 Poster: A snowHead
|
little tiger, your MA was spot on sorry but i dont understand the jibes from or to anyone.. i dont CEM was dissing the video of your skiers ability just making the point that bumps skiing unhinges anyones skiing no matter how talented..
david@mediacopy, have a look at skier 1's second run which i posted, any changes of note?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
skimottaret, Different. A more consistent width of stance, although still evidence of the ski's coming together*, but daylight (fridge light?) between the legs, 'a frame' gone.
*More so on the l/h arc which then leads to a 'bow legged' picture at the start of his r/h arcs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
For a better comparison here is a video of skier 2 making shorter radius turns similar to skier 1's. will their two very different body shapes manifest in different skiing or does that not matter?
Skier 2 SL radius turns |
Doesn't matter. Good skiers should be able to demonstrate both of those methods of turning, and many others, regardless of their body shape. The execution may look different from one another while doing any particular variation, but the skis will be interacting with the snow in the same manner.
In your videos of short turns, the 2 skiers are simply using very different edging skills. Skier 1 is power pushing the tails out to the side, all the way through the turn. Because his skis are weighted right from the start, the result is a turn initiated with an immediate big speed dumping skid, and that skid continuing through the rest of the turn. There's very little use of the sidecut in facilitating the turn.
Skier 2 is doing an unweighted pivot, then feathering onto a cleaner edge to complete the turn. He's using his ski's sidecut more than skier 1. His skid angle is much smaller.
Have skiers 1 and 2 switch turning techniques. That will tell you if the technique each is displaying in the videos is because of choice, or lack of other options.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 3-05-10 2:08; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| CEM wrote: |
its not that he can't ski bumps... just can't ski and the bumps prove it  |
CEM, I'm sure you must understand the very high level skill it takes to ski arc to arc GS turns through a respectable mogul field. Most people wouldn't even think of attempting it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
By the way,skimottaret, it just dawned on me; seeing this is a "practice" MA thread, would you rather I hold off from posting in it? If you're questions are meant to be guided discovery initiatives, I don't want to grab the wheel on you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
FastMan, no not at all please comment as your analysis is always bang on, but perhaps let things develop a bit before handing out the answers to the test  , it was meant as you rightly mention a self help practice thread for instrucotrs and some guided discovery would help. i personally dont want to come across as a sanctimonious know it all and was hoping to learn a bit as well!! . i would like to keep this thread active and am planning on posting various skiers to get our brain cells working over the summer.
Skier 1's first run was very bad for him, but that isnt the point, we all have bad runs but for me it is useful to see if you can spot flaws in reasonably talented skiers and importantly offer up suggestions on improvement. I have been lucky in that i work with some good kids and at first i honestly couldnt see much wrong in their skiing but over time my eye has gotten better and minor things now shout out at me.
| Quote: |
Have skiers 1 and 2 switch turning techniques. That will tell you if the technique each is displaying in the videos is because of choice, or lack of other options. |
good idea! i will have a go at some checky shorts tonight!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Really wish I had some footage from this season - decent camcorder is high on the shopping list.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DaveC, whatever you do dont get one with .MTS file output, i did and regret it complete pain to use with computers...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
WTF
it was a coment made about bumps in general and the number of people whinging that they cant't ski them...absolutly nothing to do with any of the videos of any of the skiers on here...... would people stop getting there knickers in a twist
yet another reason less and less people even bother to post
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Come off it Colin, calm down. You made a comment which could only be related to anything in this thread as criticism of what are clearly superb skiers - or was otherwise completely inexplicable. If that post gets criticised (and I had no idea what you were referring to either - unless you were just trying to have a snipe) then there really is no need to get all huffy about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I got a bit of footage I may post up from seasons past. Is YouTube the best hosting choice ?
skimottaret, your using something else ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
GrahamN, not getting all huffy about anything
simply making a point which was the comment was feck all to do with the videos get over it
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| CEM wrote: |
WTF
it was a coment made about bumps in general and the number of people whinging that they cant't ski them...absolutly nothing to do with any of the videos of any of the skiers on here...... would people stop getting there knickers in a twist
yet another reason less and less people even bother to post |
OK, CEM, I think here in this post we've discovered the origin of the misunderstanding. Little Tiger was the only one speaking about bumps, and it was in the context of how two of her past instructors skied them. There was no whining going on about not being able to ski them, she was simply describing the differing styles of those two guys. Explains why some where confused, and others misinterpreted your comment. Such shat happens,,, no need for anyone to become upset and refrain from posting. Water off a ducks butt. Let's move on with this excellent thread.
