 Poster: A snowHead
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Odin, 
Trouble-maker
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Can you get a helmet that works with an iPhone?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, I understand the point you're making - however, I did apply the statement to myself too
I can't really see why someone should take offence to what was a pretty innocuous statement (and one, based on the studies that I have read about, would also appear to be true).
Afterall, t's not like I accused someone of talking rubbish 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, was it a Mac helmet?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jonflat2 wrote: |
| rob@rar, I understand the point you're making |
Good, best we move on then.
For the record I wear a helmet some of the time, but not all of it. It's a personal choice which depends on a range of factors, and I won't judge people who come to a different conclusion to me.
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rob@rar, there's gotta be an answer to that - but for once I am lost for words
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles,
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Good, best we move on then.
For the record I wear a helmet some of the time, but not all of it. It's a personal choice which depends on a range of factors, and I won't judge people who come to a different conclusion to me. |
Nice of you to put words into my mouth before we 'move on'. Thank you.
It looks like you are determined to have the last word, so I shall leave this topic and allow you to do just that. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There'll be a more official announcement about this at some point but it looks like, for insurance reasons, we'll have to make helmets compulsory at snowHeads Bashes in France soon.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| admin wrote: |
| There'll be a more official announcement about this at some point but it looks like, for insurance reasons, we'll have to make helmets compulsory at snowHeads Bashes in France soon. |
That will be a reason not to ski in France any more, I'm off to the Urals where they are still sain
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You know it makes sense.
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| admin wrote: |
| There'll be a more official announcement about this at some point but it looks like, for insurance reasons, we'll have to make helmets compulsory at snowHeads Bashes in France soon. |
Will that apply to the evenings as well as the days? Some of the Lardy Apres Ski looks quite dangerous to me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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slingman, surprised at the French though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| slingman, surprised at the French though. |
I think it was a tongue-in-cheek comment from Admin 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, oops didn't read it properly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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To anyone who believes wearing a helmet should remain optional I say you are off your head.
I have just returned from a skiing holiday to be greeted by the news that a good friend of mine, an experienced skier, has been left paralysed from the waist down following a seemingly innocuous fall.
On top of that, while in search of some ibuprofen gel I discovered that the pharmacy in Lech is located in the Medical Centre housing two GP's and support staff. During the ten or twelve minutes I spend there I witnessed about eleven or twelve serious injuries being prepared for transfer to the local hospital. This did not include another half a dozen or so minor injuries including nasty cuts or dislocations. The moral of the story is simple. Skiing is dangerous. That’s a fact and there is no getting away from it.
Unfortunately however taking care of yourself isn't always enough because its not only your own actions that can put you at risk but also the irresponsible behaviour or accidental mistakes of others that further put you at risk. I believe that anything that increases your safety level should be mandatory regardless of whether or not it may represent an inconvenience. And when I say it should be mandatory I do so because unfortunately some people have to be protected from their own stupidity. Believe it or not there are still people who believe they should have the right to choose whether or not they should have to wear a safety belt. Although a helmet may not have saved my friend a back protector possibly might have. As an instructor pointed out to us during our trip the statistics are the same every year. There are always fatalities and serious injuries. Furthermore for someone to suggest that wearing such gear leads to increased recklessness is just pure stupid
Another thing I feel terribly annoyed about is the fact that ski resorts are self-grading. I chose Lech because of the large proportion of blue slopes only to discover that some of these slopes were more challenging than some of the reds I have skied on in other resorts. In an increasing culture of health and safety awareness this situation can not be let continue. Coming from an insurance background I can assure readers that it is only a matter of time before an injured skier sues a resort for not accurately informing him or her of the correct level of difficulty of a slope. In the same way the proprietor of a commercial premises has a duty of care towards the welfare of his patrons, ski resort owners and controllers will have to become accountable for the descriptions of their slopes. The ski industry including all the associated tourism, merchandising and product sales is far to big for this crazy arrangement to continue.
While I am desperately upset by the terrible misfortune that has befallen my friend and his family I must confess that I still love skiing and even with the events of the last ten days I will ski again but neither I nor my wife or children will ever again go near a slope without a helmet and a back protector. These should be regarded as minimum safety measures. They won’t protect against all injuries but they will certainly reduce your risk of injury and if I had my way they wouldn't be optional. By the way my friend was also in Niederau last week and was treated in the same clinic where the instructor above with the head injury was treated. It seems the instructor was in a very bad way....quite worrying coming from a man who had just been told he would probably never walk again.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BarryOS, Sorry to hear about your friend, As above we were in Niederau on the day when these two accidents happened.
