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in /var/www/html/ski-forum/includes/xtrafunctions.php on line 3634 Snow and avalanche 2017/18 (3), snowHeads ski forum
Still at 3 here in Verbier but surely will go up today... i’ve never seen so much snow in the village!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Tirol Lawinenwarndienst warning of massive snow transport today (absolutely howling even in the valley where I am in Oberösterreich atm too) and sharply rising temperatures before more snow moves in. They signed off the report today with:
Quote:
Gale strength winds in the mountains will transport the snow massively. Creepy!
Wind slab on top of surface hoar/facets still a major problem (particularly in the Kitzbüheler Alpen and along the border with Bavaria), with a lot of skier triggered (and a few natural) slides reported yesterday.
Wind slab can be found on all slope aspects above 1600m, but ridge line terrain should be considered particularly suspect.
Next few days will be tricky!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
davidof wrote:
DB wrote:
Left in the flat area was the resting place. Straight after setting off by the entrance under the windblown ridge (max steepnes 30-32) was the break. Depth of break 20 to 60 cm. The ski poles mark the skier's entrance path. Triggered in the transition from little to a lot. Low additional load.
and the avalanche service highlighted a similar slide on the left. The area looks tricky with all those rollovers being potential trigger points, I guess there wasn't enough snow cover to take a different path down.
I know everyone has a degree in hindsight but I'm struggling to understand why they decided to descend a north facing slope. At times like these I stay well away from north faces. If there's been surface hoar the sun isn't going to get onto the north side and so the sun won't get chance to consolidate the layers. Does anyone have the tour sheet for this particular tour - if so what does it say about the avalanche risk?
Abfahrt
wie Aufstieg. Es bieten sich unzählige Variationen über die freien Almhänge an, jedoch ist die Lawinensituation kritisch zu prüfen. Auch die Abfahrt über die Rettenfeldalm bietet eine lohnende
Alternative.
Translation : Descent - Same route as the ascent. There are many variations open for the descent but the avalanche situation should be critically checked. A descent via the Rettenfeldalm offers a rewarding alternative.
Looks like they didn't descend the same way as the ascent but instead dropped into a steeper north facing slope. The original/standard route of descent has a less steep and more easterly facing slope.
The human factor is probably the most interesting, sometimes there are analysis published where they interview the survivors which give some insight.
In this case did the skiers consult the route information in any form or detail, or read the avalanche bulletin? I think a lot of time people take very superficial decisions about what to ski.
I remember publishing a trip report on one of those social ski touring websites. I'd skied a couloir, it was snowing heavily and kicked off a small soft slab which traveled down the couloir without harm, straight past my ski partner who hadn't seen the snow go past and refused to believe it had happened even when I pointed out the crown on the right bank above. Anyway it continued snowing during the day with wind blowing snow into the couloir. I mentioned this in the trip report and advised caution.
Next day I was surprised to see a trip report, the people had triggered a bigger avalanche and suffered bumps and bruises and lost gear, a ski or something from memory. They were whinging about my trip report so I said that I'd posted about the danger and the reply "oh we don't have time to read the details, when deciding where to go we just do a quick scan of the titles from the previous day". Probably the same people who take avalanche risks 1-3 to be a green light.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Here at least, we had a shallow snowpack with very cold temps, so faceting/ground-level hoar is likely to be an issue with the current dump? Prudence methinks.........
Freeride avi chart.
1/5 crap
2/5 crap
3/5 might get some
4/5 yeeehaaa powder day
5/5 shut
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@jbob, painted with a broad brush, but not far off!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Up to 4 in Verbier. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s 5 tomorrow if it keep going much longer 😳
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@BobinCH, I was told that they don’t like to call 4 let alone '5 in Verbier because it meant lots of properties had to be evacuated.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
KenX wrote:
Here at least, we had a shallow snowpack with very cold temps, so faceting/ground-level hoar is likely to be an issue with the current dump? Prudence methinks.........
It's a lot more complex than just air and snow temps
So, with Serre Che being mostly N facing, the variable will the winds prior to the current storm? Like the guy said, winds can vary greatly on a localised basis so will well be worth digging several pits once the current dump has stabilised?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
KenX wrote:
So, with Serre Che being mostly N facing, the variable will the winds prior to the current storm? Like the guy said, winds can vary greatly on a localised basis so will well be worth digging several pits once the current dump has stabilised?
