 Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, could be worse; those numpties may be wearing their ipods!!!! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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yes of coarse everybody has seen them but its simple, beginners cant ski and I personaly try not to be rude about anyone,being polite costs nothing!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| shorty wrote: |
| yes of coarse everybody has seen them but its simple, beginners cant ski and I personaly try not to be rude about anyone,being polite costs nothing!!! |
No, I think you misunderstand. There is a BIG difference between beginners who can't ski and stupid out of control intermediates. If we're talking about what's rude, I think it's extremely rude to ski beyond your own personal limits on a crowded public piste.
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have skied twice if not more for 20 yrs plus with young family and partys and dont seem to have attracted so many crash sites as yourselves,so maybe m the lucky one or maybe your unlucky,but surely out of control intermediates equals beginners,
out of control meaning no control but finding themselves being a little braver than before,i would stick to sking where these so called pests will not venture if it means you feeling safer,after all im sure that they have paid for their fun just the same as all other slope users
i dont know of any skiers who have not had to learn their new found skills.
saying that there is always going to be accidents this is the naturer of sking,there is always going to be someone who is out of control,
please try to be a little understanding, ski and let ski if you like 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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shorty, You appear to be misunderstanding the type of skier being talked about here.
We are NOT talking about beginners, who are skiing as well as they can for the slope.
We are talking about intermediates, who can ski harder slopes, but then who when they get on an easier slope seem to think that they can ski without worrying about control. They are then skiing out of control, even though they could easily ski in control on that slope.
It is only a small proportion who act this way, but they can have a disproportionate effect on overall safety of others on the slope.
Out of control intermediates does NOT equal beginners.
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alex_heney, True, very true and you only need one such numpty to cause a problem for others. I am sure shorty, did not mean that those out of control had to be beginners.
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alex_heney, Roy Hockley, uktrailmonster, Absolutely. and funnily enough, the out of control intermediates who think they are Bode Miller tend to be male and under the age of 25.
At Wengen last week, TWO teenage German lads skied into the lift queue at the Honegg lift AT SPEED. The last few yards down to the queue was a bit steep and hard packed so Me and the wife had chosen to move to the 'far side' of the queue 'just in case'. The guy they hit ended up tangled in the turnstiles and though not hospitalised was clearly winded.
The only protection against idiots like that is to have your eyes, ears and radar senses operating to the max. (and find a large Austrian woman to hide behind  )
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I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm not the first to observe.......
Somewhere in this thread the statistic quoted is that only 5% of injuries involve more than one skier. Therefore isn't wearing a helmet irresponsible as YOU are effectively turning yourself into the backseat passenger who doesn't wear a seatbelt; due to the damage you cause to another on impact?
Assuming that YOU ski responsibly and would only be in an accident that required a helmet due to YOUR own error, then you are entirely in charge of mitigating your risk by controlling the way YOU ski - whatever your level.
Surely this trend towards the majority of skiers wearing helmets is actually putting all skiers at greater risk of injury in the small number of incidents that actually involve more than one?
edit = switch around of paragraph order.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 19-02-08 15:19; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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flowa, indeed.. in 10 years the whole piste will look like an american football pitch.. 
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A frog at the bottom of a well can tell how big the sky is.
We all like a frog in a well and are probably telling others our sky size is more correct.
I got a feeling those claim to know about personal safety better than the person himself/herself probably living in a deeper well than mine.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
All that piste gradings mean is a rough guide to the relative difficulty of different pistes within an area. |
Without wishing to dilute the central thrust of this well-worn discussion, is that statement absolutely correct?
For instance, if one skied in an unfamiliar resort for the first time and in fact, generally speaking, the red runs resemble blacks in your "usual" resort(s) and the blues, reds and green, blues (you get the drift), then there is the potential for people to indeed find themselves out of depth as far as their ability goes.
I can quite see the sense in a grading system that is relative to the area but, with the seemingly never ending debate around safety, responsibility and insurance and liability etc etc etc, maybe the more challenging resorts or 'areas' should market themselves accordingly. Or in other words, perhaps stop trying to be all things to all people.
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| Mark Hunter wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
All that piste gradings mean is a rough guide to the relative difficulty of different pistes within an area. |
Without wishing to dilute the central thrust of this well-worn discussion, is that statement absolutely correct?