Something else I want to say as I sit in the wings for a bit. Skimottaret, don't misinterpret my critique of skier 1 as a judgement of good/bad. Good/bad evaluations would have to be made based on what very specific turn types were intended, and how close to the intention the end product was. I have no idea of what turns either skier was attempting to execute, I simply was describing what they were actually doing. For all I know they were executing their goals perfectly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
FastMan,
| Quote: |
| I have no idea of what turns either skier was attempting to execute, I simply was describing what they were actually doing. For all I no they were executing there goal perfectly. |
Yep, one of the pitfalls of video analysis without knowing the context of the run. The danger is that it's easy to become focused on style rather than outcome and if you don't know the intended outcome, it's pretty hard to suggest how they might change their performance to 'improve' other than in the general sense.
That said, Scott's approach of comparing skiers & runs makes good sense as 'practice', as does highlighting technical issues that could be holding back performance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
FastMan, no worries on skier 1, i just mentioned that he had a poor run as a few of us have seen him ski in the flesh and he is a lot better than that clip highlights, i didnt want to come across picking on him but rather picked a clip that had some fairly obvious flaws in a high level skier....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
skimottaret, who was skier one...pm if you like ...i think i know and if it is who i think it is i would expect that that was a pretty bad run in his terms
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Here is skier 3 i have footage of him doing Slalom and GS radius turns, lets start with the shorts. He is about 18, good athlete with a gymnastics background, an ex junior racer and competed on both artificial and snow surfaces... waddya see
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
CEM, probably who you think it is and as i mentioned it was a bad run but illuminating as far as MA goes.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
skimottaret, Funny, my first impression was that he was 'back' and that got me thinking about his boots. Sure enough when you step through the footage the tips of the skis are often clear of of the snow at the transition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| CEM wrote: |
| from an equipment point of view, skier 1 COM seems to be dropped a bit back, possibly down to either binding delta being too great or boot set up.... adding a 2-3mm shim under the toe of the boot may allow presurisation of the whole ski |
david could be....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Skier 3
Line is either lazy or poor. I suspect the former. It's the absolute minimum deviation needed to control speed. It's not a run that's aimed at improving performance.
He's the tails of his skis all the time - he's using back half of the ski to turn by rolling the skis on edge. It looks to me as if he's initiating by subtley heal pushing, rather than applying pressure to the tongue of the boot and, hence, the tip of the ski.
Query whether the boots are too stiff.
The skier is A framing. Almost as much as I do.
The whole body picture is way too static. Although, at 18, it's possibly more laziness than ability.
Flexed too much at the hips. Back is hollowed. Chin is stuck out. Bum stuck out.
What little extension/flexion there is is vertically up/down, rather than moving down the hill.
Poor upper / lower body separation and little angulation. Personally, I'd class the turns as banked (inclined's evil twin).
Lazy hand carriage. It looks like the duty of carrying the poles is the only thing that's stopping him from putting his hands in his pockets. Hands are dropping to inside of turns.
Shoulders are dropping into the turn.
The whole thing smacks of laziness (skiing terrain well within ability and being bored with what they've been tasked with), rather than necessarily someone who's not a good skier.
Personally, I'd sack the coach
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| CEM wrote: |
| from an equipment point of view, skier 1 COM seems to be dropped a bit back, possibly down to either binding delta being too great or boot set up.... adding a 2-3mm shim under the toe of the boot may allow presurisation of the whole ski |
david could be.... |
Or he could just be back... seems like people are very quick to point the blame at the equipment for something that can be changed stance wise? I know CEM says "possibly", but it seems like something you'd have to try and address in technique and if that fails then look at gear?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| The skier is A framing. Almost as much as I do. |
Not even close
I'd agree with a reasonable amount of that - but I think a fair bit of that is symptom rather than cause. Yes, this skier is clearly skiing well within their comfort zone, and rather going through the motions - probably a "don't care, I'm just heading down to the bar" run. Don't really agree about the heel push until about turn 7 or 8, when he's starting to bleed off speed. Edges are engaged pretty well, and ankles seem to be doing a fair job laterally - and I'm not that convinced that there's much of an A-frame problem.
First problem that struck me was that most movements are originating from the shoulders rather than from below the waist - something I often see from pretty good but not quite top rank junior skiers (i.e. those much faster than me  ) - don't know why. The turns are all initiated with a shoulder twist and inward lean - grossly overdone anticipation and no angulation as the turn builds up. The turns are all largely with a lot of weight on the inside ski as well, tying in with the inward bank and twist - unfortunately a classic dry-slope habit . Stabilise the torso position, by allowing angulation at the hips and I feel a lot of the faults will clear up. That would also allow the hips to move into the turn and get a stronger turn effect without the upper body rotation.
