 Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, your preaching and trying to apply the guilt treatment to FORCE people into wearing helmets. It's our choice, we're adults, we'll make our own minds up thank you very much.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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AxsMan, Well, the media does from time to time print the stories when mountain rescue teams go out to rescue people on the mountain that treked up wearing jeans and a T shirt and then get caught in dodgy conditions when if they had been dressed properly may have got back to base. Just as the RNLI is often called out in nasty weather to other unprepared souls, ditto most of the rescue services. Yes, they are there to rescue and not judge, but every time someone is sent into dodgy conditions for something that could be avoided it costs money and risks lives IMHO. If the wearing of a helmet avoids even one call out I can only see this as positive for the rescue teams involved. Esp. if it involves dispatching a helicopter - I'm given to understand by someone with a relative who flies one that helicopters and mountains are not necessarily a safe combination.
In support of the 'rescue not judge' issue I bet it is similar with doctors and nurses who should also treat and not judge. However, I bet medical practioners who see a case of lung cancer in someone who does 40 a day must surely think 'why do these people still smoke when they know the risks', or maybe see the person who has been chucked against the windscreen of a car who wasn't wearing a seatbelt because they didn't think it was worth the risk, who don't shake their heads and wonder about their perceived invincibility. I imagine they must also shake their heads when a ski head injury presents that could be avoided with a helmet whether it is ethical to do so or not - again it costs money and resources to treat and could be using resources that may be better spent treating injuries that are unavoidable.
At the end of the day everyone will still make their own choices and I think saying thou shalt will only make people rebel for the reason that choice is being eroded. I still think helmets are a good thing and if someone asks I'll tell them so, but although I've written some thoughts here on Snowheads from time to time I don't think I fall into the category of being a zealot over them. I try to balance my views with the reasons for them. If I see someone skiing without a helmet I'm not going to mention the fact to them at all, let alone say that I think they are wrong. At the end of the day the choice is down to them, their risk assessment, none of my business. Maybe a good idea would be for resorts to offer free loans of decent helmets for a day and then offer a discount if the client decides to buy after trying one out. At least that would give people a chance to see if they are as bad as they are expecting.
However, given the fact that this an emotive subject I think I will now don my skiing helmet and duck behind the nearest parapet!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, I'm afraid that behind your elaborate show of apparent tolerance, I see nothing but conceited moralising.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Grimsby Ranger, I don't recall suggesting that you couldn't make up your own minds. No one can reasonably FORCE anyone to do anything - let alone me. If you're looking for a suggestion it is that I would rather that you didn't read into what people write something that isn't there, let alone accuse them of something that isn't intended.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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laundryman, Well, I guess you see what you want to see, but then we often don't see eye to eye. If you don't hold it against me I won't hold it against you 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, come off it, suggesting it's not fair on the emergency services and could put them at danger if someone hits their head, is not wearing a helmet and needs to be rescued; that's emotional blackmail in my book.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Megamum, I'm afraid that behind your elaborate show of apparent tolerance, I see nothing but conceited moralising. |
You're just seeing what you want to see. People who smoke tend to feel the same way about moralising, although of course that is a far more stupid activity than skiing sans helmet!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I looked all week for a piste patroller, a ski instructor, a lift engineer or any other resort worker wearing a helmet. I saw none, except when riding a skidoo when a helmet is a legal requirment (but semingly not having to fasten it!)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 24-02-08 22:35; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The latest figures posted by uktrailmonster,
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| latest copy of the Daily Mail Ski & Snowboard magazine, it seems that collisions on French pistes are in fact a very real threat. Apparently, on French pistes alone there were 14,400 collisions reported last season |
Well, let's look at the numbers:
14,400 collisions reported last season in France
260,000 skiers transported on the 183 lifts in 3 Valleys PER HOUR
So, if all the accidents that were reported in France last season were by some bizarre twist of fate to have happened within 1 hour across JUST the 3 Valleys ski area, that would be a figure of 6% of injuries being caused by collision!
