 Poster: A snowHead
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| miranda wrote: |
albinomountainbadger, yes, I pay income tax on my accommodation as a benefit in kind... you and your friends might not declare it, but some of us do as we are told by the French tax authority!
Whatever the detail, it's still a lot more expensive to hire on a French contract - the TOs surely aren't spending €635 a week per chalet host? |
ha ha, most definitely not!!
I was just providing the figures to illustrate what might happen if they did, and to show how unlikely it is that a TO would employ a French qualified guide on contract.
Although I suppose a TO boss would argue that they have to supply the package of lift pass, tatty old ski hire, six-in-a-room accommodation, easyjet flight to and from resort (without baggage paid), and minimum legal insurance cover. All which will conveniently come to the value of at least the equivalent to French minimum wage!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| miranda wrote: |
albinomountainbadger, yes, I pay income tax on my accommodation as a benefit in kind... you and your friends might not declare it, but some of us do as we are told by the French tax authority!
Whatever the detail, it's still a lot more expensive to hire on a French contract - the TOs surely aren't spending €635 a week per chalet host? |
ha ha, most definitely not!!
I was just providing the figures to illustrate what might happen if they did, and to show how unlikely it is that a TO would employ a French qualified guide on contract.
Although I suppose a TO boss would argue that they have to supply the package of lift pass, tatty old ski hire, six-in-a-room accommodation, easyjet flight to and from resort (without baggage paid), and minimum legal insurance cover. All which will conveniently come to the value of at least the equivalent to French minimum wage! |
Some TO's take that back direct from their staff under the title "Provision of Service".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is it the case that SCGB leaders and the people they lead are all (except for those having an introductory tour) members of the SCGB ?
If so are the SCGB benefitting from the different way clubs and associations are treated in Frace compared to commercial companies ?
The leaders are effectively not being remunerated directly by the people who they are skiing with. Indeed, as Comedy Goldsmith points out, they may be supported by club members who will never ski with them.
I think someone has already pointed out that French ski clubs can have people to Shepherd their members round the mountain without falling foul of the law.
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thirty06, The SCGB invites non-members to ski with their 'leaders' in the hope of recruitment . . . I'd say that falls straight into the same hole the TOs are in.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Actually non-members no longer have a 'taster day' - rather they are welcome to take a one-day temporary membership. I suspect a perhaps subtle but important difference.
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Nothing yet . . . .
I suspect the Tea Club has been working very hard in the background (ie. behind the back of everyone else) to protect themselves and kneecap the other defendants.
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It will be interesting to see how this affects holiday bookings. Do enough people consider it part of their holiday that they switch their package to Austria. Lets remember these are package holiday skiers so they are flying and putting a lot of faith in a TO and are probably flexible and not fussed on where they ski.
I really do hate the French.
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Fattes13, I like the French and have some sympathy for their position . . . not a complete fanboi though. I do suspect that next year will see a move away from France, my guess anything up to 10% especially given a memory of the incredible skiing throughout all areas this year . . . Andorra may suffer because of the closures.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque,
I have suffered at the hands of the ESF who accused me once of teaching while on the mountain, I was skiing with my wife and we are both instructors!!!
I laughed the ESF guy off but soon meet with the local constabulary! It would have been funny if it was not such a farce and they were not so serious about it! Meanwhile in every other nation I have ever skied I have had great conversations with local instructors about differing techniques and methods and have found them welcoming and warm
They are shooting themselves in the foot here and I can’t see it lasting long, under EU rules it is protectionism just nobody wants to deal with it.
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Fattes13, I agree the ESF needle is out for 'furiners' teaching . . . I suspect it's become much worse with the influx of qualified instructors from other countries setting up businesses. There's no doubt the ESF has suffered considerable economic harm and loss of prestige from 'legitimate' competition and are lashing out by proxy at anybody that they can conceivably describe as a threat to their business. I think they've shot their balls off let alone their foot as I'm sure that every UK TO will be talking with every school not the ESF for future referrals for their guests.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
They are shooting themselves in the foot here and I can’t see it lasting long, under EU rules it is protectionism just nobody wants to deal with it. |
^This.
Maybe all the TOs will pull together and take it to the European Court if today's judgement goes against them?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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sequoiaboard, I suspect that is what may happen, sadly like the test technique ruling previously the ESF will figure someway around it.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| sadly like the test technique ruling previously the ESF will figure someway around it. |
What ruling?
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You know it makes sense.
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> I have suffered at the hands of the ESF who accused me once of teaching while on the mountain, I was skiing with my wife and we are both instructors!!!
Sounds very odd, there is nothing to stop anyone teaching their wife, friends or kids on the mountain
> I do suspect that next year will see a move away from France, my guess anything up to 10%
I doubt that very much. I doubt it will make any measurable difference.