(Our daughter was in the same ski-class as one of your friends children.) There was also another nasty accident the following day.
My thoughts were the same as yours - If it can happen to experienced, very good skiers like these It can certainly happen to us.
As I said before we will now always wear helmets and I will now look in to back protectors as well.
Please pass on our best wishes to your friend, and our hopes that he makes progress with his injury.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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BarryOS,
If your friend got paralysed then you should have advised others to wear a back protector to safe guard the spine. Helmet is the wrong gear for such a injury.
Your one trip in 10 days in Lech does not represent the everyday occurrence in the Alps.
Your apprehension of regarding the blue slopes being more difficult than some of the red slopes you have skied before is a testimony of your experience.
An experienced skier would have dismissed your concern because this is quite common in skiing resorts. Add to that the snow condition, poor visibility, wind blast, obstacles, number of skiers on the piste, stones, bald patches, ice, too much snow, too little snow, wet snow, loose snow, missing snow, water, grass, tree roots, etc.... can all make the same piste suddenly much more challenging than it was previously. Until you have seen all these and coped with them you can't possibly say one blue is more difficult than another red based on the good condition at the time you skied the red run.
As I could not take your opinion seriously on the blue slopes unfairly graded, for being more challenging than the red runs you have previously skied on, I have to treat your concern with helmet with similar disregard. It is likely that after skiing more number of years, in more resorts, visiting more countries, more off peak time where there are a lot less skiers, and on more number of difficult runs, like steep red and black where there are a lot less bad and irresponsible skiers, you view may change.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm fed up with other people trying to tell me what I may or may not do with my own head - my own mother is less censorious and she could be argued to have some sort of legitimate interest in the whole business.
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saikee,
If you had read my post correctly you would see that I suggested that a back protector may have helped my friend and not a helmet. The sentiment of my post was that minimum safety measures should be adopted by all. My reference to the pistes was that during my '7' day trip to Lech I found the blue pistes, which are traditionally described as 'beginner slopes' to be unsuitable for beginners. This was my third skiing trip and I don’t need to ski all over the world to know what type of slopes are suitable for beginners. Whether you like it or not, and I suspect you don’t judging by your condescending tone, the overall ski community comprises of quite a few 'beginners' who deserve the right to know whether or not a resort offers them the opportunity of manageable, safe and enjoyable skiing. Clearly you cannot predict the effects of weather and the moguls and grooves that occur as the day unfolds but in the main the gradient of a mountain slope doesn't change.
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I am just back from my trip to La Plagne/Les Arcs/Mont Chavin.
I went over there without a helmet and have never worn one.
Then when I realised that if I crashed on a motorcycle at the speeds I was travelling at that I would have more than grateful for a helmet I decided to pick one up.
Warm, comfortable, and even has built-in headphones so I can plug my i-pod in.
Should you be forced to wear a helmet? Depends on how bullet-proof you think you are.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BarryOS,
If you have tries enough resorts you will find Austria and Switzerland are not beginner friendly.
If Austrians go to learn skiing as beginners they would unlikely choose a large international resort like Lech because they are a lot of small local resorts which are much cheaper, more suitable and easier. These small Austrian resorts are not marketed to attract international skiers, not featured in the tour operators brochures and do not have the large number of undisciplined skiers/boarders as you would see in a popular resort.
A resort sets out to maximize its commercial interest could arrange the piste gradings to suit the main band of customers. Although I don't grade piste myself but I expect each grade to have a band of possibilities with a lower and upper limits. Like everything else the data can be massaged. Thus there is always an overlap between two slope grades permitting the grading to go either way. I have seen a French resort, marketed for being one with the most green pistes, with many green runs unsuitable for beginners. Since Austria has no green slopes it would seem rather pointless to me to complain their blue slope gradients unsuitable for the beginners.
My point is while your concern is genuine and your intention is noble they are also skiers who are in an authoritative position, have more experience, higher skill and wider exposures to the skiing risks for making judgements/recommendations on the subject of wearing a helmet.
