 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The main difference between some companies is that some have enough cash in the bank to buy the currency they need when bookings are made and others wait until they are paid by the clients an then buy the currency they need to pay the bills. Of course it tends to be larger companies or those with access to funding that can pre-purchase currency at the rate they want/need. I am sure that TUI has enough cash to be able to fund their operation for the foreseeable future. Ha Ha Mind you (no shouldn’t laugh) I booked a XL flight on line just before it went under, so what do I know about anything.
But
Some TO’s are going out of business, but they just haven’t told anyone. We have taken over 3 companies bookings (just to our resort) as the other companies simply can not afford to pay the hotel bills. The clients will still board the same plane, go to the same hotel, ski and the same slopes so they will only notice the difference if they happen to see the name embroidered onto rep’s jacket. Oh, none of the 3 companies we have taken the bookings from have gone bust by the way. They are still trading away on UK based tours.
Reasons ?
Well the extremely basic one is obvious.
Most companies will book hotels around a year in advance – start date to start date. Take next Half Term for an example. The rate back in Feb was around 1-1.40 today it’s 1-.17 (very approx.).
So if you have an average 3* hotel cost around 350euro per week, Lift Pass about 150, ski hire around 40. Not forgetting airport transfers @ say around 50. That’s a very basic package which comes in at (about) 590 to 600 Euros. Last Feb you would have had to change about £430 but now you will need to spend around £510
All these figures are rounded up and down the something like approx ??
Anyway, there you have it an extra £80 in costs. This is not including any fuel supps the airline have hidden as Taxes (eg. One big one has added almost £90 as a Tax increase which is actually a fuel supp.
Most TO’s can only increase the cost of their trips by up to 5%. But this will only help the TO if they are charging more than £1,600 (as this will bring the increase within the budget).
Of course not many people are paying £1,600 per person so where does this extra money come from. Basically nowhere. The TO simply can not afford to run the trip.
I have edited the sums as they were wrong 1st time - ooops
Remember that most TO’s are just normal people trying to earn a living and they really do try and give as good a service as they can. It is really sad when, through no fault of their own, the company they work for is no longer financially viable.
So there is the very basic cause but what is the real cause ?
Simple, around 15 years ago a few idiots in the USA assumed the house prices would always rise and so they leant money to people who couldn’t afford to make the repayments (sub-primes). This worked well until everyone who wanted a house had one and then, due to supply and demand, the house prices started falling. Also, as you have leant money to people who can’t afford to make the repayments and by doing so have inflated the housing market to such an extent that prices are falling, you find that there people don’t make their payments and so you bank can not make it’s repayment to the other banks that leant you the money (to lend to people who can’t afford to repay it) and so the other banks say OK we will take the houses but then they find they are worth less than the amount they leant to your bank, etc, etc, etc the whole pack of cards comes tumbling down.
That is the route cause but the TO’ problems have been in the main part not caused by interbank lending, this one big cause lays right at the door of our own beloved government. The UK government thinks it is better for people to be able to pay their mortgages or to go on holiday, so they opted for the mortgages over the value of the pound, and so put down the rate of interests thus reducing (once the banks pass on the reductions ??) peoples monthly mortgages payments. Of course this also had the effect of making the UK economy less favourable for investments and so people (banks and pension funds) starts selling the pound and buy other currencies, as they can get a higher rate of return on government bonds anywhere outside the UK. Again, due to supply and demand the “cost” of a pound has fallen against other currencies.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 16-11-08 20:08; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Wayne wrote: |
So there is the very basic cause but what is the real cause ?
Simple, around 15 years ago a few idiots in the USA assumed the house prices would always rise and so they leant money to people who couldn’t afford to make the repayments (sub-primes). |
I don't see any great difference to what happened in the UK - indeed, I believe our level of personal indebtedness is greater. But we've done this to death on the various Après financial threads.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Wayne wrote: |
So there is the very basic cause but what is the real cause ?