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Yes, absolutely correct. After all, We're talking about different countries and continents. The ratings are "similar" but not identical.
Further more, daily condition will make a red as difficult as black on some days and as easy as green on other.
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For instance, if one skied in an unfamiliar resort for the first time and in fact, generally speaking, the red runs resemble blacks in your "usual" resort(s) and the blues, reds and green, blues (you get the drift), then there is the potential for people to indeed find themselves out of depth as far as their ability goes.
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But only for one run (barring psychological barrier to learn, that is  ).
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, the comment by alex_heney suggests that the grading can relate to the difficulty of pistes area by area, not necessarily country by country - not looking to split hairs though.
The central thrust of what I was probably over-simplifying in terms of an example was that one does tend to hear reports of resorts trying to be all things to all people. Inevitably that can lead to some people experiencing injury/nervousness/loss of confidence etc etc and some people causing problems for others as a result of being over-stretched by the run they find themselves on that they considered within their ability.
Daily conditions of course make a daily difference and I'm not sure that's entirely relevant to the point I was (probably badly) trying to make.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mark Hunter, my point being (the last line of my post), once a skier found they're over their head on a piste of certain rating, whether that's due to being in a new area or just a new day, it's time to move DOWN to an easier one. Unless, of course, their ego stop them from doing so.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| shorty wrote: |
have skied twice if not more for 20 yrs plus with young family and partys and dont seem to have attracted so many crash sites as yourselves,so maybe m the lucky one or maybe your unlucky,but surely out of control intermediates equals beginners,
out of control meaning no control but finding themselves being a little braver than before,i would stick to sking where these so called pests will not venture if it means you feeling safer,after all im sure that they have paid for their fun just the same as all other slope users
i dont know of any skiers who have not had to learn their new found skills.
saying that there is always going to be accidents this is the naturer of sking,there is always going to be someone who is out of control,
please try to be a little understanding, ski and let ski if you like |
Nobody is having a pop at responsible beginners or intermediates here. My wife was a complete beginner only a few years ago and I'm certainly not rude to her! But then she's never skied like an out of control idiot either. There are responsible learners and there are dickheads. It doesn't matter that they both pay the same for their lift passes. So less of the patronising please.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mark Hunter, No doubt you are aware that the general classification to a resort piste grading is mainly for marketing. A certain % of blues to get beginners, a certain % of reds to entertain the "intermediates", and the % of blacks to to keep the experts excited. Not forgetting a certain % of blacks to let the intermediate feel they are experts! So the grading is only relevant to that particular resort. The "Blue" - Vert in Val D'Isere going down to La Daille, graded so that there is an "easy" route down!!!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am rather relaxed about piste grading for the following reasons.
(1) As Roy Hockley has said resort owners tend to select gradings for market purpose to attract visitors. If one can accept adverts with cars flying around in roof tops, subscribing internet phone can turn working into holiday then the inaccuracy of piste grading is very "mild".
(2) I believe each grading has a band so that it can go either way if gradient is near the border of two classifications.
(3) Only inexperienced skiers are unhappy with margin of errors in the piste grading. Boarders don't seem to mind and skiers who can ski black runs comfortably don't really care if a red slope classified as blue. It is only a phase one will grow out off. There are isolated examples that obviously stand out, like La Daille in Val D.
(4) One can get large scale contoured maps of the site to check the runs. There is an enormous amount of published maps available for most French and Swiss resorts for walking and hiking purposes. I did this at my early days.
(5) When one visits enough resorts one no longer feels particular specially about the slope gradings. Resorts in each country are quite consistent. The French and Italian resorts are more variable but that may be because they have the additional green runs. It may also to do with one soon realise doing blue runs in France is different to doing them in Switzerland or Austria. Thus the additional experience helps one to modify one's expectation to become more flexible with grading errors.
(6) May be I am naive but I expect within each grading there must be easy and difficult ones according to the possible slope angles in that classification. The weather and piste condition can also increase and reduce the challenge of going down the same run. Therefore it sound silly to blame the resort's classification of runs if one got injured. Afterall if the run is obvious dangerous one can inform the lift operator and choose to take the same lift to go back downhill.
