 Poster: A snowHead
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mrtoastie, DG lives!!!
Anyway, who better than the great man himself to show you his wares. If you enter David Goldsmith in the 'author' box of forum search all will be revealed. Or you could just try terms and conditions in keywords. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DG is David Goldsmith, a Snowhead with many posts on this site and a man with definite views regarding avalanches, the SCGB etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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brian, yes, very true.
Since the year it supposedly opened I've yet to lookat the Scottish snow situation and see that the Braveheart chair is open.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, unbelieveably, I have to go do some work! Hope you're still kicking when I get back. It's a jungle out there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowball, yes, the minimum standard for getting on the Reps' course is now Purple. Not all Reps are brilliant skiers or highly experienced - but those who do go off piste (and get the more "extreme" resorts) are pretty damned good IME.
DB, Bode Swiller, The reason the SCGB is not allowed into St Anton is political - the head of the Ski School is also head of the Tourist Board - and will not allow any organisation in who does not agree to hire people from the Ski School for half their time there. AFAIK Snoworks is the only organisation that is not based in St Anton that is allowed to offer their own services on the hill there, and they have to use Guides from the Ski School. AFAIK (and I spent some time talking with the last guy who was a Rep in St Anton, who spent a lot of time trying to negotiate to stay there), it was nothing to do with any accident, but largely in response to the resort also banning TO ski-hosts.
Skiing off-piste is an activity involving risk. Taking a qualified guide does not eliminate that risk. Last year skiing down from MonteRosa into Zermatt, skiing after the guide in the area he had stipulated, I had to jump over a small crevasse opening in my path that was not visible from above. We then got the remainder of the group to ski down avoiding that opening. The same day a snowboarder died on the neighbouring glacier while under supervision of her guide. These are the risks inherent in our sport. If you don't want to take those risks then don't do it. And there is plenty of terrain I'd ski unguided that an ISIA would not be allowed to teach on (and remember that ISIA is significantly less qualified than ISTDs - who still can't take groups off-piste on glaciers), and I've skied with plenty who've had more experince and been more careful with terrain than your typical ISIA.
cathy, gives a pretty fair description of what is also my experience, as I posted on the first page of this thread. They do have to avoid "teaching" to the extent that they are frequently prevented from making the helpful comments that an ordinary "ski-mate" would make. The climate of fear and litigation developing over all this is really going to kill the spirit of learning by shared experience and discovery. How many times have we heard the view that the best way of learning something is to try to explain it to someone else?
I agree with just about every word Arno and davidof have written on this thead. I do though agree that the SCGB is in a grey area - particularly due to the level of marketing spin they put in some of their published statements. The statement they read at the beginning of the day is much better though - and I wish the Club would stick closer to that with their material for the general public. They have had training, but are clearly not as trained as a UIAGM or ISTD, but are not pretending to be. This is exactly what is read out at the beginning of the day. If "Highly trained" is being used publically, I'd agree it is over-egging the pudding.
This is all clearly in response to the Verbier accident. No-one appears to know the details of this though, so we cannot make any judgement as to whether the Club is overreacting, whether the Rep was at fault, whether it was just an unfortunate accident, or whether the Club is having to respond to some malicious/unreasonable responses from insurance companies/personnel. I hope general members will be brought up to speed - although from past history that would seem unlikely - but it would be scandalous if Reps are not informed of the details. If you don't know what happened you can't take steps to prevent a repetition.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 23-10-07 14:29; edited 1 time in total
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Bode Swiller, see you when you get back - I am supposed to be working too. Careful out there - let's hope your risk of a nasty accident is less that 0.00001% .
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Having skied with snowball a couple of times, I'd say his views are worth listening to. (Even though we don't always agree on the safety of a line - remember St Anton this spring?)
I find it sad that a court may take the unofficial leader of a group to court, if the group was skiing offpiste and there was an accident. Offpiste skiing is potentially dangerous and people who engage in it should do so knowingly. (If, however, the group caused an avalanche and someone else was injured or died, the situation may be different).
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achilles, your humour is about as good as your maths.
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brian
brian
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horizon - well it turned out your route was perfectly safe but I think it is a good general principle that you don't just head out a long way from the piste on a previously trackless route that you don't know and don't know where it goes - just because you see a guide go off down it with a couple of clients. I would have gone with you and taken the risk if the others hadn't been there , but if anyone in a group isn't happy then I reckon you shouldn't do it (and some of them weren't happy). Also, because I organise these holidays (even though I'm just a friend with friends) I feel I am a bit more responsible.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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brian, it is the best slope in the resort but I've never skied it right down because of the need to get back round the corner. (Mind you the top bit is the best anyway and the lift doesn't serve that).