Simple, around 15 years ago a few idiots in the USA assumed the house prices would always rise and so they leant money to people who couldn’t afford to make the repayments (sub-primes). |
I don't see any great difference to what happened in the UK - indeed, I believe our level of personal indebtedness is greater. But we've done this to death on the various Après financial threads. |
Yes, but thanks wayne for the view 'from the TO' as I found that quite interesting and informative. I guess I hadn't done the maths myself to see how much a shift from 1.6 to 1.2 is going to impact on the TO's costings - although it's already hurting with the costs of the lift pass!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I don't see any great difference to what happened in the UK - indeed, I believe our level of personal indebtedness is greater. |
But the scale of the UK is not big enough to start the ripple effect now going.
A mate of mine runs a small ski company in which he sells the trips in pounds and pays the bills in Euros. He is in the sh*t and the stupid thing is that he is fully booked. How mad is this.
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Yes, it was a good post. Sorry to pick up on just one aspect. 
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Wayne, Thanks, the figures look quite frightening 
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 It's not all bad. The snow has started falling and there is only 11 days left till I put on my skis and go headbutting the floor again
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I did not know TUI had container shipping interests. This is a worry for my 2 trips booked with them as I hear container traffic has taken a nose dive. Reassurances please. 
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Guys and Gals, there is no rumours of TUI going bust.
But keep talking like this and it will have an effect. You have to remember that the TUI you are looking at is TUI AG the German company which owns 51% of TUI Travel PLC, Former First Choice shareholders hold the other 49%, which is a UK listed company and one of the best performing leisure shares at the moment.
TUI Travel is the biggest travel company in Europe, a third bigger than Thomas Cook (by market cap). Peter Long is the CEO and is well respected in the city as a shrewd cost cutter when needed.
So don't worry about TUI (thomsonski, first choice ski and Cystal) PLEASE !!
PS I work for the airline thats why I know !
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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2planks, welcome to snowHeads 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's like enquiring if there might be a run on the pound,
causing people to worry that there might be a run on the pound,
causing people to worry about people needlessly worrying,
causing people to make authoritative statements that although there is a theoretical risk it is highly remote,
....,
causing there to be a run on the pound.
PANIC! 
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| crosbie wrote: |
It's like enquiring if there might be a run on the pound,
causing people to worry that there might be a run on the pound,
causing people to worry about people needlessly worrying,
causing people to make authoritative statements that although there is a theoretical risk it is highly remote,
....,
causing there to be a run on the pound.
PANIC! |
It's not actually because most people on this site are intelligent enough to have a debate and take actions for themselves, plus probably less than 50% of the readership use TO's anyway
it's not like it's on the front page of the redtops - thus driving the lemmings over the cliff...
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You know it makes sense.
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bertie bassett, 'twas tongue in cheek.
If I observe that devastating hurricanes can sweep across Florida having developed from butterflies flapping their wings in the Amazonian rain forest, that doesn't necessarily indicate that I think all butterflies should be exterminated. I think they should fly freely.
Anyway, TUI is a silly name. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| crosbie wrote: |
It's like enquiring if there might be a run on the pound,
causing people to worry that there might be a run on the pound,
causing people to worry about people needlessly worrying,
causing people to make authoritative statements that although there is a theoretical risk it is highly remote,
....,
causing there to be a run on the pound.
PANIC! |
Good fundementals would resist a run on the pound but if you destroy your manufacturing base, borrow billions and reduce interest rates to increase spending putting spin on the situation is bubble that can't keep a currency up. I am less confident about Gordons handling of the economy than TUI management. I remember news snippits about them shedding 4000 jobs in europe in 2007 to counter falling profits. I have just read they are to sell off their shipping arm and have reduced UK summer holiday capacity by 16% - so they seem to have their fingers on the pulse and hopefully they will be OK . There tends to be a bias against TOs on this site but TUI have served me well in the past.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Had a butchers at the Crystal website this morning and my God, they have some seriously cheap deals; weeks in Hotels in places like Tignes through December are £149!!!