Dig the pits, video it and share it here if you are motivated but bare in mind there can be a lot of variability across a slope.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@davidof, aware of the variance even on apparently identical slopes, and definitely motivated due to getting caught up in 3 near misses last season.........
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
KenX wrote:
@davidof, aware of the variance even on apparently identical slopes, and definitely motivated due to getting caught up in 3 near misses last season.........
I don't doubt it.
To some extent the high altitude rain (to 2000 m. tomorrow) should stabilize things a bit, once everything that it going to slide naturally does so.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
KenX wrote:
So, with Serre Che being mostly N facing, the variable will the winds prior to the current storm? Like the guy said, winds can vary greatly on a localised basis so will well be worth digging several pits once the current dump has stabilised?
As a hobby ski tourer, the more I get into avalanche awareness the more I realise I don't understand and that there's a lot more to know.
I was on another avalanche course last weekend and was lucky enough to have breakfast with the guy who used to be head of the avalanche warning service in Bayern (Germany). He had over 30 years of experience in this field and like many I was trying to determine the risk by asking simple questions. A bit like asking for relationship advice (possibly the only thing more complex than avalanches) by asking if I should stick with brunettes or switch to blondes for a better relationship.
I'm coming to the conclusion that simple scales and simple questions won't keep you out of trouble (short of staying at home nothing will although most accidents happen at home) but there are many things you can do to reduce the chances.
A pit will tell you something but the conditions vary all over the mountain, even on the same face. Mountains aren't blocks, there are more than 4 faces or expositions. Where the sun happens to hit the surface (e.g. a ridge) the snow could be bonded whereas the rest of the slope could be a trap.
Do you have to tour/Ski Serre Che, are there not other places with safer terrain when the conditions are tricky?
Where would you dig the pit? What terrain will you avoid? Are you following the avalanche reports and weather to build up a history of what could be under the snow?
Bad Gastein: 24-jähriger Eiskletterer starb nach Bergung aus Lawine
Bei den beiden Männern handelt es sich um zwei 24 Jahre alte Cousins aus Dorfgastein.
Laut Bergrettung war am Sonntag gegen 8.45 Uhr beim Federweißfall (etwa 180m hoch) eine Lockerschneelawine abgegangen. Eine Seilschaft mit zwei jungen, erfahrenen einheimischen Eiskletterern befand sich gerade am Einstieg in den Eisfall, bzw. befand sich der Seilführende in etwa zehn Metern Höhe.
Durch die Lawine wurden beide Eiskletterer mitgerissen. Der seilführende Kletterer wurde durch die Lawine gut 200 Meter weit noch einen Abhang hinunter mitgerissen und etwa einen Meter tief verschüttet.
Der zweite Kletterer kam leicht verletzt auf der Lawine zu liegen. Andere Eiskletterer, die das Unglück beobachtet hatten, begannen sofort mit der Suche nach dem verschütteten Dorfgasteiner.
Er hatte zwar kein Lawinenverschütteten-Suchgerät (LVS) bei sich, doch die Begleiter gruben dem Seil nach und konnten ihn nach etwa 15 bis 20 Minuten bergen. Durch die anwesenden Einsatzkräfte der Bergrettung Bad Gastein, samt einem Notarzt, wurde der 24-Jährige sofort reanimiert. Aufgrund der starken Nachlawinengefahr musste die Reanimation nach einer guten Stunde abgebrochen werden. Die Bergretter brachten den Toten per Universaltrage ins Tal.
Eine Bergung mit den anwesenden Rettungshubschraubern war aufgrund des Föhnsturms zu keiner Zeit möglich. Insgesamt standen 18 Badgasteiner Bergretter und drei Bergrettungshundeteams im Einsatz. Dazu das Rote Kreuz mit einem KIT-Team, Alpinpolizei (Libelle), die Rettungshubschrauber-Teams von C7 und Martin 1.
Salient Points
2 cousins both 24 years old.
Both hit by avalanche while ice climbing @ 8:45 today.