The second thing that struck me was a strong asymmetry in body position - right hand held much lower than left associated with a right shoulder drop. I wondered whether that was just camera angle, but following that a bit closer it looks also to me that the left leg is also generally a bit straighter than the right - or rather the right knee always stays over-flexed. Look particularly at turns 1 and 3 - straightish left leg, whereas 2 and 4 have a very flexed right knee at the apex. The failure of the right leg to extend also contributes to the hips dropping back - there is no extension and forward projection from the right side when they should be driving into the beginning of the left hand turn. Strengthen that, weight will get more onto the outside ski - and the left side will probably also strengthen up as well. Sort that out and the general backward balance, protruding bum and hollow back will fall into place afterwards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| DaveC wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| CEM wrote: |
| from an equipment point of view, skier 1 COM seems to be dropped a bit back, possibly down to either binding delta being too great or boot set up.... adding a 2-3mm shim under the toe of the boot may allow presurisation of the whole ski |
david could be.... |
Or he could just be back... seems like people are very quick to point the blame at the equipment for something that can be changed stance wise? I know CEM says "possibly", but it seems like something you'd have to try and address in technique and if that fails then look at gear? |
if you hold a golf club and hit the ball 150 yards, give the same club to tiger (when he could play) and he may hit the ball 300 yards with the same club...that is about technique and how you hold the club
a ski boot holds you, you do not have a choice what position it puts you into in fact skiing is one of the few sports where equipment should take a good proportion of the blame
i know the skier concerned (wasn't sure if it was him at first but it has been confirmed) i also know exactly what boots he is skiing in (not ones that he now has) and thatthe angles in the boots are a little aggressive for him
the reason i said possibly is that i was unsure if it was who i thought it was.... i can now quite categorically say a 2-3mm toe lift will give him a much better starting position
being in the back seat is normally a compensation for something, if you are being tipped too far forward you compensate by sitting back, it doesn't just happen for no reason...sure.... fear, technique, conditions can all play a part but knowing the level of the skier concerned then i would be fairly confident that equipment is a big part of the problem
the balance point for a skier front to back only has a window of 3-4mm for them to be stacked perfectly onto their boots to suit the individual, this is probably the reason why we see so many people sit back as rental boots and skis are not set up to help (high binding deltas on bindigns are the biggest culprits) when fundimental techniques are correct then prehaps, maybe only prehaps the equipment might have something to do with the problem
if for starters the binding manufacturers actually realised that a flat binding would be a great startind point then instructors and coaches would have an easier time getting people to ski in balance
around 90% of people who take a ski lesson in colorado never ski again...is this down to bad instruction, or gear which they have to fight against to even stay upright on....mind you it could be down to McDonalds
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
Personally, I'd sack the coach
|
nowt to do with me ...but this type of skiing is very prevalent in ok, but not top, ski racers coming out of the plastic circuit.
Notice how much knee angulation there is? the transitions really suck, put him in a twisted position that in a rutted course would kill him and spit him out.
transitions are all cross under and railroad track turning with an over reliance on the inside ski...
i would say too much seperation but not at the waist but at the knee if that makes sense..
i also dislike the shoulder bobbing/twist going on as it is just barely moving his COM, nothing wrong with inclining into an SL turn but it is not effective here with the twist in the body.
also as Graham points out high low hands is a classic dry slope issue
these werent sneakily filmed lazy runs, they were done under a spotlight during a training session and were meant for peer review.
here is an unflattering still of his transition
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
| .but this type of skiing is very prevalent in ok, but not top, ski racers coming out of the plastic circuit. |
A function of the surface characteristics. When you think about it, it's almost the opposite of snow. Not very slippy, but more importantly not very grippy, hence the skiers COM staying very much over the skis, as they struggle to find the support to allow the COM to drop a long way inside the arc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I love that photo - makes me look positively graceful/athletic in comparison!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
That looks painful!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
skimottaret, do you need to check some settings on that camera? Your stills seem a little 'fuzzy'.