I think wintersports are like any 'specialist' pasttime in that we'll do whatever we can to go.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Specialman, yes, but what matters is the final price that a mature couple would pay per person with their own ski equipment, not the headline price designed for 4 skint and grungy lads who don't mind kipping on the carpet so that at least three of them can squeeze into the queen bed without worrying about turning into one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| crosbie wrote: |
| Specialman, yes, but what matters is the final price that a mature couple would pay per person with their own ski equipment, not the headline price designed for 4 skint and grungy lads who don't mind kipping on the carpet so that at least three of them can squeeze into the queen bed without worrying about turning into one. |
Unless of course you are that group of "4 skint and grungy lads" 
In my case, what matters is the final price for a mature single, rather than couple.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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2planks, I don't think TUI will fold, either. Thanks to the discussion on the thread, and the odd search is has triggered, I get the impression that TUI is well run, and has cut down winter-holiday capacity to save it embarrassment. If I book a TO holiday in the coming season, it will be with them. Since starting this thread, though, the likely plan is to go DIY for one holiday, and have two sH bashes. (I don't count admin as a TO, much too shambolic  ).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alex_heney, I have a hunch that singles could more easily estimate a price given a couple price than a max occ. price. A max occ price is just not useful and leaves you with contempt for the TO when they waste your time with low prices that turn out to be designed for sardines or newbie punters who've never booked a trip before.
It's almost impossible to filter or sort package prices on a couple occupancy basis. 
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crosbie, you cut your cloth accordingly I suppose. Yep, the stated prices have to be worked out so you don't get caught out by supplements but it has to be said that there are more early season deals than I remember seeing last year. It's a consumer's market for definite.....
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Specialman, yup. Hopefully there'll be some good prices. Trouble is, will the resorts halve their lift pass, restaurant and beer prices?
I've wondered if the dearth of last minute bargains in past years is more due to TO's better JIT logistics matching packages with punters.
I can remember about 6 or 7 years ago enjoying a £99pp s/c package including flight and transfer for a couple in a 'sleeps 5' apartment. And that was in the days when the TO reps were relied upon to collar you for carriage in the check-in queues (and could be avoided).
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| crosbie wrote: |
| It's almost impossible to filter or sort package prices on a couple occupancy basis. |
Why ?
From an evil TO's point of view (except in ski forums) the vast majority of people who go skiing are in couples and they go with TO's for the week(s) holiday on the ski slopes - even larger groups tend to consist of couples (MM FF MF) so that's how we price the packages. At certain times of the year this alters to include accompanying kids.
Like it or not the market is there for the majority. Not saying that's how it should be, just that's how it is
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, I'm so glad you agree. I thought I was the only one.
However, when I say 'couple based pricing', I mean based on couples that prefer a room to themselves.
I've pretty much given up using online TO's websites and places like Iglu and ifyouski because nearly all their prices are max/sardine occupancy. The only time they're one-couple-per-room based is at the high end for posh hotels, when no-one would dare suggest that a large twin room could be reclassified as a quad room for a swinging and non-snoring couple in each bed.
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Maybe I'm not up on the world on on-line only TO's but I personally don't know of any hotels that will accommodate 2 couples, that don't know each other, in the same room unless they have specifically asked for this – I think there must be a website somewhere for couples like this ???
A lot of online TO's are not really TO's but just booking agents although most of the TO's do have an online setup. It's best to try and see the difference.
Some of this is like preferring to make your own bread. Everyone knows you "can", and you "may" even get it slightly cheaper than at the supermarket. Now I know there are many people who will see this slight saving as a good reason to do it and others who will convince themselves the their homemade break taste better. But isn't a lot of this down to simply wanting to do your own thing. There is nothing wrong with this.
It's the same with ski holidays. The money you save, the freedom you have to book your own ski hire from the shop you choose, the general feeling of doing it yourself, it’s all good. But, whilst there is a lot to be said for all these things, still the vast majority of people will be just as happy knowing that someone is doing the work for them. The coach will collect them from the airport, the room will be there when they arrive, the ski hire shop is expecting them, etc, etc. Of course there are times when these things go wrong (and these instances are normally sited as a good reason not to use a TO) but when compared the millions of times they don't, is it really worth all the bother for that small saving and the feeling of "I don't need a TO's".
I honestly don’t know. If people prefer to arrange their own trips that’s fine with me. If they (like the vast majority of people) prefer to use a TO that’s also OK.
