Socks are a good solution for a UK driver who needs to keep mobile and wants a bit of 'insurance' just in case they're out and about when it snows. They're also an option for someone who is driving to the Alps as a one-off and doesn't feel that the cost of winter tyres is justified.
But if you are going to drive to/through Germany, Austria or N.Italy, you must have winter tyres (which make socks redundant).
If you're going to drive to the Alps every year, I'd say get winter tyres (even if not the above three countries). Winters are way better than socks anyway. Apart from the obvious advantage in alternating tarmac/slush/snow, they'll extend the life of your summer tyres so the main cost is swapping them twice a year. Mine are better (than summers) in the wet and cold as well so I get the benefit even in the UK.
With the winters, you'll also need chains but I'd agree it's tricky, because with winter tyres you'll almost never need them. So it's difficult to know whether to get the expensive ones or just cheap versions. Driving to the Alps for the last 12 years on winters, I've only needed chains twice. As I mentioned earlier, I opted for the pricey Spikes Spider Easy Alpines because they (a) fit a wider range of wheel sizes and I'd got fed up accumulating chains as I changed cars and (b) really do only take a couple of minutes to fit.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
In the second vid.
15 minutes to fit socks - who does he get to tie his shoelaces?
Socks take about 1 min per side ( including rolling forwards to tighten them )
Seeing he's got a full tyre fitting business, I am not surprised by his "findings"
To be fair, I suspect that just like chains, if the wheels are at the limit of the sock's size range, then you may find it more difficult to fit them. We've got the Michelin EasyGrips for our runabout 2nd car and I notice these fit a range of 205-225mm tread and 16"-17" wheels.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
LaForet ;-QUOTE 'if you are going to drive to/through Germany, Austria or N.Italy, you must have winter tyres'
Not sure that is correct. Residents have to have winter tyres fitted by law at certain times, but I don't think it applies to visitors?
I'm always open to learning something new so if true, I'd like to see the relevant regs.
For Austria I believe you are correct (legally visitors only need M&S) however ....
- the police can stop you continuing your journey if your car is not seen as fit for the winter conditions.
- the chance of an accident is much greater as the braking distances and the roadholding characteristics of summer tyres doesn't come close to winter tyres
- In the event of a winter crash the car with summer tyres on will almost certainly be assigned fault.
Having driven with winter tyres for 17 years there's no way I'd risk driving on summers in the winter, just saving a few hundred quid but putting myself and others on the road at a much greater risk just isn't worth it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The big problem of course is that the Venn diagram of summer tyres with any additional trick misses big gaps that are only filled with winter tyres.
As LaF suggests above, if it’s a one off and you don’t do big miles in the UK, well, fair enough. But if I was still a 50k a year road warrior in the northern Uk, I’d be insisting my company coughed up for winter tyres these days.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@under_a_new_name: Perhaps you were thinking of a chart something like this ...
which shows warm & dry (left) through to snow & ice (right) and notionally what types of tyre are best across what ranges.
And yes, @Old_Man_of_Lech I'm not necessarily saying winters are mandatory, just as mentioned that the consensus seems to be that in a serious winter accident, if you're the only car with summer tyres on then you're in a weak position in terms of a valid insurance claim and legally.
I understand the cost/risk/benefit judgement re winter tyres is tricky in the UK, but for me, using the car to go to the Alps every year helps swing it in favour of winters. I felt that if I can afford to take the family skiing each year, then I can afford the switch-over cost of winters (as the capital cost is offset by unused summers).
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Well, there was no way i could have got my car into the garage without chains (had three runs at it before giving up). Was -7 and very snowy so I was glad I'd practised and got them on before my bare hands froze.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@LaForet makes the valid point that the only marginal cost of winter tyres is the changeover cost.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
If you have storage space and get some cheap spare wheels to fit your winters on and do the changeover yourself the marginal cost is really very small. In fact if you buy wheels an inch smaller than the summer tyre combination (provided that specification is recommended) your winter tyres will probably save you money.
Whilst you can argue winter tyres are less good when it's warm/dry and summers less good when it's cold/snowy/icy the big difference is winters work in the warm/dry but summers don't work in the snow/ice.