The lead climber was taken 200m and burried 1m deep
Second climber lightly injured.
Other climbers helped in the rescue.
He wasn't wearing a transceiver but they were able to follow the rope as they dug.
Dug out after approx 15 to 20 mins.
The emergency services tried to reanimate him for an hour sadly without success.
He was brought down on a stretcher as the strong warm winds (Föhn) prevented a helicopter rescue.
RIP
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 10-12-17 21:44; edited 2 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Tignes has just hoisted the black flag. Probably a very good thing.
Left in the flat area was the resting place. Straight after setting off by the entrance under the windblown ridge (max steepnes 30-32) was the break. Depth of break 20 to 60 cm. The ski poles mark the skier's entrance path. Triggered in the transition from little to a lot. Low additional load.
and the avalanche service highlighted a similar slide on the left. The area looks tricky with all those rollovers being potential trigger points, I guess there wasn't enough snow cover to take a different path down.
I know everyone has a degree in hindsight but I'm struggling to understand why they decided to descend a north facing slope. At times like these I stay well away from north faces.
I'm often surprised by how many people think 'sun/warm is bad and makes slopes avalanche = cold and shady must be good.'
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@DB, tbf, most of the touring we do here is on S oriented slopes which I know doesn't eliminate risks, but does increase one's chances somewhat....
That said, the one slide I triggered and rode out last year was S facing, just skied it a bit late in the day when it had warmed a little too much (hindsight)
It's the free riding which is mostly N facing in Serre Che, no point in living somewhere and only skiing there when conditions are perfect! Local knowledge does count for something, we get to see which slopes slide, watch the build-up of snow and follow wind effects etc..
Just want to become more aware of risk and do what I can to minimise it, never going to eliminate it I know!
And I take the point that we never stop learning.........
I'm often surprised by how many people think 'sun/warm is bad and makes slopes avalanche = cold and shady must be good.'
Yes many don't realise this (and neither did I until someone made me aware of it ) .....
Quote:
A cold snowpack tends to develop more persistent weak-layers than a warm snowpack A cold snowpack commonly develops notoriously fragile weak-layers such as facets and surface hoar. Largely because of this, the lion’s share of avalanche accidents occurs on north and east facing slopes, partly because that is where we find the best snow and people tend to trigger more avalanches there, but mostly because they exhibit more persistent weak layers.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@KenX,
Yes south facing slopes can present their risks too and I've also set off a wet avalanche in springtime. Learned that just because most of the group want to stay up and drink beer rather than meet a 5:30 start ("what time? we're on holiday") doesn't mean that that is the right thing to do - goes back to group dynamics. (see DP10 below)
Freeriding routes are different to less frequented touring routes as they are often avi controlled and as they are often tracked out the snow layers tend to be bonded together better.
I sometimes go ski touring alone during the week (work shifts), I specifically do well frequented routes with low risk (the terrain is low risk) for this reason.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 10-12-17 23:32; edited 1 time in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@DB, great set of short and to the point videos. Thanks.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Folk way overanalyze avalanches.
Just stay off North and East slopes in the pm above ~1800m and you'll dodge 60-80% of major slides.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@DB, thanks for the info! re graupel, I once dug a snow pit at Lake Louise to find out why the piste patrol had closed most of the runs and found a layer of it at the bottom of the snow pack about 20cm thick, it was like ball bearings and impossible to compress into a snowball by hand, incredibly dangerous.....
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
See this year they've moved the course back later which is good.
La Grave Monday 15th – Friday 19th January 2018 (5 days)
It's not just for Mountain Professionals, though they do make up 75% of the course.
Many on the course are young dudes hoping to be selected to go forward on the long journey to be a UIAGM Guide within the UK framework that exists that was managed by Bruce Goodlad, though don't know if that's still the case, but he certainly treated them like a Sergeant Major would to conscripts !!!
Most have an excellent climbing background but are not too capable on a set of skis
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I would break the problem down to focus on the principal dangers, unless you are out riding in all conditions no matter what the avalanche bulletin. In that case you are going to get caught out someday.
The most important problem is Persistant Weak Layers (PWL).