> Maybe all the TOs will pull together and take it to the European Court if today's judgement goes against them?
You can only take a direct action to the European Court in very limited cases. I don't think this is one of them. They will have to appeal up the court chain to the French Supreme Court then go to Europe. Today's judgement will only form very weak jurisprudence so they (TOs) may not want to risk that and may prefer to keep operating as they have been doing and getting caught by occasional crackdowns.
> I think someone has already pointed out that French ski clubs can have people to Shepherd their members round the mountain without falling foul of the law.
They can have people teach but often work with the ESF. The important thing is they are not paid to do this. TO reps are. Ski Club reps probably not. As others have said, the court case could be positive for the Ski Club.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| sequoiaboard wrote: |
| Fattes13 wrote: |
They are shooting themselves in the foot here and I can’t see it lasting long, under EU rules it is protectionism just nobody wants to deal with it. |
^This.
Maybe all the TOs will pull together and take it to the European Court if today's judgement goes against them? |
I'm not so sure they will have the stomach for that at the moment. Far easier just to pull hosted skiing in France and advertise its benefit in other countries with a more pragmatic approach and less protectionist mindset.
IMHO, of course.
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Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward,An BASI instructor took the ESF to the European Court and won a few years back re the Test Technique & the restrictions they place on foreign instructors (under the freedom of Labour or something) & won, but ESF accepted the ruling and moved the goal post a few days later so the subverted the judgment via the back door. Can remember the exact details but there is a thread here on it somewhere.
Chasseur, I think you may have hit the nail on the head there it will be a mix of all of the above covered by Masque, & myself have covered a mix of TO ensuring they use anyone but the ESF, customers who want guiding choosing resorts in other countries or TO finding another loop hole that allows business to continue as usual.
It is all a bit silly but typical of the ESF, instead of offering the best and competitive service we will use all other means to stifle competition. I actually don’t think the guiding service is competition to the ESF.
davidof, The reality is the people that use this service are TO package customers not hard-core resort specific skiers. TO customers will take cheap packages to snowsure resorts and may actually think the guiding service is important part of what they are paying for. It is less than 20 years since Austria was the country of choice for British skiers and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it could be again. The TO seem to think it will impact on the holidays they sell to France.
I know at least 4 instructors who have experienced what I did in France and I have witnessed the head of a BASS school being carded at a lift by the Police so it is more common than you think
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| stewart woodward,An BASI instructor took the ESF to the European Court and won a few years back re the Test Technique & the restrictions they place on foreign instructors (under the freedom of Labour or something) & won, but ESF accepted the ruling and moved the goal post a few days later so the subverted the judgment via the back door. Can remember the exact details but there is a thread here on it somewhere. |
If you are Danish or Belgium, allegedly, you can get a 'Levere de Formation' after passing your ISIA but do not need test Technique. Why do BASI members need Test Technique?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Toast . . . hosting banned . . . no word yet on the Tea Club
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The ESF though decided not to abandon the court case and we have seen a copy of the email from the ESF to the British Tour Operators informing them of that decision.
"Concerning the actions that begun with the French authorities concerning ski hosting, we are unfortunately, not in a position to change our decision. We realise the consequences that this will incur but the SNMSF's position in relation to the French law on the subject cannot allow us to simply withdraw from the matter.
We realise that many of you go to great lengths concerning safety within your companies but we consider that this type of activity in general could create problems and is contrary to the efforts being made in France by the resorts to reduce the number of accidents on the slopes."
The email came from the Director General of the Syndicat National des Moniteurs de Ski Francais, Jean-Marc Simon. |
http://www.planetski.eu/news/4683
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So it's quite simple - if you previously enjoyed ski hosting and hoped to go again in France, go into the ESF Office in resort, book a weeks' ski lessons for all your party.....and then when the time comes to get out your credit card say "Wait, didn't the ESF collude in stopping TO ski hosting, I've changed my mind".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Toast . . . hosting banned . . . no word yet on the Tea Club |
Not really suprised but 'Planet ski's' article says
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| leaders of organised groups must be fully qualified |
So how are stagieres going to work? I think a copy of the actual judgement is required
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SHOCKING DECISION!
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stewart woodward, usual can of dead worms. I now suspect the ESF will offer an 'economic' service to the TOs to keep those stagieres busy in the down times. I still think there may be a hint of a business opportunity in this. Lots more to come out yet and Crystal is saying it will appeal.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| SHOCKING DECISION! |
AS IN BEING COMPLETELY PREDICTABLE! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No surprise, let's see what the judgement say... maybe along the lines of "The ESF is to provide a course to ensure hosts are trained up to standard" ... just maybe. 