PS if the slope is in that sort of condition (or better) next season I'd be grateful if someone could tell me and I'll try to come up and ski it - or as much of it as one can without a long walk out. More so if the lift is working!
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brian
brian
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snowball, exactly. Although it makes the interesting stuff one coire round doable without a long walk out, extreme left of this map. I've never yet managed to get a chance to ski them.
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I did one of them back on my first visit, the year Nevis Range opened - I seem to remember a jump was involved. A friend of mine did it the year before last and startled some climbers who were trying to climb it !!
Did Braveheart run at all last season? Does Rob Roy ever work, or the Great Glen chair?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 23-10-07 15:42; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN has got it about right. We skied together, and a few other contributors here, in Le Grave last year and I recall having to jump a big hole which was in the run-out of the route we were on. I don't know why the others didn't see it but it scared the poo out of me... it wasn't a minute hop either...cue fishing tales here, but you get the jist.
I can't blame the guide for leading me down there, you have to make some calls yourself and be able to look after yourself when things go a bit off-track
Anyway, I think the whole mountain has risks and it can catch out anyone anytime and expertise and experience may make a differnce on one day and not the next. You can legislate or offset these risks to various degrees but you have to take some personal responsibility. A guide is a good step but no garuantee in itself, they get killed as well.
The best you can do is try and reduce the problems as much as possible and hope you remain in credit on the lucky side.
Keep a look-out for your buddies and try and keep the mistake count down and hope they can do the same for you.
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brian
brian
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snowball, I'll try and keep you appraised of conditions, in fact I'll try and join you if possible. Great Glen and Rob Roy - haven't seen them running for a while but it is a popular beginners' area if they have snow low down.
I don't think Braveheart has run either of the last 2 seasons.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Are you restricted to week-ends?
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brian
brian
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snowball, no, midweek is preferable and I like to leave it late to get the best conditions, but I'm probably restricted to a day trip.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
well, I seem to have created quite a negative impression, which is a shame.
there certainly isn't psychological profiling and i don't quite know where you got that idea from - must have been an unfortunate choice of words on my part. the only time i have heard of someone getting a definite "black mark" against their name was where they persistently ignored the instructions of a UIAGM guide and therefore put the rest of the group at risk. the references are intended to benefit everyone - they hopefully ensure that everyone is of a similar standard and therefore no-one gets left behind or holds the rest of the group up. i'd expect anyone, qualified or not, to take steps along these lines if they were putting together a group of people they hadn't met before.
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I refer you to your earlier post
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They have leaders who may or may not be qualified!!!
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The mere fact that someone has been given a "black mark", and that this would have been recorded against their name by a group of people who may or not be qualified to make that judgement, is not good IMV.
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if you read my post, you will see that the whole idea of member-led tours is that decisions are made collectively - you can have as much or as little input as you like
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Yes, I read your post. I also read this post. One of yours as well,
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In order to get on a tour, you need to apply giving references so that leaders can check out applicants' real ability (rather than just go on how good they say they are). It's up to the leader to decide whether s/he wants to take on a marginal applicant.
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Which when taken together with this statement....
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when it comes down to it, the ESC is a club. it is actually a very open club - anyone can join - but it's not going to be for everyone. clearly you don't feel you'd benefit from joining and that's fine - no need to be so rude about it though |
I believe that the Eagle Ski club would be quite happy for anyone to contribute to their club, however, the chances of a new member being able to "prove" their competence to the old guard, and "be allowed to join a tour" would be pretty slim, thus keeping the coppers filled and the riff raff outside.
Oddly enough I did look at ESC site about a year ago, it looked unfriendly, secretive and cliquey.
Interesting that you feel my comments are rude, which aspects in particular? Could you simply be feeling a little defensive?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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brian, Sounds like we would want to ski the same things and week days are usually OK for me. Obviously to come up from London I'd want to ski at least 2 days - perhaps one at Nevis and one at Glencoe? I could bring skins if it would open up other interesting routes - but I'm not a big fan of touring in general. Of course that would require someone with a lot of local knowledge...
I wonder if Nadenoodlee might join me/us or some other snowhead.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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As you may know the ski club also gives badges, after a formal test, as well as informal grades given by all reps. However there are only 3 levels for badges and the top one has, in effect, been dropped due to the lack of occasions that 2 gold judges were together when someone wanted to take the test. (The test, in 4 sections, took, in effect, 3 half days plus a race - for which something such as the standardised French Fleche races was usually used, rather than setting up an ad hoc course).
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 23-10-07 16:54; edited 1 time in total
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brian
brian
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snowball, ideally we could fit it around kiwi1's demo day at Nevis (see events section) which is Friday/Sat 21st/22nd March. I assume there will be some other  s around then. However, if we get the conditions in December or January and we're free I think we should go for it. Scottish skiing is only ever a couple of days of rain away from a washout. II has a Nevis season ticket so might be around.