(7) Although not all the time but in a lot of cases one can take the nearest chairlift or gondola or cable car to check out the piste grading/ condition and satisfy with oneself before embarking on it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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AH,dickheads,yes I must agree there seems to be some dickheads sking.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't see why piste grading is a safety issue. Surely even an early intermediate should know how to side step and side slip - if they end up on a piste that is too tough for them to link turns they can surely get down it safely using these techniques.
It may be a miss-selling problem though. I can imagine that if you chose a resort because it had pleasant easy runs to resort and it turned out they were actually not enjoyable for intermediates then you migh well be cheased off! Val D'Isere being the obvious case.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Surely even an early intermediate should know how to side step and side slip - if they end up on a piste that is too tough for them to link turns they can surely get down it safely using these techniques. |
You'd think so wouldnt you - there was a thread on here recently were a number of skiiers admitted they couldnt do this. I was quite astonished by that one.
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JDC, not much fun side-slipping down Verte on bolier-plate ice whilst others are floundering around you.
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| jedster wrote: |
I don't see why piste grading is a safety issue. Surely even an early intermediate should know how to side step and side slip - if they end up on a piste that is too tough for them to link turns they can surely get down it safely using these techniques.
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It is a safety issue because not all skiers are mature enough (or even necessarily experienced enough) to realise that the piste is harder than they expected and they are out of their depth.
So they keep trying to ski it "normally", when it is beyond what they are safe to do that on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alex_heney, Agreed, and then there's the 'panic' factor.
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| shorty wrote: |
| AH,dickheads,yes I must agree there seems to be some dickheads sking. |
top marks for the obscure Curb Your Enthusiasm ref
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Surely even an early intermediate should know how to side step and side slip - if they end up on a piste that is too tough for them to link turns they can surely get down it safely using these techniques. |
Not so "sure" about that. I certainly didn't learn to side slip until I was way into skiing most blacks (and got stuck numerous times on too steep & icy ones).
You can't reasonably side step down a long piste. You either knows how to side slip, or you don't.
The matter isn't so much side-slipping a piste over their head. It's more of a matter of NOT ENTIRELY in control. Typically, a lower intermediate in a piste too steep would be able to make a few turns. But they would pick up speed significantly. Now, they're semi-out-of-control. If they have enough sense of self-preservation, they wiould traverse to a stop, which cause chaos in the downward flow traffic (especially when there're many of those). Or they continue without bothering checking their speed and become out of control entirely...
But I'm not making excuse for them. Either way, they should know better NOT to go back up that same run, or anything resembling it!!!
| Quote: |
It may be a miss-selling problem though. I can imagine that if you chose a resort because it had pleasant easy runs to resort and it turned out they were actually not enjoyable for intermediates then you migh well be cheased off! Val D'Isere being the obvious case |
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The idea of absolute piste gradings fall down because if resort A then had all greens and resort B all blacks, what would that tell you about the relative difficulty of the pistes and what was the easier or harder ways down within each area?
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And you would not attract a mixed ability group to your resort!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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And you would not attract a mixed ability group to your resort!!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc
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Not so "sure" about that. I certainly didn't learn to side slip until I was way into skiing most blacks (and got stuck numerous times on too steep & icy ones).
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Really? Surely in the earliest lessons people are taught to sideslip as a way of getting the sensation of tipping the ski to hold an edge?
I almost had an "in my day" moment there!
J
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Poster: A snowHead
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jedster, "my day" isn't all that recent either. It's quite a long while back...
I've skied with enough "intermediates" to know many don't even know what a side-slip is, while many aren't comfortable to do it when they most needed it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
| I've skied with enough "intermediates" to know many don't even know what a side-slip is, while many aren't comfortable to do it when they most needed it. |
How sad for them but where's their personal interest in doing something well? Fancy taking up a sport and not striving to understand all the fundamentals?!?
Anyone about to argue "but if they're new to it how will they know what the fundamentals are?". STOP. That is an argument for morons. All you do is..... wait for it...... ASK. Astonishing.