There are still some people who buy kits to make a computer. Why ? who knows ? I don’t, but if that’s what they prefer, fine by me but most people still go to a shop. Although you wouldn't think so if you go to build-your-own-laptop-forum.com.uk.nett.org.something
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wayne, I agree, I don't know any hotels like that either, but there are still TOs happy to price twin rooms based on quad occupancy if they can get away with it. You ought to check out their brochures sometime.
I'd love to use a TO or booking agent if they wouldn't price things based on sardine occupancy.
I only do it myself because it takes less time to get a final price, i.e. I don't spend hours of trial and error finding the one package of £400 that is still close to £400 after you say you're just a couple rather than parents with two kids, or two couples who quite like the idea of sharing a room. Usually, the package priced at 'from £400pp' ends up being £900pp - and you wonder if anyone ever does cram in to get the low price....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I'd love to use a TO or booking agent if they wouldn't price things based on sardine occupancy.
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Property rental is priced per bed. Ergo, price of holidays is based on people occupying said beds. And if they're selling you quad occupancy it's because there are four beds in the room, ie it is a quad and not a twin. Not sure quite where your objection is. 
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Property rental is priced per bed. |
Not normally. Not sure about France or other areas but in Italy rooms are priced on reducing occupancy. The TO will make more on 4 in a room but the hotels don't. The best option for a hotel is a triple.
Worse case scenario from a hotel point of view is a quad (with 4 people in). But, as you say, the best option from a TO's view is a quad.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, I was referring to chalets etc rather than third party hotels.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Wayne, I was referring to chalets etc rather than third party hotels. |
Soory - I have never been in a chalet except on ski training courses so you must be right. I just paid what they asked for.
| crosbie wrote: |
| I'd love to use a TO or booking agent if they wouldn't price things based on sardine occupancy. |
There are TO's that don;t ya know
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I just paid what they asked for.
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This bloke won't haggle!
What d'you mean, won't haggle?
......................... etc etc. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Wayne wrote: |
| Of course there are times when these things go wrong (and these instances are normally sited as a good reason not to use a TO) but when compared the millions of times they don't, is it really worth all the bother for that small saving and the feeling of "I don't need a TO's". |
For me part of the fun is the challenge of arranging it yourself whether in winter or in summer! The need to know the bed/rental shop etc is there is low in my book as there's always an alternative even if that's putting on all your ski kit and kipping in the motor in the board bag. Can have it's funny moments though - having dragged 6 friends to cagliari to stay in a villa I found off some Italian guy on the internet they were not amused when we turned up and it seemed like a different family of italians were in residence any romping noisly around the place. Still it all sorted itself within a couple of hours and we had a nice meal at the owner's local restaurant and interesting couple of hours chatting to him about life in the city.
I tend to avoid TO's as a preference unless very late 'steal deal' or big group or someone-else organising, largely because I've felt my holiday has been compromised by TO's in some way or other - waiting 2 hours in a car park in Moutiers when you could be on the hill. Getting your lift passes delivered at 10:30 on the sunday, having been 'in resort' since 12 noon on Saturday. Getting portions of food fit for a squirrel when you've paid for a catered chalet. This is across several TO's at different price points in different resorts, and I'm sure I can find other examples, so my dis-satisfaction rating is high. I'm also not convinced that some hung-over 18 year old kid is going to know what to do if the poopoo really hits the fan. I'd prefer to be able to take/make my own decisions than listen/take their advice...but that's what happens when you get middle aged
Oh and as 75% of my last 4 trips have been 2/5/5 days respectively, they don't dovetail nicely into the 7 day segments...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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LoL your stuff brings to mind me and my mate getting to geneva the same night as the pilot strike a few years (the same day the motor show started). took us a while to get some where to kip. So I do the same as you, but for work I do this. No problems. Takes all sorts.
Oh yeah...we give the pases out on the bus from the airport
| bertie bassett wrote: |
| but that's what happens when you get middle aged |
Are you 75 ?? I read that soon we will all be going well until 150 OMG
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So, will we see TO's start to price their holidays in Euros in future!
There's already businesses around these parts who are accepting Euros on parity with the £. Wonder are they banking them or sticking them under the floorboards for when the £ really crashes and burns!
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FAQ
