extension above the usual recreational scales, with similar levels in alternative disciplines. For your purposes though I'd assume that you'd actually need to split your scale according to intended purpose. For example, while for most recreational skiers I would guess that the performance of the boot is pretty much of a muchness, given a skiers weight and strength, but I would expect you're going to advise a completely different boot, and different criteria will come into play, for someone who's going to be a competitive racer or a competitive randonneur. And an instructor who's going to be pottering around students all day will probably want a much more comfortable boot than would be needed by a mogul-basher, and would need it to do different things.
So from your professional point of view, would not a carefully crafted set of questions about the skier's requirements not be better than a simple numerical scale? From our perspective it would be interesting to know what the factors are that really differentiate for you between different courses of advice.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mine's a 6 (instructor!) Spent many seasons hacking through what most would consider very poor conditions in Poland, had a great time. Hopping around icy rocks and grass patches doesn't seem to be on your scale. 
Would love to ski enough to move my technique up to 7 and beyond, though I don't have a competitive bone in my body. Does one need to aspire to winning in order to improve?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Charlatanefc, I am not sure just yet as I am not going Skiing this year. But may have to just to get a fix so to speak!!! Are you going?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Put me down for a 4 and a bit.
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I guess that I'm a 5 on your scale. I don't really have bad days but if the snow is really crappy (say breakable crust or piles of shavings on ice and bad viz) then I will get slowed down and be much less fluid (tends to be more apparent to me than people watching me). Also if bumps are really big and icy then I won't nail the zip line although I will link turns neatly and be in control. I've never done any race training so I think that caps any claims that I might make - maybe that in itself means that I'm only 4.5.
I wonder if these scales are helpful at all. In my experience, I had to reach a new level in my skiing before I really understood the weaknesses that I used to have - makes self-assessment a little tricky. Example - if you ask an intermediate skier whether they were in control on a section, they will probably say yes. As you get better your "bar" for control changes, you look back and think "I couldn't have changed direction immediately, I might have slipped if I hit ice, how could I think I was in control?".
One ski school I used had basically abandoned self-assessment of technique, they just asked what sort of terrain you were happy on. I have some sympathy with this because it's a) helpful (the instructor knows where he can sensibly take you) and b) objective (in a funny kind of way - you should be able to judge where you are happy skiing!). The top level was "go anywhere". We, a little embarrassed about claiming to be in the top level, told the instructor that we were in that category. You could see him (he was French) give a suspicious look "it's OK steep? with trees?". Pretty soon he had us carving big fast turns on a closed black run (lots of bumps, rocks, bushes and a memorable stream bed) - not a bad way to remind you that you have a lot to learn. We had a good lesson at the end he told us that "you have a good standard" (which was nice) and also said "you can be expert but you need to challenge yourselves". He said skiing fast in difficult conditions was a very important exercise to develop the flexible and reactive technique that is expert skiing.
Now clearly we are very far from being "top level" skiers but I wonder if an instructor or ski-shop needs to know much more than the terrain that you like to ski and the type of turns that you like to make? Unless you are racing, does a level 5 skier (on smallzookeeper's scale) need different equipment from a level 7? I say this because I now ski on Stockli Stormrider XLs which I bought after testing them in France. I was actually nervous before I tested them because I read lots of hype about how you needed to be "strong, aggressive and have good technique" to use them and thought I might get embarrassed, returning to the ski-shop with my tail between my legs. I actually found that they are a very good ski at my level - which when all is said and done is recreational (although probably towards the upper end).
If you go on mixed chalet holidays you always find someone starts asking about your skiing standard on the first night. I tend to say "well I worked a season so not bad for a punter". May be we should build a scale around that:
level x - not bad for a punter
J
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Erase this post please. We're off track! Just want you to think about it, so next time your in a shop you dont say, " Intermediate/advanced or 6-7". An honest description of your good days and bad days will help the shop staff! 
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, just to go back to your original scale, imho you've managed to encapsulate the gulf between "advanced" (level 5) and the top of the range very well, something that some of us were trying to get at in the previous thread, but without all the controversy on this occasion! (So far...)
There's some blurring of the lines between 7 and 10 though, but perhaps it doesn't matter for the purpose of your scale.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
| There's some blurring of the lines between 7 and 10 though, but perhaps it doesn't matter for the purpose of your scale. |
Quite. At that level customers would have a better idea what they need.