Natural avalanches occur when the snowpack overloads the bonds beneath - either due to fresh snow or rain as today or when the snow thaws and meltwater penetrates down into the base of the snowpack. They can occur on low angled terrain (10-15 degrees) but are slow moving, unless you are in a terrain trap you are unlikely to get caught. In the spring early starts before the sun hits slopes for too long when there has been a good overnight refreeze will limit the risk.
Skier triggered avalanches depend on a weak layer to give the snowpack some energy to slide. A slab weighs maybe hundreds of tonnes so the weight of a skier doesn't matter a great deal, it is a localized collapse in a weak layer that causes the slide. 90% of avalanche incidents are due to weak layers. This video by Alain Duclos shows the mechanism clearly
Something - a ski say, penetrates/activates the weak layer and causes it to collapse (like dominos if you like), this propagates across the weak layer giving the large slab the impetus. The deeper the weak layer is buried, the less likely you are to trigger it. The bad news is the snow depth is rarely even across a slope - rollovers, rocks, trees can all affect snow depth making it more likely to trigger a slide. Multiple skiers traversing a slope one by one can punch down to this layer (see the Ste Foy avalanche video). As can multiple skiers skiing close together, or falling etc (think about weaker skiers when you are managing groups).
The bad news is that even the most experienced expert cannot give you a yes or no answer as to whether a powder field is safe to ride with a couple of exceptions: the slope is under 30 degrees, physically it cannot slide, or the slope is just powder, for example after fresh snow at the start of the season or after a long anticyclone when the snow has transformed into gobelet (hoar) throughout its depth.
Weak layers such as fresh snow, graupel etc are not too worrying. They stabilize very quickly, within a day or so, so unless you are chasing storms you can avoid by sticking to low angled terrain. It is true that couloirs tend to auto-purge so are safer in the chute but topography is important (does the couloir have a funnel like structure at the entrance to channel slides?).
PWL: depth hoar, surface hoar, facets etc are the main cause of skier triggered avalanches. Caused by a steep difference in temperature in the snowpack (>10C/meter) they occur at the base, frequently where there are layers like crusts and near or on the surface where the air is cold (anticyclone). Surface hoar will grow on sunny aspects. They can persist from days to weeks after they have formed and can be reactivated by meltwater in the spring. Once buried deep enough, 50cm to 100cm it is much less of a problem. You may have more than 1 weak layer in the snow-pack and a small surface slide, which can still weigh several tonnes, can trigger a deeper slide. So the principal danger is on shaded aspects, west through north to north east or even wider in deep midwinter. Principally above 1800 meters in France, but lower in mid-winter. Unfortunately this is where you will find powder several days after a storm.
Avoidance: keep of slopes mentioned in the avalanche bulletin, keep to lower angled terrain when the risk is 3 or above. Avoid slopes known to avalanche regularly. Be very, very careful following any wind episode, particularly on the lee slopes but the wind is rarely constant at altitude so be wary on all aspects and remember cross loading. Wind and a PWL can produce avalanches in unlikely locations - often to the surprise of guides and ski instructors travelling their favourite trade route.
Ski tourers are particularly vulnerable. Try and climb via low angled routes, group spacing is important, avoid routes with steep slopes above (remote triggering). All are hard when the visibility is poor. Don't rely on airbags too much, they are not so effective for climbing skiers and are less effective in terrain where there are obstacles such as cliffs, trees etc (they tend to carry skiers further) and can be overwhelmed by avalanches typical on risk 4 days.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
foehn ate my son's igloo last night, we probably lost around 15-20cm of depth at 1300 meters. Luckily there is a bit of reserve this year.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@davidof, had a long chat with a guide mate this morning, based on what's occurred.
We were planning to go out this morning but decided that there will be other better days.
And talking about what current conditions mean for the snow pack.
In his words, "in the short term it complicates things, in the long term it could be good" but there is no exact answer...........
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain by Bruce Tremper is a good book to read on this topic, lots of information but light enough style to read casually. Very practical focus.
In his words, "in the short term it complicates things, in the long term it could be good" but there is no exact answer...........
unfortunately there rarely is an exact answer. High altitude rain followed by a freeze is helpful though although you often go directly from relatively stable conditions to sketchy conditions.
> Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain by Bruce Tremper is a good book
Yes it is. A lot of information in 200+ pages.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Another day, another avalanche alert:
Vigilance orange avalanche risk:
The Prefect of Haute-Savoie informs you of the orange avalanche risk vigilance. A
Great vigilance is recommended for motorists and skiers.
THE CURRENT SITUATION :
A very active disturbance approached France in the West Sunday morning accompanied by heavy rainfall, a marked redoux up to 2,000 meters altitude and stormy winds in the high mountains. Recent snow accumulations over the past 3 days are already substantial, ranging from 50 cm to more than 1 meter above 2000 meters altitude.
EXPECTED EVOLUTION:
The quantities of fresh snow from the episode expected from Monday night above 2000 meters are again of the order of one meter for Savoie, Haute-Savoie.
The interior massifs are concerned at the same time by heavy snowflows below 2000 meters of altitude (even 2400 meters at the end of night) and powdery departures higher. During the period, as precipitation continues, fresh snow avalanches will increase and some large avalanches may reach highways.
Strong to stormy winds at high altitude aggravate the risk by causing significant accumulations.
POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES:
Avalanche / Orange
* Very strong and high risk of avalanche.
BEHAVIOR ADVICE:
* Find out about the openness and condition of highways.
* Follow the instructions and safety instructions in force at ski resorts and mountain villages.
* Find out by consulting Météo France's specialized bulletins, local information and mountain professionals.
The Hautes-Alpes prefecture has advised against "any trip into the mountains due to the maximum avalanche risk and large amounts of fresh snow associated with a thaw and storm force winds at altitude. Large avalanches may cut roads or reach valley floors". The col du Lauteret is cut until further notice.
Worth checking your insurance cover if you are tempted anyway.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Tirol warning that we are currently 'at the upper limit of level 3' with an expectation that it will rise to 4 tomorrow:
The foehn storm is causing considerable avalanche danger (upper limit of level 3). As snowfall sets in during the day, the danger level will increase further still. The main hazard stems from fresh and older snowdrift accumulations which can be triggered even by minimum additional loading (the weight of one skier). Avalanche prone locations are found on steep slopes and ridgeline terrain in all aspects. Increasingly frequent naturally triggered avalanches of loose-snow and slabs can be expected. On steep grassy slopes, isolated gliding avalanches will also trigger naturally. It is strongly advised to not undertake backcountry skiing and freeriding tours.
Vorarlberg already calling level 4 above 2200m in the Arlberg and Montafon:
By this morning there was 5-10 cm of snowfall registered, up to 25 cm on Hochtannberg, amidst storm-strength to gale-strength S/SW winds, with gusts exceeding 120 km/hr. This led to ongoing and intensive snow transport. Exposed zones and crests are mostly bare of snow, completely windblown, The snowdrifts are accumulating on leeward steep slopes and in gullies and bowls. They are extremely prone to triggering. As temperatures rise and rainfall arrives, the snowpack will become moist up to neaerly 2000 m, thereby weakening it further. Yesterday, avalanches were caused by skiers, as well as artificially provoked by explosives.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Reports of a boarder being taken a few meters in Snowdonia yesterday. Luckily he was mostly unharmed except for bruises.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
Reports of a boarder being taken a few meters in Snowdonia yesterday. Luckily he was mostly unharmed except for bruises.
From British backcountry on Facebook.
“Out skiing in the Carneddau today, snow cover is ok for the views but not great for skiing, lots of grass sticking through still - I went to ski on the SSE steep section coming off Pen Yr Helgi Du where the wind loading had made some decent coverage - unfortunately it was a bit too windloaded and avalanched on about the 4th turn down, fracturing above me at the top of the slope and sweeping me off my feet instantly and down through some rocks. No major harm done except some bruises a broken phone screen and my poles are still up there buried somewhere. As I skied out the lower angled slopes below were collapsing under me too but too shallow to slide. Being in North Wales and with so much grass poking out everywhere I just didn’t have my avalanche head on but at least a not too painful lesson learned. (In the photo the debris is coming from the top left and I’m the dot lower down - thanks Phil for the picture)”
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) .....