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Of course Crystal is saying it will appeal. But only as a PR exercise IMV. Max the publicity and then use resultant marketing (and possibly leverage) to a) increase punter flow to other countries and b) squash purchasing costs on the accommodation owners in France, sighting the selfish ESF for driving away clients and the need to drop prices to maintain business in France
Well, that's what I would do....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well this is going to get interesting really quickly, any, below is Article 49 FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL - Chapter 2: Right of establishment - Article 49 (ex Article 43 TEC) from the EU.
Article 49
(ex Article 43 TEC)
Within the framework of the provisions set out below, restrictions on the freedom of establishment of nationals of a Member State in the territory of another Member State shall be prohibited. Such prohibition shall also apply to restrictions on the setting-up of agencies, branches or subsidiaries by nationals of any Member State established in the territory of any Member State.
Freedom of establishment shall include the right to take up and pursue activities as self-employed persons and to set up and manage undertakings, in particular companies or firms within the meaning of the second paragraph of Article 54, under the conditions laid down for its own nationals by the law of the country where such establishment is effected, subject to the provisions of the Chapter relating to capital.
There is also Directive 2006/123/EC of 12 December 2006 on services in the internal market,
It will be really interesting to see how this goes a drop in the business of the ESF school in the relevant village next year would really lead to some tough questions.
If you wanted to be really silly and extend the logic of the ESF Piste Maps should be banned!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Chasseur, i really don't think the ski hosting is that much of a booking driver.
We have around 350 clients a year, albeit self catering and none ever benefit from hosting - i suspect few frequent the ESF either.
I don't see this affecting my business whatsoever.
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Chasseur, MY feeling is as much as the hosting is liked and it is there will be little the TO's will do as France is where all the eggs are. They may look to move out but I would think it would be cost saving* rather lack of hosting. It will take a few years to build up the same level of chalets in another country.
* I believe the next French step will be to go after the chalet hosts on the grounds of breaking French employment laws and in that case that will drive the TO's out.
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You know it makes sense.
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under a new name, it was ever so slightly tongue in cheek...but I would expect Crystal, as a major player, to maximise the publicity.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| * I believe the next French step will be to go after the chalet hosts on the grounds of breaking French employment laws and in that case that will drive the TO's out. |
Hmmmm . . . not sure they'd be that crazy, but if they did it would make an interesting court case.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think I posted about http://www.skifriends.be/ before. They offer hosting and some of their hosts in L2A are dreadful both at skiing and group management. This should apply to them too but then the French don't dislike Belgians quite as much (do they?).
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 18-02-13 18:04; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I for one see ski hosting as a fairly important (not deal breaker) element of my choice in booking. As a dad with a wife that doesn't ski and kids in lessons in the am and no family friends that ski, I find ski hosting a good way of skiing with others at a similar level without trying to force myself on anyone the night before in the chalet / hotel. It's a real shame that this decision has been amde and I for one hope the ESF / the authorities / British tour OPS find a way round this.
I was looking forward to my Esprit hosting in Val d'Isere in March!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Claude B, These are the Dutch speaking Belgique . . . so perhaps not.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Masque, One of easiski's pet hates, many a good rant about them 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| No surprise, let's see what the judgement say... maybe along the lines of "The ESF is to provide a course to ensure hosts are trained up to standard" ... just maybe. |
Have to wait until tomorrow
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The court will give the reasons for its decision tomorrow, Tuesday.
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| Chasseur wrote: |
| Of course Crystal is saying it will appeal. |
Crystal cannot appeal, they are not a party to the prosecution AFAIKS. Le Ski can appeal but I think the boss has already shot himself in the foot by (according to the Peanutski.eu article) claiming the French courts are biased and always find for the locals.
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| "As we expected the court in Albertville has taken the side of the locals and the protectionist agenda of the ESF. We will be appealling and the case now goes to a court in Chambery. The fight goes on and we will take this all the way," |
I would imagine the Chambery court would take note of his opinion and probably increase any penalty on appeal. Best to keep your mouth shut if you want to appeal a decision.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Lots more to come out yet and Crystal is saying it will appeal. |
Masque where did that come from?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque, no worries 
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| Toast . . . hosting banned . . . no word yet on the Tea Club |
Not really suprised but 'Planet ski's' article says
| Quote: |
| leaders of organised groups must be fully qualified |
So how are stagieres going to work? I think a copy of the actual judgement is required |
I imagine the court has simply confirmed the current legislation in force which allows for stagieres.
Contrary to what has been written, this isn't an important test case. If le Ski appeal and it goes to the Cour de Cassasation then it will be, or even Europe.
The only way le Ski will win on appeal is to introduce and have accepted some European legislation. They'd better find a more competent lawyer than the one thay had at Albertville whose defense (from what I read in the Dauphine Libere coverage) was never going to fly. They'll need someone from Paris who specializes in European law.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 18-02-13 19:19; edited 2 times in total
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FAQ