If anyone is planning to go for only one set buy winters!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I do have a set of spare wheels and just had a new set of winter tyres fitted 3 weeks ago. I always drive out and spend 5 months in the Alps so am fully aware of all the implications of summer V winter tyres etc. My point was simply to clarify that visitors driving through those countries requiring residents to have winters fitted by law, doe's not apply to them, even if it is of course prudent to do so.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@LaForet, The graphic is good, though from my experience is misleading as it does not show the gap in winters and all-seasons.
Each morning I descend from deepish cold snow at 1250m down to tarmac at 400m, and each evening the reverse. (used to be from 1800m at 1am )
There is a point where the snow is wet, but not slushy where the grip is degraded in winters and AS. We have found this with Michelin Alpin, Vredstein Snowtrek, Hankook, Cooper etc.. Nokian seemed to hold up though. ( Across a range of 4x4 vehicles :Subaru, Defender, Freelander, Santa Fe).
On the Fwd with studs we still get good grip here ( and I see that studs are not represented on the graphic - is it Swiss by any chance ? )
When we have been caught out with snow coming early ( or in June ), the socks have performed well in the mixed slush ( also not shown on the graphic), where we struggled with Pirelli Cross Conti (all seasons) on a 4x4.
All that being said it is a pretty good representation despite these omissions.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Old Man Of Lech wrote:
I do have a set of spare wheels and just had a new set of winter tyres fitted 3 weeks ago. I always drive out and spend 5 months in the Alps so am fully aware of all the implications of summer V winter tyres etc. My point was simply to clarify that visitors driving through those countries requiring residents to have winters fitted by law, doe's not apply to them, even if it is of course prudent to do so.
Not true!
Edit: There are issues with enforcement and there could be several situations. If accident happens and your tyres are not suitable for conditions you are (co)responsible for the accident. Depending on conditions your journey could be discontinued too even without accident. So to say that you are OK and the law does not apply to you is not true. Enforcement approach might be different, but laws does apply to visitors (same for other offences etc)
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 1-12-17 10:12; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@WindofChange: Thanks - the graphic is always going to be somewhat off, as there's a lot of variation within each category depending on product. I didn't bother with studs as the target audience is mainly UK drivers who occasionally take the car down to the Alps, so studded would just complicate the discussion. 'All-season' are very tricky to place on the chart - Forum feedback indicates a very wide range of quality and performance between brands, plus there's no 'All-season' standard like for winters.
The chart itself is from a longer 'Guide to Winter Wheels and Tyres' I wrote for the UK BMW 2 Series Owners Forum, with a bias towards RWD performance models like the M135/M140 and M235/M240 which in the UK you can't get in xDrive (AWD) form. You'd think that my 322BHP RWD would be tricky in the snow but actually, with winter tyres and the traction set properly, I've not found it to be a problem, and not yet needed to use those expensive chains.
The Guide is at http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=90035 if anyone is interested. But bear in mind it is aimed at a mainly UK, RWD, 1 and 2 Series audience. The chart is in the next V.3 which should replace the V.2 sometime in the next few weeks.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@LaForet, Thanks for the background.
As somebody who drives on snow for about 120-150 days per year, its really interesting to see other perspectives.
Naturally there is no debate to be had about winter tyres if you live up a mountain.
Anecdotally I found the older RWD Transits drive ok in snow as the weight went further back on the climbs ( mainly Avoriaz). The descents required the ability to manage the throttle, while balancing the opposite lock and oversteer, and being able to smile when you overcooked it Though probably not as much fun as your 332BHP beastie.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I don't know if it's just me, or is it faintly ridiculous that, as northern Europeans a huge amount of people are supplied cars that have tyres fitted that are not all season as a default?
Surely if they wanted "summer" tyres as a preference, it should be those people which have to make specific arrangements to access the performance they wish to pursue.
I completely understand the need for people predominantly living in conditions which definitely require full winter tyre arrangements, and as such run two opposing sets.
But does anyone with a reasonably balanced view of environmental impact suggest that the "general tyre users" should feel comfortable needing "special" tyres to access a limited number holidays a year.
We as a group may be viewed as having certain environmental impacts from our chosen winter pursuits, an overriding sense that we can completely dismiss having two sets of tyres for one car seems to add fuel to the fire.
Yes I do know that a responsible few are quite capable of balancing use across two choices, but suspect that's few and far between.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
These chains look very easy to fit and receive great reviews on Amazon.de
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Though probably not as much fun as your 332BHP beastie.