 Poster: A snowHead
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Dwarf Vader, a very good description of La Rosiere. Our neighbour here in Durham has a friend whose sister is married to one of La Rosiere's instructors, they now own a rather nice chalet there.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Have to say, I am with the French on this one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Have to say, I am with the French on this one. |
On what grounds?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| martinm wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Have to say, I am with the French on this one. |
On what grounds? |
Good ones.
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I see in that article the ESF in Meribel are claiming €12k damages. I don't recall seeing this mentioned before in this thread.
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emwmarine, oh, ok, bias and vested interest then
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So good you can't remember them then 
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BUMP
I just picked up on this topic after it was reported on BBC Radio a couple of days ago. I've tried to read this entire thread and have enjoyed some of the comments from people on the instruction qualification ladder and those with vested interests in their employment in France.
The burning question in this thread is that of Ski Hosting and its legal status. Back in the 80's and early 90's most companies had 'ski guides' but because of pressure from the French most changed the title to 'ski host' to avoid the use of a legal construct. Even then the guide/host was not an instructor, no off piste etc just as today. Like many here I had friends arrested and fined for "Teaching". Following in a snake was actively discouraged to avoid any semblance of instruction.
I have used many of these hosting services, not for any form of instruction or guiding, but as a way of getting sociable skiing with like minded individuals. Most I have seen have been competent skiers with reasonable social skills and have helped a solo skier have a lot of fun.
Do they really know the resort? Probably better than the person who has just turned up in the resort for the first time and the better ones are usually on their second or third season in the same resort. Especially true for those who travel in February or March when the host has had time to learn the regular routes.
Should there be a formal qualification for hosts? I don't see why not. Some on piste and classroom instruction on the skiers code and the way around the resort with a simple test at the end would definitely help some young skiers and improve slope safety. It's probably no more than a few days and could have a limited life of say 3 years to encourage the host to work for more than 1 season and having the certificate would make you more employable. Maybe a skiing competence test(e.g. ESF level 3 or equiv) but not a teaching ability.
Now do I have a contract for the services of the ski host, that's an interesting question? It's not seen as a primary requirement when I travel and It's not something I deem that I have specifically paid for. Would I expect a discount if it wasn't offered probably not and would I still travel with the same TO probably. The beginners who do take instruction and others who don't use the hosting, don't get a discount from the TO and can be cancelled without recompense, so is it part of my formal contract with the TO? Interesting legal point which I'm not qualified to answer.
Is hosting illegal in France? By strict interpretation of the current laws possibly. Should it be illegal? Almost certainly not. Should it be regulated probably but NOT as some form of instructor or mountain guide qualification.
I've been skiing for almost 30 years met good and bad instructors both in the UK and in France. The ESF approach may not be the best but it works for some. My private lessons with the ESF have always been useful and have not been a simple case of "Follow me". I also know people who ski every year, take lessons every year, never seem to improve but enjoy the sociable side of skiing in a group of similar ability.
I've been a dry slope instructor but could never have passed the speed test to teach in France. I'll never be a racer and probably never a great off-piste skier but I have fun and still take lessons to try and improve before old age finally makes me slow down and stick to motorway cruising.
I think 1 or 2 of the contributors here should chill out a bit and remember that most of the members are recreational skiers not professionals even if they do ski more than a few days a year.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| Should there be a formal qualification for hosts? I don't see why not. Some on piste and classroom instruction on the skiers code and the way around the resort with a simple test at the end would definitely help some young skiers and improve slope safety. It's probably no more than a few days and could have a limited life of say 3 years to encourage the host to work for more than 1 season and having the certificate would make you more employable. Maybe a skiing competence test(e.g. ESF level 3 or equiv) but not a teaching ability. |
When I worked for Crystal 2 seasons ago, ski escorting was part of the role. So as part of that we had classrom training modules associated with on-piste safety (delivered by BASI), classroom avalanche lessons (given by Henry's Avalanche Training) and also a day of "hosting" training which was delivered by BASI instructors on the slopes of Tignes, which had some form of pass/fail aspect to it including a skiing competence component. So it does happen.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just a news point on this (also made on the related thread about the ESF flashmob in London that never flashed): the court action by the ESF against the UK tour operator Le Ski, concerning their ski-hosting activities, is due to take place tomorrow in France.