I don't know the number of skiers in France each season but let's extrapolate the above figure for one hour at 3 Valleys to ..... ummm? 4.6million (plucked from the air and probably an underestimate)
Now, let's run those numbers again....
14,400 collisions reported last season in France
4,600,000 skiers per season in France
Result? 0%
I now feel the need to reiterate the following point I made a couple of pages ago.
| flowa wrote: |
Somewhere in this thread the statistic quoted is that only 5% of injuries involve more than one skier. Therefore isn't wearing a helmet irresponsible as YOU are effectively turning yourself into the backseat passenger who doesn't wear a seatbelt; due to the damage you cause to another on impact?
Assuming that YOU ski responsibly and would only be in an accident that required a helmet due to YOUR own error, then you are entirely in charge of mitigating your risk by controlling the way YOU ski - whatever your level.
Surely this trend towards the majority of skiers wearing helmets is actually putting all skiers at greater risk of injury in the small number of incidents that actually involve more than one? |
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 24-02-08 22:37; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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oops - I decided to lower the figure from 6.3m to 4.6m (which had no affect on the 0% result but forgot to change the text. Apologies for any confusion there.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| I looked all week for a piste patroller, a ski instructor, a lift engineer or any other resort worker wearing a helmet. I saw none, except when riding a skidoo when a helmet is a legal requirment (but semingly not having to fasten it!) |
In France I'm guessing? People generally seem to have different ideas of risk assessment over in mainland Europe. for example moped riders in many European cities ride around quite happily with a deathwish. If you go to places like China, they take it to another level altogether. On the other hand ski helmets in Canada are considered the norm. So does that mean Canada is a more dangerous place to ski than France? I very much doubt it. There is no right answer, but wearing or not wearing a helmet just because others do or don't is just acting like a sheep.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Grimsby Ranger wrote: |
| Megamum, your preaching and trying to apply the guilt treatment to FORCE people into wearing helmets. It's our choice, we're adults, we'll make our own minds up thank you very much. |
Perhaps you shuold consider reading what was actually written, and responding to that, rather than to what you wanted her to have written?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sarge, You may be fond of another onel liner. I am probably you think is "anti helmet brigade", you could not be further from the truth. Mrs RH wears one and so do all of her friends. Not anti anything with helmets. It is those people that insist I SHOULD wear a helmet that I find irritating. Little irritatations can be solved with ointment I am led to believe! I do not drink excessivly nor do I take drugs and even if I were living in the UK the NHS would cover me and rightly so.
Wear a helmet if you like, ride a motorcycle if you like, have a few drinks if you like, eat steak tartare if you like! What I and others here are saying is make your own decision. People on this site have their own opinions, some we have heard have had accidents and a helmet saved them a cut/bruise/stiches/their life! Their experience is their experience. My experiences may be different to others and as valid.
I have more of a bee in my bonnet by drug fueled, alchohol affected skiers / boarders without a care for others on the piste than dictating to everyone on the mountain that they should wear a helmet or condom or anything else. Tell the world by all means of your life experiences, you may find that others may appreciate your acquired wisdom, many on the other hand may feel they have a more informed opinion on this or any other topic. Grimsby Ranger, and uktrailmonster, have experiences of life also so reading all the posts will give others a more balanced side to the debate, not just a chip on both shoulders!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Grimsby Ranger, As with laundryman, I can't do anything about how you see my comments |
Nobody asked you to.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| Grimsby Ranger, As with laundryman, I can't do anything about how you see my comments |
Nobody asked you to. |
So what, exactly, did you think the point of your post was?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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alex_heney, to give my interpretation of Megamum's previous comment.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| AxsMan, Well, the media does from time to time print the stories when mountain rescue teams go out to rescue people on the mountain that treked up wearing jeans and a T shirt and then... blah blah blah! |
So what does that have to do with piste patrollers and the wearing or not of helmets?