Any numbering system is only useful when qualified. Displaying the scale with explanations to your customers should cut down on misunderstandings. My only problem with this 1-10 scale is that it assumes that anyone striving for excellence must be a competitor. I push my boundries entirely for personal satisfaction and couldn't give a monkey's how many milliseconds faster anyone else might be.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Must admit that, coming from NZ, I was startled when a ski instructor (trying to assess my ability) asked how many weeks I'd skied.
Wondering how the hell that could help him, I answered truthfully - about 8. Which in my mind meant a few days here and there, on 8 different weeks (skiing in NZ is ad hoc, not the week-long TO fest it is in Europe).
It's all relative.
Had he asked how many days/often I had skiied, the conditions I'd skiied in, the colour of the slopes I felt comfortable on, whether I knew the difference between a stem-christie/swing turn/short turn/carving/braquage, whether I could hold more than 5 turns off piste without falling over, whether I could ski more than 3 moguls without shooting out the side of the field, whether I played in the snowpark, whether I knew what my DIN was (etc, ad nausem), THEN he might have had a better idea.
He only got a proper understanding when he watched me (fail to) ski.
My eyes are now what I rely on, having been in the position a number of times of meeting people who claim to be competent to a certain level and when upon demonstration they clearly aren't.
SMALLZOOKEEPER do you have space in the store for a magic carpet? Or a dryslope? Or ......... 
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Manda,
an instructor can only assess your ability by watching you ski (it takes him/her much less time than going through your past experiences). Anything else is just making conversation, getting to know you a little, which is also valuable but in a different way.
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You know it makes sense.
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Let's face it - this list business is completely hangover dependent.
If I'm fit, awake, full of energy etc. I can ski most things pretty well and the harder stuff is doable (with the exception of things which really only true experts get involved in: couloirs etc.) unless it's the bumps in which case I look like a frog in a blender.
If I went to bed at 5, got up at 8, tried to keep my brekkie down on the first chair of the day and am wearing goggles not for their assistance in helping me see, but so that I see less, I am obviously rubbish. Under these cicumstances I need soft boots, short skis with loads of sidecut.
What I DO think is that the terrain you ski, especially these days, does change what's appropriate for you. I speak more of the difference between the terrain park and the rest of the mountain here. The liklihood of me ever grinding a rail is similar to SMALLZOOKEEPER returing to the UK and running a milliners shop, I suspect, but I do understand that the people who choose to do this stuff need a ski with greater 'pop' and potentially greater flex.
I presume they still need well-fitting boots, however, for which it seems SMALLZOOKEEPER is da man. Sick yo (I understand that's what the kids would say ...)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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MartinH, ahhh yes a good instructor! Since then every instructor has waited till after I demo my moves before assigning me to a group. Mind you, I've also learned to assess why a question is being asked.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All this really means is have you matched up your percieved level with someone elses. In respect of hiring this is is useful if you don't know what you want from them. I tell the hire shop what skis I am looking for and after a brief exchange they might recommend a ski that I don't know. I'll then tell them what I want to do on it but will not overstate my case. There is no point, who are you trying to impress?, they have seen plenty better than you through their door. If I don't like a ski I go back for another one. These people mostly know what they are talking about, they are fans, they want you to come back. If this doesn't ring true what are you doing in their shop?
Give them as muich as you know and if they don't get it right go elsewhere. The first thing I do when I get to a resort is check out the ski shops and see whats available. In my case if the snow looks good then I'll be looking for a freeride ski....if it hasn't snowed for a while I will hire a slalom ski.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The terrain you ski is not a good gauge of your skiing level. It is how you ski it, how in control you are. I think that trying to classify people on a 1-10 or 1-100 scale is never going to be helpfull, as most people think they are above average (statistically impossible but a good way to preserve a positive self image). So, maybe you should ask - how long have you been skiing (in weeks), what do you enjoy the most in your skiing vacation, what types of turns do you like, how early in the day do you like to start skiing, what brings you to Chamonix (what was the main draw - my mates made me, good hotel, good deal, wanted to go somwere different etc opposed to - great off piste and wanted boots fitted in that small place near the Agiule rouge lift), have ever raced (and what level), have you ever used a transciever (ARVA), what other sports do you practice, and at what level, what ski school have you used, did you like them and at what level did they put you?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sugardaddy wrote: |
| The terrain you ski is not a good gauge of your skiing level. It is how you ski it, how in control you are. I think that trying to classify people on a 1-10 or 1-100 scale is never going to be helpfull, as most people think they are above average (statistically impossible but a good way to preserve a positive self image). So, maybe you should ask - how long have you been skiing (in weeks), what do you enjoy the most in your skiing vacation, what types of turns do you like, how early in the day do you like to start skiing, what brings you to Chamonix (what was the main draw - my mates made me, good hotel, good deal, wanted to go somwere different etc opposed to - great off piste and wanted boots fitted in that small place near the Agiule rouge lift), have ever raced (and what level), have you ever used a transciever (ARVA), what other sports do you practice, and at what level, what ski school have you used, did you like them and at what level did they put you? |
All this is true, it just helps when we have a clear point to start from. Belive-you-me, sit in front of me and you have no time to think about the answer to my questions, i just want to know where to start.
