 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hey presto the minute the snow starts falling the benefits are obvious...........
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Where is this?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Flaine - Grand Massif, although it's great at the moment as these runs remained shut well into January last year it won't look too pretty in the summer!!
It's a 2 year project costng quite a bit of money to ensure Flaine gets the early season bookings, to be honest I thought it would trigger a little more debate with the snowheads community. Although Flaine gets quite a bit of stick for ugly buildings the actual valley is beautiful and a walk to the top to look at Mt Blanc in summer is a fine day out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This is a good shot - I drive on roads with more bumps!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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NorthWestFace, Is that a brand new run or a rework of an existing one. I have not skied at Flaine for a long time and I am trying to recall the positions of the runs down from there. IIRC there used to be a red or two where your pictures show.
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NorthWestFace, this is no different to any other kind of land management - farmers, foresters, etc. modify the land to suit their purposes. I can see no reason why ski resorts should be any different.
In VT, the advantages are clear - pistes exist in places that wouldn't be possible without careful grading of the surface. Most large resorts do this.
This year in VT it was easy to see where similar work has been done - but heavy snow over the past couple of days has prevented me from posting effective pictures. Whatever, sensible ground maintenance is much more cost effective and ecologically sound than unnecessary use of snow cannons.
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CP,
Faust
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Alastair,
I am far from an EcoWarrior but what do you think of the third option that you have not mentioned in your post i.e. wait until enough snow arrives to cover the natural landscape!
Doing this is going to let the upper rocky slopes of Flaine open a few weeks earlier while the rest of the Grand Massif already has fine depths on grassy slopes. For the first half of Jan last year we had very little open high up in Flaine but Les Carroz, Samoens and Morrlion all had great skiing.
Do you ever go to the Alps in the summer?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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NorthWestFace, unfortunately commercial interests require that the season is as long as possible. What I am suggesting is that decent grading of the slope surfaces is preferable to excessive snow cannon use. They have a similar effect.
Yes, I've been in VT in the summer - it's not anything like as attractive in the summer as it is in the winter, but the grading of the surface is far from objectionable.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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NorthWestFace, my response was posted before I saw your PS. The basics remain the same - if we want a long ski season this will be achieved by either modifying the surface or generating artificail snow. Neither are ideal, but in the mega-resorts of the French Alps a combination of the two is used to create a profitable environment; this must be in the interests of the industry as a whole.
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Alastair,
Do you not have any reservations about this whatsoever? I am not employed in the industry but i am sure a profit would still be made without doing this, the laws of Supply and Demand would sort it out - would it not?
On a slightly different note what about the runs! are we not going to end up with a load of motorway like easy pistes rather than the real and varied terraine of the mountain. The run above has changed significantly.
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You know it makes sense.
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NorthWestFace, Of course I have reservations - but I believe that the industry is going in the only logical direction. Yes, we'll end up with loads of 'motorway' pistes but on the whole these shouldn't prevent the construction of other pistes, and should represent what the customer wants. All in all, I accept your concerns about the reshaping of the mountains - but don't accept it's any worse than the damage done by farmers in their own interests.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Alastair,
Not sure I agree with your Farmer analogy - if a farmer stops farming tomorrow we will have no trace in a matter of a few years, this activity in the Alps will be evident in thousands of years from now! Like I say if they tried to do this in the Lake District i don't think that more profit would win the argument.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I was at Flaine in the first week of February and remember thinking that it was odd that the Faust run seemed to just break through the escarpment, while the black (Diabolo?) under the gondola had to wiggle down a gully (and was roped off for the week, despite being quite doable).
I think Flaine has a nasty rep for big holes early in the season and keeping punters on piste near the top ridge is quite a priority.
Great resort though, ugly maybe but no worse than your average summer package resort.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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NorthWestFace, the activity in the Alps in terms of piste grading certainly won't be visible thousands of years from now. Minor modifications to the countryside, whether we are talking about the Englsh Countryside or the French Alps, are short term modifications which will have no long term effect on the local countryside. We are only talking about a minor short term modification.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Alastair,
Can you have a look at the pic in the first post again and explain how this won't be visible? natural erosion? I really can't see how!
A heated debate is currently underway in the area around the Giffre about this work, especially regarding the long term implications. At the end of the day these mountains have been around for 15million years and if we are going to change them we should not kid ourselves that it's similar to what farmers do in the English Countryside.
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NorthWestFace, are you saying the coutryside in the lake District is entirely natural? I think not. If anything, the effect sin the lake district are far more widepsread - walls don;t build themselves...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Alastair wrote: |
| NorthWestFace, Of course I have reservations - but I believe that the industry is going in the only logical direction. Yes, we'll end up with loads of 'motorway' pistes but on the whole these shouldn't prevent the construction of other pistes, and should represent what the customer wants. |
You can't take the behaviour of a few French mega resorts as the "industry" norm'.
| Alastair wrote: |
| All in all, I accept your concerns about the reshaping of the mountains - but don't accept it's any worse than the damage done by farmers in their own interests. |
The pictures above look a bit more than the average upland farmer manages to me.
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| NorthWestFace wrote: |
Alastair,
A heated debate is currently underway in the area around the Giffre about this work |
That's why the CdA is known as Cancer des Alpes. As you say this work will be visible for tens of thousands of years. It is a scar on the landscape and, to be honest, a bloody disgrace. But the CdA and its parent the CDD have always been interested in profit beyond any moral considerations.
With the weakening of the national park legislation things do not look to be getting better on an environmental level in France.
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None of the English countryside is "natural" these days, even the forests are managed.