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Just a few comments to clarify the Snowsport Scotland Ski Leader role. I did this qualification in 1989 to lead school groups, mainly in Scotland, but also on school trips abroad and the local dry slope were happy for Ski Leaders to help with instruction of school groups on the dry slope. When we went abroad we always used the local ski school for 2 hours of instruction for each pupil per day and they were happy for us to 'lead 'the remaining pupils for the rest of the day - half the kids with instructor/half the kids with school staff, swap over at lunch. This happened in France as well as Italy and Switzerland. For the last 15 years however the school have gone to Italy with Interski who have their own (mainly BASI) ski school. I'm retired now but my old school are in Italy at the moment with Interski.
Can also confirm the Crystal training of their 'hosts' as ski instructor sons have been involved with BASI pre-season assessment and some potential hosts did not pass. Some training is vital so you understand how to work with a group, especially people you don't know. I often see groups stop in completely inappropriate places, blocking the piste, and its not always just groups of friends who do this! PLEASE ALL THINK BEFORE YOU STOP! It was easy with school pupils as I knew them all from dry slope skiing before I ever took them on snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have done a few familiarisation mornings and there has never been a fee, never been any pressure for me to attend, never been any pressure for me to do pistes that would be beyond my (then) ability.
What they have often shown is the safest, easiest way back to the hotel and for that they have been welcome.
Wayne, it's clear you want to maximise your income but this one is working against you. Many people do value being shown around a resort and will go elsewhere if the ESF win.
As for CRB checks for doing this... really???? Does a waiter at a mountain side restaurant need a CRB check to serve food to someone's kids? Does he need to have been on a first aid course??
The ESF are fighting this as they would like to do the familiarisation and be paid for it, nothing else. There are certainly no safety issues that they feel the public need to be protected from.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's a point I think needs clarifying. It is not a case of saying to a host - here's a group no get on the slopes.
I have hosted with two different TO's and they both did initial training as to customer service and how to ski the slopes with customers. I imagine that all the TO's do this. So there is some training, but nothing beats experience.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The judge is out. Judgement expected Feb 18
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| feef wrote: |
| The judge is out. Judgement expected Feb 18 |
The start of half-term !! Maybe we should have a flash-mob outside his chambers
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Did anyone go along? Any feedback on how well the cases were presented?
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Not looking good.
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The British company Le Ski has appeared in court in France as the authorities try to end ski hosting. Signs are not good and it will have implications for all the other British Tour operators that offer hosting to guests. Judgement will be given next month.
Le Ski has been operating for 30 years in the French Alps.
In recent years it, along with many other companies, it has been offering its guests familiarisation tours of the slopes. The holidaymakers are not taken off piste or on difficult runs, but rather shown the local slopes and the best mountain restaurants.
The French state, in close collaboration with the Ecole de Ski Francais, is now trying to put a stop to it on safety grounds saying the hosts are not properly qualified under French law to take organised groups on the slopes.
They claim safety is compromised.
On Monday this week, during a 4-hour hearing, a judge at court in Albertville listened to both sides of the argument.
Le Ski put up a robust defence but is not optimistic of winning in the local court. |
Full article http://www.planetski.eu/news/4553
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Hardly unexpected though. Problem being exactly those last two words, 'local court'. Someone impartial needs to decide this, ECHR or whatever. If a judge in Albertville decided against the ESF, over half his family would no longer speak to him and he'd have burning cows in his garden for the rest of his life.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 9-01-13 19:47; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This could be very interesting for those thinking of gaining a mid level Instruction qualification and the TT in France. If the TO's still want staff who can show their guests around the mountain, would have to pay a reasonable stipend for once. Or an individual(s) may offer a freelance service of not teaching just hosting/leading for a number of TOs.
This may be a new business opportunity . . .