Compare to still here - straight from camera http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/94228/free-race-camp-2011/60 and it was our first day back filming so I was struggling with panning etc. I'm not sure what camera and setting options you have but it does seem a little like the quality is not as good as it could be. Might be worth a couple of test runs with different setting to get a better option?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
little tiger, it is a cropped screen shot of a paused video clip from my pc so very low resolution. The indoor snow domes are very, very dim and you cant get stills photos to come out unless you have professional flood lights, light guns dont even do it. the autofocus struggles on hand held video cameras, i need to play around with the video settings, any suggestions for f stops etc? i have tried the sports portrait beach etc ones and the general portrait seems best. i havent gotten into changing f stops exposures etc and we tend to use fairly low resolution (7mps) to ease playback on our pcs during review sessions and keep file sizes low so we can give copies to clients on memory sticks..
david@mediacopy, agree fully but you get the rabid plastic types who say 'if you can ski plastic you can ski anything brigade' personally i think it is good to get mileage but plastic ingrains bad habits, especially with kids who end up with the rubber leg style we see above. I asked a former GB plastic champion who now races FIS and he said he wouldnt youngsters to train on plastic if they have access to a dome.
beanie1, did you watch the video in real time and catch the transition move on the pause button? i bet a lot of your bromley mob have the same style.... How do you go about making changes to skier 3's transitions (or anything else you dont like?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
skimottaret, the link I gave you was straight from our video camera... I'd noticed the crop but saw similar on the video when I looked again. (Sorry I just started looking as I had the two pictures in tabs next to each other and flicked back and forth a couple of times). I did have the luxury of a tripod for that shot but not aware of the hand helds I did being that much worse, but did have image stabilisation on.(Trying to remember from capturing)
Can you just ++ exposure on auto - I can on ours as well as full manual control.
Don't have access to our settings here. We did a test shoot under our 'standard' conditions (snowy field near Fastman's house - with Fastman running down the hill to simulate movement) and I tried a few different settings - then we went home captured them and picked out the best settings. (Might have been 2-3 days to get the settings we wanted). I remember sitting through video on video camera, and reading books also and picking test settings accordingly - but it was a few years back now. We have the opposite problem mostly - lots of snow(white) and sun. So lots of ND filter needed. Cloudy days give better results.
Can you try to open up shutter as much as possible? Do you have an aperture value setting? that would let you set aperture priority for open but still use auto if you don't want to go full manual...
Maybe the low resolution setting is the problem - we just use standard NTSC non-interlaced.
I was actually wondering if you are using a compression method that is degrading your picture quality?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
little tiger, thanks but i am not a camera person and dont know my f stops from my aperature settings... my video cam is an HD canon with optical image stabilisation which outputs in .MTS which is so huge most laptops cant run effectively, there are four resolutions, 17MPS 12 7 and 5 and i use 7 for throw away review work so the file sizes are small. For stuff i want to keep i use full resolution and then transcode into Mpeg 4 but this is time consuming and doesnt work during client sessions.
will try to open shutter and read up on aperture settings, merci...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
skimottaret, is the former GB plastic champ Luke McCarthy?
Enjoying reading the analysis people have been putting up. Some thing in there that I doubt I would have picked up on, very useful for me!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
R555MAC, no but one of your recent training partners
what do you see in skier 3 ? what would you want him to keep, what would you like to see changed?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, me neither - I just am forced to be because I don't ski as well as Fastman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
2¢ re both skiers from a purely mechanical viewpoint. They both appear to be initiating the turn and rolling the skis onto their edges with their heels and both are simply bobbing up and down to facilitate the edge transition (skier 2 the greater culprit) rather than driving the skis from their leading edges. Is it the artificial environment, surface, blurred visual horizon references or limited slope length that causes both skiers to be riding the rear 2/3 of their skis?
It would be interesting to see both skiers perform the same tasks on an open hill.
Whilst it's interesting to discuss the merits or otherwise of boots and equipment I think that should be moot with 2 experienced skiers who should already have had their tools adjusted to their needs. There is also the fact that we should be able to understand our bodies well enough to learn and compensate for vagaries in our equipment. After all, we should be 'in control' and if we are unable to adjust to suit all the variables that the environment and equipment throw at us then WE are failing and not the equipment.
Though there is a point where that argument falls down but that is well outside the parameters of this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Masque, biggest problem is the % of even high level skiers who have had their boots /skis set up correctly is very low, the really good ones compensate but can be made better the less good just blindly compensate and suffer unless they have someoen tell them to do something about it
equipment set up is not even in most instructor courses, depending on the trainer some trainees get told about it BUT and i hope soon it will be made a part of the whole process
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CEM, What's your view on boot stiffness in that environment ? As it's not as fast and steep as a 'real' hill, do race boots offer a benefit to say skier 3 ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