Megamum, I salute you  .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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abc, skiing and golf, as well as many other sporting and artistic activities, can be enjoyed at many levels. I don't think your distinction between a sport and a pastime is a meaningful one: leaving aside the professionals, people should be allowed to pursue their leisure activities to whatever standard they find enjoyable (without, of course, putting others in danger.)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting to hear people suggesting that Swiss slopes may have fewer collisions than chocca French ones. Both the bloke and I commented how few accidents or falls, we saw in Zermatt over the peak New Year week. The conditions were good but there certainly were icy and lumpy bits. The behaviour and standard of the average skier seemed higher than we have seen previously. The worst carnage we ever saw was in the same week in Deux Alpes in 2005 when conditions were perfect with bucket loads of soft snow right down to resort. Everyday after lunch we skied to the hum of helicopters lifting motionless skiers off the slopes and watched in horror as people were stretchered off the mountain. We saw lots of collisions and falls involving out of control boarders. Incidently I haven't got it in for boarders, boarding isn't the problem - the problem is 19 year olds out of their heads on testosterone and until perhaps the last year or so with twin tips on the scene, 19 year old idiots naturally opted for boarding, they would manage to be dangerous on a space hopper!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| abc, skiing and golf, as well as many other sporting and artistic activities, can be enjoyed at many levels. I don't think your distinction between a sport and a pastime is a meaningful one: leaving aside the professionals, people should be allowed to pursue their leisure activities to whatever standard they find enjoyable (without, of course, putting others in danger.) |
So you shouldn't have any problem of many "intermediates" not able to side-slip (or not understanding the "fundermentals") then...?
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abc, well I don't think I'd call those people 'intermediates' - probably best not to get into that minefield, though - but, so long as they don't endanger others, let them do as they will. I think they'd increase their enjoyment and their own safety if they learned a few basic techniques, to be sure, but it's up to them really. There's not a huge amount of skill required to potter about on easy blues and greens, enjoying snow, sun and scenery. Thundering down slopes which are too difficult for them and causing collisions - I acknowledge that's a different matter. I guess that's where skiing differs from other leisure activities such as painting, music making, tennis, golf, whatever - it's potentially dangerous. Needn't be, though, for people who are content to ski within their limited abilities. Trust me - I know! (But I can side-slip!)
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| abc wrote: |
| flowa wrote: |
How sad for them but where's their personal interest in doing something well? Fancy taking up a sport and not striving to understand all the fundamentals?!? |
To some, skiing isn't a "sport" but a "recreation activity". (In the same vain, is golf a sport or a pass time?) |
Oh, come on? Are you seriously suggesting that if you approach skiing as a "recreation(al) activity" you are somehow absolved of any duty to yourself and others to learn about the skills required to be safe while doing it?
Do you, does anyone here, really want to be part of the incessant creep towards the lowest-common-denominator that this attitude espouses?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Side slipping is an essential and fundamental skill and if you can't do it you shouldn't be on the mountain skiing freely, you should be in ski school learning the basics. (fuse lit, now runs...)
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| Quote: |
Do you, does anyone here, really want to be part of the incessant creep towards the lowest-common-denominator that this attitude espouses?
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I WAS once that lowest common denominator, whether I wanted to or not. My earlier post:
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| I certainly didn't learn to side slip until I was way into skiing most blacks |
It WAS to me a pass time, not a sport. While I was athletic enough to pick it up reasonably quickly, it was not obvious going onto the most difficult trail of a resort has to be the purpose of a ski holiday! Hence, learning the "fundermental" was part of a process but not the most central one.
I've been in competitive sport all my school life. Skiing (which I picked up after uni), unless one is into racing, didn't come CLOSE to any sports I did!
It resembles more like ballroom dancing (or ballet) than basket ball (or tennis).  While "learning the fundermental" benefits both kind of "sport", for dancing & skiing, it's not nearly as essential for some degree of enjoyment.
| Quote: |
| you are somehow absolved of any duty to yourself and others to learn about the skills required to be safe while doing it? |
Now, we're stretching the truth quite far here!
Even without knowing how to side-slip, I managed to be in control all the time while on the slope. All one has to do is go SLOWLY.
Side-slipping is a good learning tool and may get you through a bit of a tight spot. But you simply can not slip an entire 1/4 mile long slope that's way over your head. You have to SKI it.
If I may say so, if you ski well enough (and keep your ego in check for wanting to "make it down" the hardest piste in the resort), you don't NEED to side slip half as much as most think.
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