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albinomountainbadger, Free BBQ  yummy
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Masque wrote: |
This could be very interesting for those thinking of gaining a mid level Instruction qualification and the TT in France. If the TO's still want staff who can show their guests around the mountain, would have to pay a reasonable stipend for once. Or an individual(s) may offer a freelance service of not teaching just hosting/leading for a number of TOs.
This may be a new business opportunity . . . |
Ha ha, the TOs would offer them board and lodging and 50quid a week pay!
I'm not sure what a mid-level qualification is, but an ESF instructor in Courchevel can ask 400€ a per day if hired privately, which is what skiing exclusively with a TO group would be, so either your new instructor would have to be prepared to lose a lot of potential income or the TOs would have to charge guests to use the service...
p.s. Yes BBQ would be nice but on reflection I don't think anyone in Albertville has a garden!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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albinomountainbadger, Getting into teach with the ESF may not be an option and if the qualified host was freelance he/she/it/they could make a comfortable income on far less than 400 a day. Of course this may all be moot but at the minute I see a potential market and a shortage of staff. We'll have to wait and see what the outcome of the case is and what the TO's will want to do for their guests . . . It may be nothing at all . . . but I doubt that.
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I'm still not buying the whole safety thing - if safety is that important, why don't the french require people to pass a ski test before they're allowed out on the mountain on their own? that fact that the merkins and canucks offer hosting like this as part of the service offered by the resort leads me to believe that they look at this in a different light to the french
but hey, I'm just a punter, what do I know? I do know I won't be paying for hosting services like this
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You know it makes sense.
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Masque, but an independent will have the same problem with the law/ESF.
I suspect that right now the ESF is coming up with a relevant qualification course, that only they can do, that has to be renewed every season, and is not cheap.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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further quote from the articla
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A judgement will be handed down on February 18th and if it goes against Le Ski we understand the company will consider appealing to a higher court.
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I would expect a right of appeal; so may drag on until the end of the season
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't understand what ESF think they are going to get out of taking this action. They certainly won't gain any additional business. If anything they will see a reduction in UK TOs using them for lessons. This will probably give independent ski schools a big boost.
I think it very unlikely there will be anything put in place to replace the hosting service, this will put some off French resorts.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| ... But an L2 w/TT is legaly allowed to work in France. |
For a ski school.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Correct
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, interesting . . . There's more legal shenanigans in that too. I can see some form of ski school franchise system to supply TOs with contract hosts . . . blue sky thinking here.
The TOs are not going to want to lose a service that apparently is well received by their guests. I think it's also a draw for many of their employees to come and be one and share other duties in the chalet/hotel . . . that may also shrink the staff pool.
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Of course what we'll probably find is lots of casual work locals wearing an ESF beanie touting their services door to door round the TOs for 15Eu a guest 
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| Masque wrote: |
| I can see some form of ski school franchise system to supply TOs with contract hosts |
I think only the high end tour operators will have enough margin to contract instructors from the local ski school to provide ski hosting services. I suspect that if this case sets a precedent which is enforced the majority of the TOs will just drop their hosting service in most French resorts.
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rob@rar, that could have an interesting effect on TO staff recruitment for the French resorts
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And doesn't the ski school need a minimum number of et passed instructors per stagiere (spelling maybe wrong !!!)
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 9-01-13 22:20; edited 1 time in total
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If I were a TO I'd look on it as a way to save on some wages.
Although hosts probably get paid sod all.
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FAQ
) in the smaller resorts is the resort Mayor, his brother owns the lift company, his other brother is in charge of the ski school, his son has a hire shop or two, their 3rd cousin by their brothers dad owns the mountain restaurants.
But an L2 w/TT is legaly allowed to work in France. There are insurance and liability issues but they purport to 'teaching'. I infer from the ESF position that they consider hosting/leading as a professional service (on piste). They're not going to make it more onerous than a teaching qualification. They'll want to screw money out of the TOs but I sense that as long as one meets or exceeds the professional standards to work in France there won't be a problem . . . grumbling yes . . . It would be interesting to see the hours worked by the various grades of ESF instructor. I wonder if this is all driven by there being too many junior teachers and they're sitting around so would like to be busy escorting chubby brits around the hill?