Sorry Megamum but your emotional blackmail doesn't wash. Wearing or not wearing a helmet does not put any piste patroller at risk, so your point is BUNKUM. You are ProfessorFool and I claim my £5 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Megamum, I'm afraid that behind your elaborate show of apparent tolerance, I see nothing but conceited moralising. |
neatly (and accurately) put. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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If a person not competing but skiing/boarding among crowds on a groomed run feels there is nothing he/she can do, including moderating the speed, to make himdelf/herself safe but to wear a helmet then he/she is going too fast!
In a like manner if a skier/boarder is going at a speed that he/her is not aware of a collision and be able to make evasive action then he/she should slow down and not just put a lid on the head.
How do we know the people who ask us to wear a helmet are not from the above?
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| laundryman wrote: |
| alex_heney, to give my interpretation of Megamum's previous comment. |
But you did no such thing.
You just posted a personal insult, nothing more.
you didn't say anythuing at all about the content of what she had posted.
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boredsurfin, I also have never seen a ski instructor (French or British) or piste patroller wearing a helmet.
Are things different elsewhere? Sounds like Canada is for one.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alex_heney, 'Nobody asked you to' is not a personal insult.
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| AxsMan wrote: |
| alex_heney, 'Nobody asked you to' is not a personal insult. |
No, but "I'm afraid that behind your elaborate show of apparent tolerance, I see nothing but conceited moralising." is, IMO.
It wasn't the "nobody asked you to" post I was referring to when I asked what was the point of your post.
Sorry if that wasn't obvious 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| saikee wrote: |
If a person not competing but skiing/boarding among crowds on a groomed run feels there is nothing he/she can do, including moderating the speed, to make himdelf/herself safe but to wear a helmet then he/she is going too fast!
In a like manner if a skier/boarder is going at a speed that he/her is not aware of a collision and be able to make evasive action then he/she should slow down and not just put a lid on the head.
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Sorry, but neither of those is remotely close to being true.
How fast you may be going has no relevance whatsoever to whether you are likley to be taken out by somebody else you didn't see or hear, whio is skiing out of control.
You can be at a standstill and be hit by such a skier.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Listen folks, the day I go for in for emotional blackmail it will come with a suitable health warning - OK?
Call the situation hypothetical if you wish, but I still believe that if you send someone out to rescue someone who has an injury that could have been avoided you endanger those sent and also cost someone somewhere cash and resources - the helicopter sent to retrieve an avoidable injury could therefore be unavailable for a more serious unavoidable incident.
Sorry, but its just how I was bought up, I was always taught the difference between right and wrong and that includes deference to services that are provided by the emergency services and similar folks. You try to avoid putting yourself in a situation which requires their assistance so they are free to do their jobs elsewhere.
So now you are going to say that I ski and it therefore invalidates my own argument. I think the fact that skiing is not the safest sport on the planet has to be accepted, however, we all like doing it, it ranks alongside driving a car, riding a bicycle, riding a horse, motorbike etc. as risky things we all decide to do. I think the emergency services probably accept it as such - if they are local it no doubt provides employment for someone in their family so they are probably pleased to see you on their mountain. However, in terms of managing the risk I think the addition of a helmet is a relatively small thing to do and could prevent an unnecessary call out. I also feel the same about horse riders that I see in hi-vis jackets - this is becoming more popular and I am always pleased as a motorist to see a rider wearing one - I think it shows a responsible outlook and it could avoid a nasty accident. However, as with the ski helmet issue you couldn't say though shalt wear a hi-vis jacket because we still believe in free speach and in the ability of each individual to make their own decision. As I've indicated above these are only my thoughts, I am as entitled to them as the rest of you are to your's.
Whether you wear a helmet or not makes no difference to me, until the day when I might find myself snowploughing an adjacent black run to save you from unconsciousness and possible suffocation on your own tongue because you've tumbled without a helmet and your head has struck a rock and I'm the one that saw you fall from my nearby blue run - don't worry I'll come though regardless of what anyone has said here 'cos I'm trained to do so.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 25-02-08 0:03; edited 1 time in total
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| alex_heney, to give my interpretation of Megamum's previous comment. |
But you did no such thing.