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but don't start with a numbered scale. Like i said, it simply isn't useful. you should use a questioning line that goes aroun peoples misconceptions, expectations and false self image. A very interesting book on this subject (although not directly relevant to your query) is : "how customers think" by Gerald Zaltman. He strongly supports the use of methaphors in place of the straight questions in client surveys.
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Deja Vu
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| sugardaddy wrote: |
| but don't start with a numbered scale. Like i said, it simply isn't useful. you should use a questioning line that goes aroun peoples misconceptions, expectations and false self image. A very interesting book on this subject (although not directly relevant to your query) is : "how customers think" by Gerald Zaltman. He strongly supports the use of methaphors in place of the straight questions in client surveys. |
Read the thead, sorry. We only ask open ended questions, wes aint vat fick. It's the answers we have to deal with.
" Oh, you know, on a scale of 1-10 i'm around about a 7."
We prefer to talk to you, even if you support ARSEnal.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Read the thead, sorry. We only ask open ended questions, wes aint vat fick. It's the answers we have to deal with.
" Oh, you know, on a scale of 1-10 i'm around about a 7."
We prefer to talk to you, even if you support ARSEnal.
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i read the thread, and it is not clear to me what are you trying to accomplish. If you were to use your scale, you'd get from most people that hey are a 4-5 instead of a 7-8. You could be happy with this as it implies that the avrage "punter" has some modesty and understands how much better a pro skier is, but it would not help you asess their ability any better. If you want a better tool to gauge your clients ability, needs and aims, stay away from a numbered scale. Most people are not good at self assesment, they don't know any better. It is your job, as a skilled appraiser, to guide them and help them uncover their level and their needs. Trust me, i use surveys on daily basis. The straight up question is almost never effective. it is fustrating but this is why good pollers also use social psychologysts and not only statistics people.
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I'd have thought that the answers to two questions would allow you to judge their standard and needs fairly well:
1. what sort of terrain do you like to ski?
2. what sort of turns do you like to make?
I reckon even I could point people to appropriate equipment based on answers to those.
J
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
On a scale of 1 to 10 how good a boot fitter are you?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thats a question to ask my clients.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Thats a question to ask my clients. |
....... what level would your clients normally be?
1, Beginner, never skied.
2, Beginner, skied a few times, not confident with the alltitude/danger.
3, Beginner/intermediate, linking turns, skiing on holiday without instruction.
4, Intermediate, growing in confidence. Likes to think can ski well on a good day, hates the bad days.
5, Intermediate/Advanced, fewer bad days, skis like a god on good days. Starting to stray further off piste.
6, Advanced/Instructor level, consistant skier all conditions.
7, Instructor/Competitor, pushes the boundries, trains and lives to ski. Pays the bills.
8, Competitor/Pro Rider, can ski as good as anyone on their day. Skiing new lines. Factory Sponsorship pending.
9, Pro Skier, early days but will be up there with the best, conditions/injuries/results pending.
10, World Champion/W/C winner, all of us, in our dreams. Changing the way we all ski!
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You know it makes sense.
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I would say all of them, very few World Champions, however they stop by from time to time. They have there own fitters, however the fitters for Salomon, Lange and Rossingnol are all our previous shop staff, so they stop by and use our tools and nick stuff.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just to add fuel to the fire...
What is the scale actually for?
IMHO, after some thought, is it not simply intended to give buyers who don't really know what they're looking for some idea of what sorts of areas they should be looking at when buying kit and to give shops some idea of where said buyer "is"?
I agree with Sugardaddy that quantifying anything beyond recreational is not possible/realistic/useful (i.e. beyond SZK's level 6).