Realistically you wouldn't expect a skier after doing 3 skiing trips to revolutionize the helmet-wearing habit of the skiing industry, would you?
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
| Warm, comfortable, and even has built-in headphones so I can plug my i-pod in. |
This is a stance I cannot understand: attenuating the severity of injury by wearing a helmet while increasing its likelihood by diminishing sensory input.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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laundryman, perfectly logical - if you're going to increase your risk of injury it would make sense to take steps to lessen its severity.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Lizzard, I suppose so: it's just that most helmet advocates wield elf'n'safety as a trump card (as you might expect). ISTM that cocooned in a helmet with music blasting away, you might as well use one of those arcade machines as actually ski.
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laundryman, possibly, but since when were people inclined to be rational? Especially the H&S loonies.
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You know it makes sense.
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I feel compelled to post on this one. Barry, I am sorry to hear about the tragic accident which has touched you personally however you are suffering from what is known as a "knee-jerk" reaction. This is a human emotion for similar to when a parent loses a child in a road acident and then calls for all speed limits to be lowered to 20mph everywhere. Its unrealistic and an unfortunately common place in our so called advanced society.
Part of free society along with free speech etc etc is the right of choice - for me to assess my own risk which I will do thank you very much.
As for seat belts in cars I would advise you to look at the big picture - i.e. NHS costs, Fines levied form non compliance etc etc. Speed cameras have the same stigma and levels of debate attached to them also.
I cannot wait to see the level of society when we have a series of clones unable to assess risk, for kids to climb trees, fat and overweight due to inherent risks that exercise or sports present.
Risk is part of life - just the same as death - Learn to live with it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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While I don't think helmets should become compulsory, for most people who wear them they're a convenient way of keeping their head warm. Adding a bit of protection at the same time is just another bonus. I can also understand non-helmet wearers getting sick of being told to wear one, but they often seem very vocal in dismissing the obvious benefits. Another observation in these threads is that there are often helmet converts who have decided to buy a helmet AFTER banging their head! Maybe that's the answer. Wait until you crack your head open and then buy a helmet. Mountain bikers often adopt this policy too, especially when it comes to full face helmets. "I knocked all my teeth out the other day, so I've decided to invest in a FF helmet". Assess your risk beforehand and make your own mind up. Then live with your choice.
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster,
Interesting comments.
So a skier wanting to keep his/her teeth has not only to buy a helmet but a full face one too?
Look a bit intimidating to see an adult with with full protection gear and helmet when learning to ski and competing for a drag lift with a group of kids on a nursery slope, if I may say.
I am quite happy to let Michigan resorts, as reported by OP, to run their course on making helmet wearing compulsory on their slopes. If skiers find no problem in packing helmets in the luggage to go there and want to ski among people with helmets in their heads and ipods in their ears then the resorts will gain business and decimate the business of the others. Time will tell what skiers want to choose.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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saikee, while sympathetic to your comments, I don't think the market will operate in Michigan in the way you describe. I can't imagine many going there expressly to ski: more a case of locals skiing the nearest hillock.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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laundryman,
| Quote: |
The_Hirsty wrote:
Warm, comfortable, and even has built-in headphones so I can plug my i-pod in.
This is a stance I cannot understand: attenuating the severity of injury by wearing a helmet while increasing its likelihood by diminishing sensory input.
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Do people not ski with personal music players sans helmet?
This is an argument that gets wheeled out from different forums I frequent all the time - self defence, cycling, running and now skiing - but is not that strong an argument.
Deaf people are allowed to ski, should they not be allowed to ski because they are disabled? I think you'll find that hearing is rather low down on the list of sense required on the piste.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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according to insurance companies skiing is a high risk sport, more so than horse riding and i would never get on a horse without a helmet so wearing one for skiing seems sensible too. Saying that i don't have one yet, i have a child size head so will no doubt need a kids one which seem to be more crash helmet style than the adult ski ones, but i haven't really looked around much. My kids will be wearing helmets from the off so they won't know any better but my husband is taking some convincing. As to weather to make it comulsory or not i don't know. Wearing a helmet for horse riding is not compulsory other than for those under 14 riding on the road and you will find the majority of riders in the US never wear or own a hat.
do you think i could just use my riding hat????? start a new trend
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| jonflat2 wrote: |
People can pull out the odd study or statistic which claims to prove that they aren't effective |
I am not going to enter into a long debate with any one on this just state my position having read around the subject.
