 Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Scissoring - When a skier gets their inner ski too far forward weight goes onto the tail of that ski and it wants to go up the hill faster than the outside ski and leads/diverges from the outside ski. When viewed from above the skis appear to "scissor" open. |
I probably wouldn't bother with the cause as there is more than one reason it may occur 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| BUT, neither has any tips on how to improve skiers exhibiting too much tip lead (and) scissoring the inner leg |
That cos there's a variety of root causes which exhibit the same symptom, so it depends what the issue is to solve 
Re the young racers exhibiting this symptom - yes, I've seen it too, and with particular emphasis on young racers, there could be a variety of reason, including:
1. Them mimicking their elders (showing tip lead due to large edge angles) but not really knowing that it's as a result of, and thereby forcing it
2. Them deliberately shuffling the inside ski forward at transition as a drill
3. Bad advice, from their coaches, who may or may not be up to date or have real understanding
etc.
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david@mediacopy, fair enough... how bout
Scissoring - When viewed from above the position a skier is in during a turn when they have their inner ski ahead of the outside ski with the ski tip diverging away from the outside ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, Do you mean skis parrallel or tips diverging ?
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skimottaret, I reckon
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| veeeight wrote: |
2. Them deliberately shuffling the inside ski forward at transition as a drill |
That's what I think I see, that shuffle of the feet at transition. Most of the time I've seen it in the last few days the young skiers seem to be free skiing rather than running specific drills.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, Off topic, a couple of friends did the CSIA L3 course in Andorra. Neither passed but their feedback on the training has been really positive. The husband of 1 (a BASI ISIA) is considering doing the course/exam to help with his Eurotest prep. I didn't do it in the end, though I'll probably do the next one.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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not a lot of scissoring there...
| ski wrote: |
| skimottaret, Do you mean skis parrallel or tips diverging ? |
I had meant with skis parallel but when seeing loads of inner tip lead some diverging is inevetable.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I was worried you were going to repost the image of her and Julia in the jacuzzi. Far too much Chemmy and not enough Julia in that photo for my liking 
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david@mediacopy, you should come along to some of the training weeks we are trying to put together next season for ISIA prep... pm me your email address if interested...
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You know it makes sense.
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
I was worried you were going to repost the image of her and Julia in the jacuzzi. Far too much Chemmy and not enough Julia in that photo for my liking |
Blast, I think I missed that one!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Scissoring - When viewed from above the position a skier is in during a turn when they have their inner ski ahead of the outside ski with the ski tip diverging away from the outside ski. |
Again Svindal must be a pretty poor skier by Snowheads' standards : http://www.skirebel.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/svindal.jpg
Looks like a fair bit of scissoring to me!
I see racers scissoring when they're trying to make tighter turns than their speed and ski radius would otherwise let them. Other skiers use it as a way of controlling speed while 'carving' their outside ski. I remember an article in the ESC magazine a good 15 years ago where a coach was highlighting how scissoring was the only way of doing high-speed carving due to the non-differential sidecuts of a ski and how the inside ski otherwise had to track a shorter radius turn, hence requiring more angulation than given to the outside ski.[/img]
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, we really should have some fun on the snow together sometime!
david@mediacopy, go for it!!!!! It's really good training.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I wonder if what she's doing there is deliberate. I'm wondering that what's happening is that she's got onto her inside ski (see the spray) because the outside ski has broken away from her. I'd say the inside ski is on the sort of line she'd need to make the next gate, while the outside ski is much more towards the fall line. BUT saying that she does still have a bit of flex in her o/s leg so the ski can't have gone that far.....
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Sideshow_Bob, I love the copy...."The event is an annual occasion for enthusiastic amateurs......." 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 14-04-08 16:18; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The inside ski must be travelling a tighter arc than the outside ski, just like the inside steering wheel has a greater angle than the outside one on a vehicle when turning a corner, surely then some degree of scissoring (if I understand the term) is inevitable?
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Oh my word!!
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Thanks. I've read that already. It's rather basic. I wasn't suggesting the old ESC magazine was gospel, rather that people can be too rigid in what they define as 'correct' and how ideas change. It's quite clear from numerous photos that top-class racers both 'scissor' and 'inside-ski-lead' when the conditions/courses require them to.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, thanks for that link - very interesting
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The skier in me prefers the former of the 2 pictures. The hard core skier in me prefers the latter 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, no, on a pure carve, the inside ski track is the same radius as the outside ski track. They only differ by having different centres - your two hip sockets. (ie; they are not concentric circles with the same centre, if you overlay one track over the other they will have the same radius). (Opens new can of worms).
Sideshow_Bob, the gamble of taking photos of racers are trying to justify a particular action, is, that you never know if that was the racer's intent, or if what you see is the outcome (of something else, a recovery move etc.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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veeeight, how come? Surely the inside ski follows a shorter radius. If the carve does not start until the fall line then the inside ski travels a shorter distance....surely, it is simple geometry!