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Yes, I was involved with mooting the idea of the Snowheads Scottish (trip which was later linked with that) but unfortunately I shall be inEngelberg - getting back on the 23rd. I think a weekday event dependent on the timing of good snow would be better for me.
I'll rely on you to let me know when it looks good (a day or two notice that a snowstorm is expected would make it more likely I could come than if I just heard "ITS GOOD NOW - come up today".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This making 3 pages a day! Awesome.
Barryvox Pulse only 389,00€
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brian
brian
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snowball, ok. Should be able to manage a couple of days notice 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, what, you're making three pages of posts a day? I wondered how you got such a high post count!
brian, fine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jonesj71 wrote: |
I believe that the Eagle Ski club would be quite happy for anyone to contribute to their club, however, the chances of a new member being able to "prove" their competence to the old guard, and "be allowed to join a tour" would be pretty slim, thus keeping the coppers filled and the riff raff outside.
Oddly enough I did look at ESC site about a year ago, it looked unfriendly, secretive and cliquey.
Interesting that you feel my comments are rude, which aspects in particular? Could you simply be feeling a little defensive? |
Well I can happily say you are dead wrong on that point and the club positively encourages new members. It costs all of £18 to join. It has grants which help members pay for trips with an educational element (eg a first aid or avalanche awareness course). It has also run (with fully qualified UIAGM guides) deeply discounted training weeks for young members.
It has clearly rubbed you up the wrong way and that is a shame. I don't wish to come across as defensive and I don't think I have anything to be defensive about. I posted about the Eagles' practices in response to davidof expressing an interest in this and some of what I have posted does not seem to have gone down with you.
What do I think is rude? You have labelled the leaders are "unqualified". Have you actually met any of these leaders? Are you confident to find your own way in the backcountry? If you can answer yes to both questions, I would say your view on leaders is informed and reasonable. If not, perhaps you should take the trouble to inform yourself before making such allegations. Are you qualified to call me and other leaders unqualified? My comment about how they may or may not be qualified was meant to be lighthearted and referred to formal qualifications like UIAGM or ISIA - sorry if you took more seriously than that.
You also seem keen to make rather facile points such as the one about "psychological profiling." I assume this was a reference to the hope that everyone gets on on a trip. That's all it is and most of the time everyone shares a love of skiing and the mountains and it's all good.
You seem to have a problem with the idea that a leader might want to check out peoples' ability before letting them on a tour. Do you think it would be safer not to? Have you ever been on a ski tour with someone who is clearly not up to it? If you are going from hut to hut, there are times when you simply have to get through a passage by a particular time or it starts to get dangerous. It's better to know that someone isn't up to it before they sign up than when you're under a loaded slope late in the day which you'd hoped to have been past 3 hours earlier.
The "black mark", if I remember correctly, was given at the instance of the UIAGM guide leading that particular tour. What's the club supposed to do when it gets feedback like that? Sweep it under the carpet in case someones' feelings are hurt?
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Jonny Jones, I think you find it hard to understand what I wrote. I do not know of any ski club reps that are given any pay. They only get a token amount of money towards there expenses and so I am SURE that the UK tax man would not consider this as pay. I think you need to read what is written more carefully before replying. I do not agree with you that this is a good move by the ski club. I think it will have the opposite effect with many members as a number of people have already pointed out. As a club, they are able in French law to ski with members where they wish, they are not paid employees. To remove the chance of real off piste trips such as the Tour de charvet in Val d'Isere, if this is what is meant, is a big mistake. If people that post here are Ski Club members they should say they are, as i have. Otherwise how do we know when reading there comments.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jasonc wrote: |
| Jonny Jones, I think you find it hard to understand what I wrote. I do not know of any ski club reps that are given any pay. They only get a token amount of money towards there expenses and so I am SURE that the UK tax man would not consider this as pay. |
On another forum I am involved in, there has been debate a similar issue (not to do with skiing, but another activity), and free accommodation can be seen as "payment in kind" hence changing the insurance regulations for the organisation concerned.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Elizabeth B, I think that you will find quite often the ski club accommodation is provided by a third party to the club and not the individual. The club in turn can let who ever they wish use it just as you would invite a friend to use your holiday home at no charge. That is 'not payment in kind', remember this is a club and the reps are volunteers.
I still think that some people here are missing the point. A ski club rep is there to help the ski club members. It is not there job to teach or get more cash for the club. They are just there to give the members a better holiday. They are giving up there holiday time free of charge to do this. Those reps that do go off piste in my experience are very good skiers, with many years of experience. Nothing i have read here has yet made me change my mind. I still think this change of policy is a major mistake and will cost the club members and good skiers in the future.