You just posted a personal insult, nothing more.
you didn't say anythuing at all about the content of what she had posted. |
alex_heney, But laundryman, DID say something about the contents of her post. he said that it was an elaborate show of tolerance, but that he saw it to be conceited moralising. This probably was insulting, (you have to ask Megamum to be sure, maybe it was just perceptive , but it definitely did say something about the contents of her post.
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You know it makes sense.
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Isn't anyone interested in how the statistics show that your chances of being involved in a collision are a fraction of 0% and that the 'trend' towards everyone wearing a helmet is potentially putting all skiers at higher risk of suffering an injury on collision due to damage caused by helmets themselves?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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AxsMan, OK, since you're asking I found it quite insulting, but was trying not to rise to the bait OK, so that's that cat let out of the bag.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| flowa wrote: |
| Isn't anyone interested in how the statistics show that your chances of being involved in a collision are a fraction of 0% and that the 'trend' towards everyone wearing a helmet is potentially putting all skiers at higher risk of suffering an injury on collision due to damage caused by helmets themselves? |
[Pedant]You can't have a fraction of 0%[/pedant] 
It is an interesting question whether a collision between two people where one is wearing a helmet and the other isn't is likely to lead to more injury than a similar collision where neither are wearing helmets.
Incidentally, I hink the chances of being involved in "a collision" are far higher than you suggest. It is only collisions involving ijnury that are reported - which I accept are generally the only ones relevant to this debate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum,
| Quote: |
| I might find myself snowploughing an adjacent black run to save you from unconsciousness and possible suffocation on your own tongue because you've tumbled without a helmet and your head has struck a rock and I'm the one that saw you fall from my nearby blue run |
Are you an early intermediate skier?
If you are may be your opinion on helmet is as good as you are hoping to go down a black run by snowploughing.
Snowploughing only works on gentle slopes and you have to ditch it on the red runs, let alone black runs. You also need loose snow to plough and many slopes may have little or locally none of such stuff.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 25-02-08 0:16; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| saikee wrote: |
Megamum,
Are you an early intermediate skier?
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She has only skied blues up to now.
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Snowploughing only works on gentle slopes and you have to ditch it on the red runs, let alone black runs. You also need loose snow to plough and many slopes may have little or locally none of such stuff. |
Snowploughing "works" on anything that isn't too icy.
It is very much more effort to make it work on steeper slopes, but I have certainly done it on occasion on fairly steep reds (I don't think I have ever tried it on a black though).
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flowa,
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YOU are effectively turning yourself into the backseat passenger who doesn't wear a seatbelt; due to the damage you cause to another on impact?
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I'm guessing here, but reckon that the only major damage that could conceivably be caused by a helmeted head is to another, non-helmeted head. Maybe even that is not certain, the impact from someone's skull is maybe not very much smaller than the impact from a helmeted skull. But in any event, I doubt that the number of head-to-head collisions is statistically significant. This seems like a non-point, but some evidence to shed light on your interesting proposition would be welcome.
boredsurfin, I recently saw a number of ski instructors wearing helmets in Switzerland (Davos/Klosters).
I cannot for the life of me see why people repeatedly get so heated about this. If/when helmets become compulsory, people will have to wear them. Till then, just let everybody - especially a bunch of people that you don't know from Adam, and with whom your only contact is on an internet forum - do what the hell they like. Equally, there's no harm in having one's own personal opinion, one way or the other, on what is advisable. I quite like my helmet, and feel a bit (but frankly not much) safer from potential collision damage in it. I would never try to persuade someone else to wear one. Having said that, before I bought one, a kindly Ski Club rep of my acquaintance did try, gently, to persuade me to do so: I didn't think ill of him for that, he plainly had my best interests at heart.
All very puzzling...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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AxsMan, No mountain rescue, but I know enough to try to save the life of someone unconscious - volunteer member of St John Ambulance. If you, or anyone else were halfway down a black run and unconscious I'd scamble down somehow on skis or otherwise and do what I could for you, because without an open airway you'd never make it until the pro's turned up.
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FAQ