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Frosty the Snowman, the (virtual) radius point of the curve that your skis turn around is not the same for both legs. It is offset by the width of your hips when both skis carve a perfect arc.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| The inside ski must be travelling a tighter arc than the outside ski, just like the inside steering wheel has a greater angle than the outside one on a vehicle when turning a corner, surely then some degree of scissoring (if I understand the term) is inevitable? |
I think there is some slight scissoring, just like due to the angles created and the limitations of the knee joints there is tip lead. In the YouCanSki link I'd argue that in a number of the photos there is some scissoring (the tails of the skis are definitely closer together than the tips), especially at the initiation of the turn. Maier seems to do it more than Raich at initiation. It's subtle but it's there, and remember the photos there have been deliberately chosen to show minimal or no scissoring.
I think we're all in agreement that deliberate scissoring or inside-ski pushing is not a way of initiating a turn nor techniques to think about, merely a biomechanical side-effect of carving.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar,
If it is what I have in mind... I call it a reverse pivot... - type thingey.. 
At first, I couldn't see what is what trying to achieve but once I'd picked up on it I began to see it more often and thought it had a purpose.
I tried to follow it and gave up..... it seemed to fight all I had taught myself and it looked a poor position to me anyway.
I went back to my old style or way of skiing...and have just retained the wider stance in certain cases. Since I have no interest..or rather the time to spend in gates, the old skool, new skool arguements don't really affect me. It is efficiency I'll concentrate on.
Economy of movement is something for me to pursue.... so a nice solid GS turn in deep snow is good which will translate to the piste and vice versa. Shorter turns there are now done with wider skis and a minute weight shift or up and down in deeper snow if needed.
Thankfully, I haven't gotten sidetracked or seduced into tip lead or scissoring from the definitions here. Counter is ok, IMO... but not at all costs in your skiing stance..in that you can keep it engaged too far..IIUI.
All three, if followed too slavishly, seem to be taking your skiing offbase. Maybe pupils have followed the doctrine too far...with out a sense of what they are trying to actually do on skis..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[quote="veeeight"]skimottaret, we really should have some fun on the snow together sometime! [quote]
for sure but Whistler is a bit of a commute for me! Skiing would be much more of a laugh instead of just debating how skiing works
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hi snowheads,
As a very rare contributor to the site I thought I'd flash through some of the threads as I'm going to be instructing at the EoSB next week. To my amazement, I found this chat on inner leg leading and a reference to a drill that I occasionally use involving boot arcs with skis off ( taught it twice this year). This is a drill which I believed until now I was the author and only tutor of, but there we go. I use it specifically to allow clients to feel the outer leg following a defined trajectory through a turn rather than relying wholly on simple input movements. The hopeful output is to eliminate any shoving of the ski out (e.g. stemming) and create a carvier feel to the turn. I always introduce this with a warning that although in the drill without skis on, weight will be placed on the inside foot, this is not to be maintained once the skis are on.
For many it results in much more accuracy during the turn.
So is it a drill for inside ski lead problems. Unfortunately not...
By pushing the outside ski forward as this drill impies, it may lead in this instance to weight being too far forward on both skis. Instead focussing on the inside foot being pushed back from the very start of the turn will allow balance to be maintained through the whole of the foot.
Scissoring (outside ski diverges through the turn) is generally a result of not working the outside ski through the turn and balance dropping onto the inside foot.
Soooo, push the inside foot back under you. Balance and grip will be drastically improved as will the ability to get onto the new outside foot during the transition into the next turn
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was listening to Peter Kostis talk about his golf coaching. He said that he spent 2 weeks working on this and that, to the point that the golfer now had no conflicting thoughts about what his swing was going to do. He thought about where the ball wanted to end up...not how he was going to activate this movement here and there within the confines of his swing...
So.. I took that to mean..trust what you do- if it is working- and let it flow smoothly. You only pick up a problem when it is a problem in the skiing..
I accept that racing needs more focus and exactitude, but possible too many people have too many 'is this right, is that right' going through their heads at the same time in general. After all, I saw these 'faults' as I see it..in free-skiing terms.
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Diverskify, hey Dave, good to have you contribute. Maybe you can look at inner tip lead issues next week if we get some gates training arranged
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Sideshow_Bob, some tip lead and scissoring isnt a bad thing and could be neccessary for holding a line on a course. However, i am seeing a lot of very large tip lead movements and scissoring with intermediates and near advanced level skiers. Might just be luck of the draw and not a general trend but i have been struggling to put them right with relevent drills. THis thread has helped focus me a bit and I initially had a wrong impression of what scissoring was.
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JT, don't you need to do both things from time to time? Think about outcomes and "just doing it" as well as looking at movements in isolation to see if they can/should be improved. I did exactly that in a bumps lesson yesterday, following a 'whole-part-whole' strategy: I did some bumps top to bottom just focusing on a consistent speed, and other times I'd work on one bump at a time, then back to doing top-bottom runs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman, the (virtual) radius point of the curve that your skis turn around is not the same for both legs. It is offset by the width of your hips when both skis carve a perfect arc. |
Even so, if you carve through 180 degrees, the inner ski will (relative to a point on the snow) track a tighter curve. The hips will rotate with the skis (to an extent), so the inner hip moves in a tighter radius to the outer hip, so the inner ski has to turn a tighter radius. The more angle you turn through, the more pronounced this will appear. For relatively lower angle turns across the fall line, the hips stay more perpendicular to the fall line so the requirement for greater inside ski angulation or scissoring is reduced.
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