We live in an age of evidence based medicine. Anecdotes such as "My mate would be dead if he didn't wear a helmet" are of no value. Proper published and peer reviewed studies are. May I commend you to look at http://www.ski-injury.com/helmet.htm it makes a good review of the published studies.
Most studies do show that helmets reduce head injury. Here is the but. The definition of head injury can extend from a bump or graze or laceration to irreversible brain damage.
The severity of the injury however is the important point and all of the evidence shows that helmets are very effective at protecting from minor head injury in the bump/graze/laceration end of head injuries. The risk of sustaining such an injury is relatively low compared to total skier numbers.
Most serious head injuries occur not through falls or skier/skier collisions but through collision with fixed objects (lift towers, machinery, trees etc.) in such collisions at velocities sufficient to cause serious head injury(death, brain damage) ski helmets are not effective.
This is a very telling quote from the above site:
"To give a stark example, biomechanics have demonstrated that in order to protect the head against a direct impact blow at 30 mph, with currently available materials, a helmet would need to be at least 18cm thick, 50cm wide and weigh 5kg+. Hhhmm….stylish. Radar data collected from ski areas suggests most intermediate skiers regularly travel at between 24-38 mph."
Having had two serious ski related injuries, one lower limb and one spinal I am well aware of the risks of skiing and would not belittle them . (In neither case would a helmet( or back protector) been of any benefit.)
My conclusion is helmets may be a good idea if you want to avoid minor injuries and there is a view that all reducible risks should be reduced but how far do you go? I can live with the small risk of a bump,graze or cut. What is clear from the evidence is that a ski helmet is not going to save my life or my brain in a major collision. So on balance I will not be buying or wearing one.
As for the style or vanity reasons, you should see how bad I look in my usual wooly hat! (I wear that to protect me from the serious and significant risk of skin cancer as may hair has disappeared at an alarming rate over the last few years) 
(And just for the seatbelt comparison they were made compulsory exactly because there was overwhelming evidence of the reduction of mortality and serious irreversible injury.)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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bloxy, Very nicely reasoned argument.
Thank you, BTW I feel for you regarding the hair situation, on the plus side, we will never suffer from helmet hair. 
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
| Deaf people are allowed to ski, should they not be allowed to ski because they are disabled? |
It's not anyone on 'my' side of the argument after banning anything.
| Quote: |
| I think you'll find that hearing is rather low down on the list of sense required on the piste. |
You've missed the point - which was that you'd have thought that people who were safety conscious would want to use all their senses to avoid hazard. I can tell you that people with ipods on bridleways generally cannot hear me approaching from behind on my bike and often will not hear 'excuse me, please' spoken at reasonable volume.
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| bloxy wrote: |
My conclusion is helmets may be a good idea if you want to avoid minor injuries and there is a view that all reducible risks should be reduced but how far do you go? I can live with the small risk of a bump,graze or cut. What is clear from the evidence is that a ski helmet is not going to save my life or my brain in a major collision. So on balance I will not be buying or wearing one.
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But what about the downhill racer a few weeks ago who smacked his head on the ice? How do you reckon he would have got on without a helmet?
If helmets only protect against minor bumps, why do racers even wear them at all?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| saikee wrote: |
uktrailmonster,
So a skier wanting to keep his/her teeth has not only to buy a helmet but a full face one too?
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You see FF helmets quite often in skiercross racing and increasingly by pro freeriders. In mountain biking I wear FF for downhilling, where the chance of a face plant on rocks is quite real. for recreational skiing, I feel the risk is much lower. So I just wear a normal open face ski helmet. As much to keep my head warm as anything else. I skied for 25 years without head protection and suffered one minor concussion, which I reckon a helmet would have prevented. It's your free choice to make.
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| charlichops wrote: |
| according to insurance companies skiing is a high risk sport, more so than horse riding |
The ski club policy (which is a just a rebadged general travel/sport policy) has skiing (including off-piste, ski touring and recreational racing) as 'Category 1' (i.e. the most benign), the same as general horse riding. Ski mountaineering and competitive ski racing is at Category 2. Show jumping is at Category 4 and hunting and polo are excluded altogether.
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FAQ