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Poster: A snowHead
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jasonc, I'm not sure that it makes a difference how it is "dressed up". The fact is, the rep would not get the free accommodation if they were not repping. The situation I have referred to above is also a club, with no paid staff, so I'd be interested to know how it differs. I also wish I knew more about the detail of how the law is applied in situations like this, as it could well affect me in another realm
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Reps don't always make use of the free accommodation; if you saw some of it you wouldn't always call it a benefit...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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a thought - only just occurred to me - perhaps Bode Swiller could tell us if he has ever been involved in giving expert advice to someone taking legal action against the Ski Club?
[accidentally edited this post rather than posting a new one - rolled back to previous version]
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 24-10-07 7:40; edited 3 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm not a SCGB member and have never had any real desire to be. I know this thread has created a lot of noise which is no bad thing as too many threads die too quickly to be interesting. I've always had the understanding that SCGB rep skiing would inevitably be a bit of a compromise, and from what I've seen of reps in resorts I know well would inevitably result in missing out some of the best stuff. I would very definitely say that Eagles and SCGB are nothing like the same types of entity.
To me SCGB has an envelope of commercialisation wrapped round it that if I was a casual punter might lead me to think it was something more than it obviously is. If people can no longer ski"serious" off-piste with a rep will this really work against them except if they have been (deliberately?) blurring the boundaries in their promo literature? Maybe peer-to-peer organisation will be the value added service that reps then perform putting members together in resorts so they can choose to make off-piste excursions together or not as their own judgement takes them.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 23-10-07 23:29; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| To me SCGB has an envelope of commercialisation wrapped round it that if I was a casual punter might lead me to think it was something more than it obviously is. |
You may have something there. A more down to earth (or snow) image would better reflect its administrative abilities, and less Hello! type froth with the PR would do no harm. In fact more emphasis on it being a members' owned group run by a board of its members would be the way I would like to see it go.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Elizabeth B, Unless you say up front what you are comparing the ski club system with and do not only mention another group which we know nothing about, it is totally unfair for you to continue to compare the SCGB system of rep assistance with another unknown one. Please be open or it is not worth engaging in this further. Sorry to be so blunt but all this secrecy gets us nowhere.
I think that archillies and fatbob make good points, maybe this is the time for the ski club to once more understand it is first and formost a CLUB and not a tour company and make sure the members get what they want. More straight talk from the board and the executive. I agree that whilst I totally support the Rep system, some of the PR that has been produced is very misleading and needs to be changed. The details on the Natives site linked in an earlier post is an example and could well cause them further trouble in the near future. This change in policy is going to force the club officials into answering some important questions at the AGM and not skip around this issue.
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| Quote: |
A more down to earth (or snow) image would better reflect its administrative abilities, and less Hello! type froth with the PR would do no harm. In fact more emphasis on it being a members' owned group run by a board of its members would be the way I would like to see it go.
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achilles, I know a fella in North London who would entirely agree with you on that and would express it almost identically. You're not really DG are you?
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Some random thoughts-
By far the best way to avoid dieing in an avalanche is not to get buried in one, if carrying a transceiver makes you even a little bit bolder then its already small benefit (of the third of skiers who get their heads buried in avalanches who live, a third are rescued by their friends with transceivers) is lost .
I have 3 friends who are qualified mountain guides, ones a very good skier, one is good and one is pants (but a very good climber)
I have one friend who is a scgb rep and he is a very good skier and mountaineer.
Skiing is quite dangerous about (accurate stats are hard to come by) 3% claim on insurance for injuries.
In a crowded resort (depending on conditions) I feel much safer off piste than on.
It seems to me that the SCGB were not trying to address a problem regarding safety, competence, or the legality of their activity but rather their ability to get a third party to take on possible liability's.
BTW In Chamonix there seems to be as many skiers off piste as on. I think the days of resorts being able to wash their hands of liability for skiers on lift accessed off piste are numbered.
I am not DG at least I dont think so.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jasonc wrote: |
I still think that some people here are missing the point. A ski club rep is there to help the ski club members. It is not there job to teach or get more cash for the club. |
Do the reps still have targets to recruit 2 members per week while in resort? I know it used to rankle a bit as some reps felt under pressure about this. It doesn't seem to be a normal approach for a pure ski club... more like the Scientologists. (note I have nothing at all against the Scientologists).
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Bode - you might have missed my question -
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| a thought - only just occurred to me - perhaps Bode Swiller could tell us if he has ever been involved in giving expert advice to someone taking legal action against the Ski Club? |
I won't badger you any more if you don't answer - but I suspect I will know the answer.
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FAQ
IIRC, the cover had been as good or better for at least a few weeks before that ...