IMHO I think that once you're at instructor or thereabouts level you no longer need a scale. You know enough to communicate your requirements to coaches/kit wizards/etc. without the help of a mono-dimensional indicator. And saying where you like to ski etc. is also unlikely to be helpful. Although, "I like tucking the Face de Bellevarde top to bottom," might be a giveaway...
The problem remains though that my observation is that your average skier finds it very hard to self-classify - at least the self classifications I hear are rarely the ones I would give out!
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK, last time. Please think carefully about your level of skiing, please don't simply quote a number. If you wish to quote a number, refer to my scale earlier. This will show, how different shop staffs understanding of scale is to yours. We will not understand much about your skiing ability if you simply quote a number. Yes, we will be asking you a series of well placed questions in order to have a better understanding of your aspirations and needs. Please do not let our questions upset you. If you are like our average client base, you will have little idea of your abilities and as in many cases, your ego will kick in. This may then cause you to be sold something less appropriate than required. This will waste your holiday time and slow down my flow of business. Thereafter you will be tempted to chat-on line, tell your friends how disappointed you are with; the product, shop, and manufacturer. This will damage reputations of all concearned, but more importantly, ruin your holiday you worked so damn hard all year to pay for. I don't care whether your a 10 or a big fat stinking 2. If you care, check out my scale. I hope you prefer to be someone who skis, like 'Da Da De Da' than be a number. Think hard, be honest and no ones time will be wasted and everyone will be happy. Now keep you fingers away from the keyboard, go to your rooms and think about it!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, you are trying to educate us! that's welcome, as i can always learn something, but please also consider that if an interviewer/poller does not get the answers he is looking for, he carries most of the blame for he is not asking the right questions.
Now, if a were to come in your shop and tell you something like: last year i did a week of off-piste with the UCPA in Chamonix, in the weaker of two groups. The instructor classified us as on the border between good level maitrise and low level expert (he curled his lips upwards and did a rotary motion with his fingers alternating between the two levels), would that be more helpfull? And while we're at it, do you think that at 80 kg i should soften Lange comp 120's (cut the plastic as i've already taken out the rear screws)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's generally helpful to me when patients come in and tell it to me like it is, without prejudice, colour, exaggeration, overlay, presumption, misconceptions, self-interpretation or fibbing. However it's my job to somehow try to reach the right conclusions, in spite of themselves and how they answer. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, if you will start it...
where's your shop/batcave? In-laws live in Chamonix Sud and have a small apartment business. They really should be referring winter guests to you maybe? PM me if you like...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah, I'm coming to Chamonix in January so it would be nice to pop in and say hi. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| sugardaddy wrote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER, you are trying to educate us! that's welcome, as i can always learn something, but please also consider that if an interviewer/poller does not get the answers he is looking for, he carries most of the blame for he is not asking the right questions.
Now, if a were to come in your shop and tell you something like: last year i did a week of off-piste with the UCPA in Chamonix, in the weaker of two groups. The instructor classified us as on the border between good level maitrise and low level expert (he curled his lips upwards and did a rotary motion with his fingers alternating between the two levels), would that be more helpfull? And while we're at it, do you think that at 80 kg i should soften Lange comp 120's (cut the plastic as i've already taken out the rear screws)? |
If you struggle to stay centred, perhaps. Try taking out the two bolts first, remember to remove the inserts inside the boots too and cover the holes with a little tape. If you're in Cham' this winter, stop by. You and your feet will yeld untold mysteries.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER, if you will start it...
where's your shop/batcave? In-laws live in Chamonix Sud and have a small apartment business. They really should be referring winter guests to you maybe? PM me if you like... |
Yep, stuggling to write this post as i'm in the process of cutting off; my tongue and fingers. Missus will have to reliy on my cooking from now on.
Cham-Sud is not too far from the shop, in fact my boss is the Mayor of Cham-Sud. Look for a shop that might sell boots and have some connections with feet. Bring some fish to feed the animals.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
Would it be better if people brought in a short display of themselves skiing (e.g. on tape or disc) rather than give you a biased opinion?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, ha ha what a fine idea!
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FAQ
on the blues & reds at Valmeinier / Valloire last time out (anyone know how they compare to similarly-graded runs in, say Chamonix or Les Arcs?). However, some of the 'green' tracks scared me half to death - 3 yards wide, too steep and icy for a snowplough to keep the speed down and with big drops off the edge 
So much for piste grading!
and look silly so I reckon I'm a cast-iron 3 on the scale above.