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What does that machine do? it doesnt look like any grader I have seen, more like a pile driver. I also agree that it is a disgrace to scar the countryside like this. Ski lifts are ugly enough as it is. Pasture piste IMHO looks delightful and even adds to the countryside.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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nbt,
Stone Walls in the lake district is one thing but not really comparable - What is comparable is if a private company tried to do this to the side of Helvelyn or down the side of Crib Goch in Snowdonia. You know and I know that it just wouldn't happen and the backlash to any such proposal would be enormous -even if it meant we could go skiing!
Kramer,
Are the Forests not now managed to ensure sustainability, again I don't think this is really comparable.
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I think it's a drill used to place charges for blasting rock. They've certainly blasted a huge scar on the mountainside. Terrible.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Kramer, by and large the English countryside has been managed sympathetically over the centuries. The pictures look like a dreadful scar. I'd rather rock-hop or stay at home than ski a motorway piste that involves as much scouring as a real motorway.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kuwait_ian,
Yes you don't make that sort of damage without a bit of Plastic!
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| Quote: |
the coutryside in the lake District is entirely natural? I think not. If anything, the effect sin the lake district are far more widepsread - walls don;t build themselves...
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and they don't stay built and visible for very long. Come up to Scotland and see what remains after the highland clearances. An example (of how fast walls can disappear) close to me is Bennachie. IARC there were several families farming/crofting below Bennachie who were forced off the lnad from the 1850s - by rising rent. The last was abondoned as late as the 1950s. There is little to be seen except the carefully preserved foundations of one cottage. I think there would be liitle to be seen of walling in the lake district and elsewhere after a couple of hundred years of no management. I reckon those pistes will be scars for a long long time.
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You know it makes sense.
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All,
To be honest I was a little worried at the content / lack of initial posts and what appeared to be a lack of concern about this subject, I am now happy to say that this mornings posts are very welcome and I think only prove that the case for doing this doesn’t really exist.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| NorthWestFace wrote: |
| I think only prove that the case for doing this doesn’t really exist. |
While I would like to think you were right, the true test is if people stop going to Flaine in protest over the environmental damage being done in their name.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar.org.uk,
It's a good point but any protest would have to be communicated effectively and media coverage given! I wonder if the Ski Club of Great Britain, Daily Mail Ski mag etc are even aware of the issue, or even the ski correspondents for the Weekend Papers? Got to be a story in this for them!
Anyone got names / email addresses I could post a forum link to????
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith might well have some suitable contacts and I think is involved with an SCGB Environmental section.
Filling in a few holes (if that is the problem they were trying to overcome?) would probably have been acceptable. Blasting a graded track on an exposed mountainside is not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kuwait_ian wrote: |
| Filling in a few holes (if that is the problem they were trying to overcome?) would probably have been acceptable. Blasting a graded track on an exposed mountainside is not. |
I agree with that. I don't have a problem with minor grading works, but chewing up the mountainside to create a piste where the terrain is obviously unsuitable seems way OTT in my opinion.
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Rob I wasn't really thinking of any grading so much as just pouring some concrete into the holes and maybe removing a few of the bigger rocks. From a distance that would be invisible. I believe parts of Flaine's terrain are notorious for dangerous deep holes that can trap the unlucky. Haven't seen them myself. I skied there years ago and stuck firmly on piste. I think they are mainly dangerous for off piste sliders. Anyone know?
What they seem to have achieved is a much gentler slope - perhaps a blue when it would have been a red - which will need very little snow to be useable. But they've done it with all the subtlety of a turd in a swimming pool.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kuwait_ian, I was thinking along the lines of perhaps changing the profile where two pistes intersect, to ease traffic flow or maybe reduce skiers' speed. I think this is a different order of magnitude from the work we can see in these photos, where cliff edges are blasted flat to create a whole new piste down a slope which is not suitable.
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rob@rar.org.uk, kuwait_ian,
It's definitely the later of the two scenarios, the Flaine bowl is full of deep holes which make thinks dangerous off piste especially early season. These holes could be filled to make off piste safer or to create new pistes but this is not what is happening.
On the David Goldsmith front I am sure he would know some contacts, don't know anything about him but the information / knowledge he and a few others who post on here have it’s mind-boggling.
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NorthWestFace, G'day - another local 
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| kuwait_ian wrote: |
Filling in a few holes (if that is the problem they were trying to overcome?) would probably have been acceptable. Blasting a graded track on an exposed mountainside is not. |
Strangely, I feel the opposite. I don't mind grading of runs - but I do object to filling holes with concrete.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I saw someting like this in LDA a few weeks back at the PSB. The machine work was evident as it wasn't snow covered at the time and they have bulldozed very neat and flat runs which had a type 1 base. They had mashed the rocks and it was almost road like.
I must admit I didn't like to see it and was looking for lines through the natural terain. I am not sure where I stand here. I guess I would prefer to keep development of new pistes to a minimum but then I don't really use them so its a kind of 'I'm all right jack' type attitude.
Ideally I would like to see more resorts just have a basic lift upto an point and you choose your way down, no pistes, no grading and no manitenance costs, or vastly reduced piste bashing type costs because there would be no pistes.. But how far do you go...don't build the lifts and hike everywhere. ??
A bit eletiist and the business wouldn't stand for it...nor would most private property owners. I don't know what the answer is but I think my preference would be to do less building not more...or at least reduce the growth rate...
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Here is the result: First Day of the season and they manage to open this run at 2500m on what was very rocky terrain - looks like they might need some blue paint for the poles!
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